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Thread: In a Copy Cat League, What Does Vegas and Washington Mean for the Rangers?

  1. #21
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    That cohesion-factor or ‘chemistry’ as we all like to call it is THE catalyst IMO. Just about any NHL has a legit shot now. Parity is league-wide.

    When a group decides ‘this is it’ and plays for one another no matter how cliche that sounds, good things - possibly great things - can happen. You could see it on Ovie’s face and by the effort of everyone’s shifts. They just wanted it more and paid the price doing whatever was necessary.

    I want to see our guys develop that hunger and that mindset. Sure, you need talent but you also need commitment and heart. We’ve been lacking some of each.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    No, I think the Caps traded or signed those four guys because they're good hockey players, and good hockey players are found most often via the first round. Great ones are most often found via the top of it.

    Whether you make the pick or acquire the player, the trend is undeniable.


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    The Rangers have had between 7-10 1st rd picks on their roster for at least 5 years, 1 being a #1 over all. Sometimes the ingredients are missing spices, sometimes the chef sucks. Numbers are indeed black and white, but the games aren’t programmed, played, and simulated on Xbox.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    That doesn't matter. Where they were taken does. The more first-round picks you have in your lineup, the better your chances of being good. The higher they're taken, the better the chances of them being really good.


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    Did you look at the Rangers rosters over the years? Bunch of 1st rounders.

    Nash, 1st overall
    Ryan McDonagh,12th overall
    Staal 12th overall
    Derick Brassard, 6th overall
    Kreider, 19th overall
    Grabner, 14th overall
    Dylan McIlrath, 10th overall
    Zib, 6th overall
    Hayes, 24th overall
    Skjei, 28th overall
    DeAngelo, 19th overall
    JT Miller 15th overall
    Nick Jensen 29th overall
    Matt Puempel, 24th overall
    Brendan Smith, 27th overall
    Peter Holland, 15th overall
    Daniel Paille, 20th overall
    Chris Summers, 29th overall

    I had a point about these players, but I am hung over and forgot, but it's probably something along the lines of most rosters are made up of first round picks. Obviously not all are drafted by said teams. Nor does it guarantee any success

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Did you look at the Rangers rosters over the years? Bunch of 1st rounders.

    Nash, 1st overall
    Ryan McDonagh,12th overall
    Staal 12th overall
    Derick Brassard, 6th overall
    Kreider, 19th overall
    Grabner, 14th overall
    Dylan McIlrath, 10th overall
    Zib, 6th overall
    Hayes, 24th overall
    Skjei, 28th overall
    DeAngelo, 19th overall
    JT Miller 15th overall
    Nick Jensen 29th overall
    Matt Puempel, 24th overall
    Brendan Smith, 27th overall
    Peter Holland, 15th overall
    Daniel Paille, 20th overall
    Chris Summers, 29th overall

    I had a point about these players, but I am hung over and forgot, but it's probably something along the lines of most rosters are made up of first round picks. Obviously not all are drafted by said teams. Nor does it guarantee any success
    Dude, 1st round or not, you can’t include a bunch of those dust bunnies. That’s a slightly different topic. Da fuck anyone going with Holland and McIlrath? You left out a lot more capable guys like Pulliot, and put in Matt Ass Pimple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Dude, 1st round or not, you can’t include a bunch of those dust bunnies. That’s a slightly different topic. Da fuck anyone going with Holland and McIlrath? You left out a lot more capable guys like Pulliot, and put in Matt Ass Pimple.
    Point is they are 1st rounders. And they all combined for zero cups with the Rangers. Throw as many on the list as you want. Still zero cups.

    The thinking that a roster filled with first round picks equals a cup isn't a formula that is automatic. Most rosters are filled with 1sts.

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    I never once said it's an automatic. I said it improves the odds of you winning.


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    Yea and when Detroit was winning, their best players were not first rounders.

    Talent can be found anywhere in the draft. What this thread tells me is that the Rangers don't draft well and they should revamp their scouting Dept.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    I never once said it's an automatic. I said it improves the odds of you winning.


