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Thread: Doubtful Spooner is in Rangers' Long-Term Plans

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR Cafe Joe View Post
    100% correct. It'll take at least 3 years to see what Hajek and Howden have to offer and at least 5 years until we see what comes of the other 1st round pick.
    How Howden and Hajek turn out is a key measurement in judging the trade. We were able to scout them and traded for them. As for the picks? The picks are the picks. If it turns out that we make bad 1st and 2nd round selections that is on scouting/drafting and really is no longer a measure of the trade. Everyone knows there will be NHL talent in the entire first round this year and it is up to us to make a good selection or use the pick to improve other assets or areas of the team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    How Howden and Hajek turn out is a key measurement in judging the trade. We were able to scout them and traded for them. As for the picks? The picks are the picks. If it turns out that we make bad 1st and 2nd round selections that is on scouting/drafting and really is no longer a measure of the trade. Everyone knows there will be NHL talent in the entire first round this year and it is up to us to make a good selection or use the pick to improve other assets or areas of the team.
    Agree with almost everything you've said here on the issue in this post and others. The only thing I feel differently about is it's splitting hairs saying that if they blow the picks it's no longer a measure of the trade because that's on the scouts etc. It's the same front office/organization and if they piss away the picks it's still a factor in the return for some quality players we moved. The end result would be bad and that's all that matters.

    As for Brooks I wouldn't expect anything but crap most of the time, he didn't disappoint here.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsrangers View Post
    Agree with almost everything you've said here on the issue in this post and others. The only thing I feel differently about is it's splitting hairs saying that if they blow the picks it's no longer a measure of the trade because that's on the scouts etc. It's the same front office/organization and if they piss away the picks it's still a factor in the return for some quality players we moved. The end result would be bad and that's all that matters.

    As for Brooks I wouldn't expect anything but crap most of the time, he didn't disappoint here.
    So true, as far as evaluating mgmt, as a whole. Our ability to compete at the highest levels and the end results is all that matters.

    I don't mean to be splitting hairs, but only when it comes to evaluating the trade with Tampa (or any individual trade analysis) should we consider the pick we received, not the player we selected with the pick. We can't really evaluate the Tampa trade (a deadline deal not a draft day one) based on the idea that we took a bust and the next 3 picks were all quality NHL players. That just means good trade, horrible scouting and drafting.

    When running a big org it is important to be able to evaluate and LEARN what one does well and what we suck at, or somewhere in between. Sometimes conflating a whole bunch of issues, responsibilities and analysis' results in continuous bad assessments and decisions.

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    You never can judge a trade until some time down the road, but we were a little to anxious to make it, we showed our hand, and I think Tampa was able to take advantage of that. A package of McD and Miller should have gotten us a proven young stud defenseman, not a maybe in the future stud defenseman.

    At this early point, the Nash and Grabner trades look much better.

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    I think there's a good chance we over-valued McD.

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    Too many miles on McD
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    Let's Go Rangers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I think there's a good chance we over-valued McD.
    I agree, he hasn't really done anything in Tampa either since the trade.

  8. #28
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    McDonagh was hurt when we traded him and had been trending downward steadily for three seasons. We definitely overvalued him. Just because you're the cream of the crop when that crop consists of a trash heap doesn't mean you're worth that to another team. McDonagh was a big fish in a small pond, and on any contender he's a big fish in an ocean filled with sharks.

    That said, I disliked trading Miller when we did, and I dislike it even more now. He wasn't "part of the problem," to me at least. He could've been part of the solution. JG wants to address toughness but trades the only forward other than McLeod willing to get his nose dirty? Yeah, makes sense.

    Until those locker room malcontent stories are substantiated, trading Miller was, still is and will be a bad move. Especially if the deal was in place without him and we tacked him on to get Namestnikov. That's even worse.

    All of this being said, don't sleep on Hajek. He has the ability to be as good, if not better, than Mac ever was.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Lothbrok View Post
    All of this being said, don't sleep on Hajek. He has the ability to be as good, if not better, than Mac ever was.
    Well that would change everything. Wish I had that level of confidence. McD before the miles and injuries was a legit #1.

    Looking forward to seeing Hajek in Hartford. Howden, as well.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Lothbrok View Post
    McDonagh was hurt when we traded him and had been trending downward steadily for three seasons. We definitely overvalued him. Just because you're the cream of the crop when that crop consists of a trash heap doesn't mean you're worth that to another team. McDonagh was a big fish in a small pond, and on any contender he's a big fish in an ocean filled with sharks.