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    Well yeah, good players do that. What I’m saying is the best players don’t always make up the best team, it’s the players that play their best together. It took Ovechkin 13 fuckin years, and they were 1 OT goal away from probably losing in round 1. It’s so easy to Monday morning qb. Truth is, no matter how good a McDavid, Crosby, Ovi, Malkin, Kane, etc ... look at 16-17 years old, your plan can not be to suck and hope to get that 1 possible generational talent. Shit, most of those teams sucked accidentally until those prospects became a year away from reality, so then the thought process was “fuck it, we’ve been bad for this long, what’s 1 more year?” Chicago was awful since Toews and Kane were bantams. It’s just an attempt to get lucky enough to get the no brainer draft picks. Anything beyond that is work, and some luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    I never once said it's an automatic. I said it improves the odds of you winning.


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    But you post this year's Caps roster to show that they are filled with 1st rounders...

    You didn't say that it's automatic nor did you say it improves the chances. You kinda left it open to impression after saying it wasn't just coincidence that the Caps roster is filled with 1sts.... The impression I got was that you're saying that teams need first round talent to win a cup. Which, obviously is true in that you need talented players.

    As I have stated, most teams are built around 1st round talent. The Caps roster make up isn't much different than the rest of the league, or the Rangers rosters of the last 4 years. Who ISN'T building around 1st round talent?

    Also, is the Caps roster from this year much different than last year? By your logic (how I perceive it anyway, not trying to put words in your mouth) about their roster, they should have won last year too.

    IMO, winning the cup has too many variables to try to emulate. I think luck, momentum, and hard work in the right moment is a bigger part of winning than the roster itself. I think the Rangers rode that wave for awhile and the luck and momentum ran it's course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Yea and when Detroit was winning, their best players were not first rounders.

    Talent can be found anywhere in the draft. What this thread tells me is that the Rangers don't draft well and they should revamp their scouting Dept.
    This is the issue, though there have been some changes to it.

  11. #31
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    Maybe the point should be not to discount first round picks whether ninth or 28th. Trading them away five straight years is almost a guaranteed killer for any organization. I’m loving all the picks we have this draft and I don’t want to trade any of them unless it’s a no brainer. This is as deep a draft as any in a long time says the people who know. The rangers have 7 picks in the top 90. They may not get their future star to build around but at the very least they should come away with solid chunk of their core for the next decade. This draft is crucial. The more darts the better.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Maybe the point should be not to discount first round picks whether ninth or 28th. Trading them away five straight years is almost a guaranteed killer for any organization. I’m loving all the picks we have this draft and I don’t want to trade any of them unless it’s a no brainer. This is as deep a draft as any in a long time says the people who know. The rangers have 7 picks in the top 90. They may not get their future star to build around but at the very least they should come away with solid chunk of their core for the next decade. This draft is crucial. The more darts the better.
    I agree with this. There are so many examples of late 1st round picks that wound up being studs, just like there are examples of top 10 picks who wound up busting. A guy like Evgeny Kuznetsov was a 26th pick for example.

    There is also the factor of the Rangers historically missing A LOT with top 10 picks in the draft. Perhaps an anomaly, but it shows the risk behind throwing everything behind a single pick. If you're wrong, it sets you back years. I'd rather have "more darts" as Fat put it, than throwing all of my eggs into one basket hoping a bust isn't taken. None of these guys are no brainers - it's not a Crosby/Ovechkin/etc. situation here outside of Dahlin.

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    Before you read a whole lot into the Caps winning, remember that if Cam Atkinson's OT shot off the post in Game 3 of the first round goes in, the Caps are down 3-0, lose in the first round, are declared proven toast, and are dismantled. The lesson from that would be 180 degrees different from the Caps winning the Cup, and it was one post that determined between polar opposite results. I do think there is a lesson of don't be too quick to burn it down if you lose in the playoffs for a few years. As for Vegas, their situation is just so different that I don't think it offers the Rangers lesson. You can lose for 54 plus years waiting for various William Karlson's to break out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Yea and when Detroit was winning, their best players were not first rounders.