    That said, I disliked trading Miller when we did, and I dislike it even more now. He wasn't "part of the problem," to me at least. He could've been part of the solution. JG wants to address toughness but trades the only forward other than McLeod willing to get his nose dirty? Yeah, makes sense.

    Until those locker room malcontent stories are substantiated, trading Miller was, still is and will be a bad move. Especially if the deal was in place without him and we tacked him on to get Namestnikov. That's even worse.

    All of this being said, don't sleep on Hajek. He has the ability to be as good, if not better, than Mac ever was.

    Love this post.

    I sure hope it was not Alain Vigneault's unhappiness with Miller that brought about the trade.
    I fugure they know something about him we don't, but that still doesn't stop me being pissed off about trading Miller, a hard nosed skill player, when we are a squad increasingly devoid of grit among the top-9 forwards. That said, I did not see much of the last Tampa series, so I have not seen much of how he has been playing in general, aside from an offensive highlight here or there.
    If n ya gots jowls, they might as well be furry ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Well that would change everything. Wish I had that level of confidence. McD before the miles and injuries was a legit #1.

    Looking forward to seeing Hajek in Hartford. Howden, as well.
    Definitely looking forward to seeing those two and Yegor Whatsisname as well.
    Hoping we also get Shestyorkin worked into the team G platoon sometime soon, although part time duty may not be enough, so I guess I gotta be patient.
    If n ya gots jowls, they might as well be furry ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Respecttheblue View Post
    Love this post.

    I sure hope it was not Alain Vigneault's unhappiness with Miller that brought about the trade.
    I fugure they know something about him we don't, but that still doesn't stop me being pissed off about trading Miller, a hard nosed skill player, when we are a squad increasingly devoid of grit among the top-9 forwards. That said, I did not see much of the last Tampa series, so I have not seen much of how he has been playing in general, aside from an offensive highlight here or there.
    Miller was the epitome of the AV era.
    A guy that could do everything, yet tried to do nothing.


    And there is no chance AV had any say in the trades made at the deadline.
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by Respecttheblue View Post
    Definitely looking forward to seeing those two and Yegor Whatsisname as well.
    Hoping we also get Shestyorkin worked into the team G platoon sometime soon, although part time duty may not be enough, so I guess I gotta be patient.
    Call him Shesty and let him know he already has a nickname in NY. Yes, be patient, he has another year left in the KHL.

  14. #34
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    The problem isn’t trading miller it’s the seemingly rush to trade him for what seems to be an underwhelming return. There is no reason why they couldn’t move him at the draft or this summer. People are speaking of what it would take to move up in the draft. I would think miller and the 9 would be enticing. To me that’s is a better return than Namestikov.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    The problem isn’t trading miller it’s the seemingly rush to trade him for what seems to be an underwhelming return. There is no reason why they couldn’t move him at the draft or this summer. People are speaking of what it would take to move up in the draft. I would think miller and the 9 would be enticing. To me that’s is a better return than Namestikov.
    ^ That's it in a nutshell.

    It's obvious Mike had good info on this and the Rangers had decided to trade him. It seems one of two things happened based on listening to Yzerman and Gorton (among other involved) in interviews. Yzerman said, Gorton brought up JT well into the McD talks. Gorton responded in his presser that Yzerman had shown interest in JT, in the past.

    1. The team was in such a hurry to get him moved that they pushed to include him into the McD deal. It is easy to assume there were plenty of assets they wanted from Tampa and JT would increase the return.

    2. Or it was more specific. Very possible Gorton and Co wanted a particular asset or two and Yzerman was driving a hard bargain. Yzerman had interest in JT, so Gorton introduces JT into the equation thinking he will make a big difference. I speculate (based on things said afterwards) that Yzerman was very resistant on both Hajek and Foote. The inclusion of JT may have been necessary to get Hajek. They also needed to get an experienced forward back to trade Names. Thus, the Rangers obviously saw a bit of value in Names.

    Fatty, my problem is patience and strategic vision. Jt would have been a helluva a chip in the off season. More teams would be interested and bidding. He wasn't a pending UFA. However, I can see where the Rangers felt they were getting value by adding him to the deal. and moving the rebuild forward with expediency.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 05-15-2018 at 12:18 PM.

  16. #36
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    Essentially, it is hard to determine how underwhelming the return is unless we know what the deal would have looked like with just McD. Obviously JT allowed Tampa to trade Names, but I'd guess there was something else. Maybe Hajek versus a lesser valued prospect. Or the conditional pick. Who knows besides mgmt?

    If it was what pried away Hajek and he turns into a top pair guy here, then the return becomes pretty damn good.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 05-15-2018 at 12:33 PM.