    Talent can be found anywhere in the draft. What this thread tells me is that the Rangers don't draft well and they should revamp their scouting Dept.
    Someone always has to bring up that one time back in 2007 that it worked out differently than the other 11 of 13 most recent Stanley Cups won by teams that hit rock bottom, most for multiple seasons, before winning a Cup.
    “Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― Neil Gaiman,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sod16 View Post
    Before you read a whole lot into the Caps winning, remember that if Cam Atkinson's OT shot off the post in Game 3 of the first round goes in, the Caps are down 3-0, lose in the first round, are declared proven toast, and are dismantled. The lesson from that would be 180 degrees different from the Caps winning the Cup, and it was one post that determined between polar opposite results. I do think there is a lesson of don't be too quick to burn it down if you lose in the playoffs for a few years. As for Vegas, their situation is just so different that I don't think it offers the Rangers lesson. You can lose for 54 plus years waiting for various William Karlson's to break out.
    That actually proves the point, not disproves it. The Capitals have been in contention for a lot of seasons, but one bad bounce or an inch here or there can certainly turn a series. The more kicks at the can you get, the better your chances. The more top players you draft, the more kicks at the can you get. And the best chance to get top players in the draft is at the top of it.

    I see in this thread (not your post, Sod16) a lot of pointing to the anamolies, the 26th overall pick that ends up better than the 20 picks selected before them. Or the top-5 picks that bust. Some is scouting, but some is also just dumb luck. There is significantly more luck at top of the draft. And the more tickets you have in the draft, particularly in the first two rounds, the better chance luck lands in your favor.

    I don't think anyone's preaching a magic, "if you do this, you will 100% win a Cup". Detroit and Boston bucked that trend for sure. Edmonton, Buffalo and Toronto have sucked and not won. It took Washington what, 13 years to finally do it? But they did.
    “Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― Neil Gaiman,

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    In a Copy Cat League, What Does Vegas and Washington Mean for the Rangers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    That doesn't matter. Where they were taken does. The more first-round picks you have in your lineup, the better your chances of being good. The higher they're taken, the better the chances of them being really good.


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    So explain to me again why you didn’t want Tampa to beat the Caps to give us another 1st rounder next year?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    That actually proves the point, not disproves it. The Capitals have been in contention for a lot of seasons, but one bad bounce or an inch here or there can certainly turn a series. The more kicks at the can you get, the better your chances. The more top players you draft, the more kicks at the can you get. And the best chance to get top players in the draft is at the top of it.

    I see in this thread (not your post, Sod16) a lot of pointing to the anamolies, the 26th overall pick that ends up better than the 20 picks selected before them. Or the top-5 picks that bust. Some is scouting, but some is also just dumb luck. There is significantly more luck at top of the draft. And the more tickets you have in the draft, particularly in the first two rounds, the better chance luck lands in your favor.

    I don't think anyone's preaching a magic, "if you do this, you will 100% win a Cup". Detroit and Boston bucked that trend for sure. Edmonton, Buffalo and Toronto have sucked and not won. It took Washington what, 13 years to finally do it? But they did.
    Meh, but on the other hand you have the Rangers whom didn't have top tier draft picks and have been the more successful team in the playoffs over that same time period. One of those bounces or inches and the Rangers have a cup or 2.

    Are there any teams NOT built or building around top tier draft picks? Who's disputing that you need to draft or trade good?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodka Drunkenski View Post
    So explain to me again why you didn’t want Tampa to beat the Caps to give us another 1st rounder next year?
    Because the hockey fan in me wanted to, and is glad to have seen, Ovechkin win. Like I've said for years, I'm a hockey fan first and a Rangers fan second. If the Rangers ceased to exist tomorrow I'm not tapping out on the sport.


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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Someone always has to bring up that one time back in 2007 that it worked out differently than the other 11 of 13 most recent Stanley Cups won by teams that hit rock bottom, most for multiple seasons, before winning a Cup.
    Yea, except this isn't that.

    You guys also drone on about tanking a majority of teams who got top 3 picks just legitimately sucked and we're trying to. You think Chicago was trying to be bad to get Toews and Kane?

    I guess you get to have your spin when it helps you, but you're quick on the trigger when someone else points out the flaw in your board-adopted air-tight logic.

    Detroit was competitive for years with a core of late round picks. 5 posts down you talk about the most kicks at the can being what's important. Make up your mind.

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