  17. #37
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    Yeah but mcd still has a year left too. The rangers were under no circumstances stuck into having to trade either. Tampa was the one trying to improve their cup chances. If mcd on his own can’t pry Hajek then yzerman should have been told to fuck off. If Holden is worth a 3 then mcd is worth a 30-31, a conditional 2, and two b prospects. Hajek is not a slam dunk prospect at all. He’s not even top 50. So I’m sorry but there was no logical reason why they had to make a move with those two players at the deadline. I’m ok with the return for mcd as the prospect and pick line of the deal. That leaves J.T. for Namestikov. Either the whole deal sucks or The J.T. part does. End result is that much like hagelin, Talbot, and raanta the return was weak.

    I’d be curious to what J.T. value is now? It’s hard to imagine if tampa made him available they wouldnt get a mid to late first back

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Yeah but mcd still has a year left too. The rangers were under no circumstances stuck into having to trade either. Tampa was the one trying to improve their cup chances. If mcd on his own can’t pry Hajek then yzerman should have been told to fuck off. If Holden is worth a 3 then mcd is worth a 30-31, a conditional 2, and two b prospects. Hajek is not a slam dunk prospect at all. He’s not even top 50. So I’m sorry but there was no logical reason why they had to make a move with those two players at the deadline. I’m ok with the return for mcd as the prospect and pick line of the deal. That leaves J.T. for Namestikov. Either the whole deal sucks or The J.T. part does. End result is that much like hagelin, Talbot, and raanta the return was weak.

    I’d be curious to what J.T. value is now? It’s hard to imagine if tampa made him available they wouldnt get a mid to late first back
    You're forgetting Howden, who is the better prospect in the trade. Also I think you're forgetting the whole letter and moving pieces to restart the team. They moved McD
    and JT because, in part, they didn't see them as part of the core moving forward. I'm not saying they necessarily got good value in the deal but I still think it's way too early to tell for sure.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    You're forgetting Howden, who is the better prospect in the trade. Also I think you're forgetting the whole letter and moving pieces to restart the team. They moved McD
    and JT because, in part, they didn't see them as part of the core moving forward. I'm not saying they necessarily got good value in the deal but I still think it's way too early to tell for sure.
    I’m not forgetting. Hajek was the target supposedly. Also I have no problem with trading them. They just didn’t have to do it by the deadline if the deal wasn’t right. We will see. Like I already said I’m on with mcd for picks and prospects, even b prospects which they are. Miller for Namestnikov will never make sense no matter the circumstances. Miller has/ had more value then that and would have fetched more st the draft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Yeah but mcd still has a year left too. The rangers were under no circumstances stuck into having to trade either. Tampa was the one trying to improve their cup chances. If mcd on his own can’t pry Hajek then yzerman should have been told to fuck off. If Holden is worth a 3 then mcd is worth a 30-31, a conditional 2, and two b prospects. Hajek is not a slam dunk prospect at all. He’s not even top 50. So I’m sorry but there was no logical reason why they had to make a move with those two players at the deadline. I’m ok with the return for mcd as the prospect and pick line of the deal. That leaves J.T. for Namestikov. Either the whole deal sucks or The J.T. part does. End result is that much like hagelin, Talbot, and raanta the return was weak.

    I’d be curious to what J.T. value is now? It’s hard to imagine if tampa made him available they wouldnt get a mid to late first back
    I'd like to respond on two levels.

    The first, I agree the overall return was lighter than hoped. Even after I tempered my expectations (no Sergachev for instance), it feels like Yzerman did very well. Particularly once we found out JT was part of the deal.

    That we were unable to get either Taylor Raddysh or Boris Katchouk (who was a monster in the playoffs) in that deal was shocking. We should have even given up on the condition on the 2019 pick and insisted on one of them.

    That said, we differ on a second aspect. The McD deal needed to happen and you are underrating Hajek, Howden and getting their #1, which looks like #29 but could have been better. Neither are B prospects, don't confuse them with the scraps we got from Boston.

    Howden, 27th overall in 2016 and has progressed nicely and appears on track to becoming a 2 or 3C in the NHL. This year he scored 75 points in 49 games, then had a strong playoff. Good leader, clutch scoring and all around game. He has raised his floor enough that it is hard to imagine him not meeting his baseline expectations.

    Hajek went 10 picks later (37th) but is also raising his floor as he appears to be on a legit path to eventually play a solid role here. Recently turned 20, he is already 6'2" 205lbs and plays an all around role on D. Looked good in U20 and has the tools. Not a sure thing, but he has improved his value since his draft. He'll get prime minutes in Hartford, as will Howden. I expect they'll both be Ranger regulars sometime during the 2019-20 season.

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