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Thread: What the Lightning’s Success Says About the New York Rangers

  1. #21
    Senior Member Squirt Division Mr.wiskers's Avatar
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    Oh, sorry Messier Retired in 2004—why didn’t you just correct me


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    I did. Then made a Messier joke.
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    Plus if you make a mistake such as not realizing Messier played his last season with Vancouver 6 years before AV was made the head coach, you should expect a little bit of ribbing
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Based on what? Let's just say Crosby is the best center and Stepan is the 20th-best.

    If Crosby has 90 points and Stepan has 55, it's a 35-goal difference. Think Henrik didn't save 35 goals over whoever was #20 in a given year? At 30 shots a game, the difference between a .925 sv% and a .900 sv%, in 60 starts, 45 goals (135 vs. 180). So I don't really get what this comparison means.

    Also, any NHL skater can get hot.
    You can’t compare positions with ranking them in that form. More C’s play than goalies do. But for discussion purposes, if Crosby is on your roster instead of _____, 2 things are highly in your favor:
    1. A much higher percentage of scoring a goal
    2. A much high percentage the other team won’t have the puck.

    I’d rather have Crosby and fuckin Tokarski over Lundqvist and Zibs or Stepan.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    You can’t compare positions with ranking them in that form. More C’s play than goalies do. But for discussion purposes, if Crosby is on your roster instead of _____, 2 things are highly in your favor:
    1. A much higher percentage of scoring a goal
    2. A much high percentage the other team won’t have the puck.

    I’d rather have Crosby and fuckin Tokarski over Lundqvist and Zibs or Stepan.
    Completely agreed. It's like puck on a string with someone like Crosby. But your roster does still need to be competent to limit chances against. Just look at Edmonton. Not even a 100+ point McDavid could save them from Talbot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    But, to be fair, the “other” teams have that goaltending.
    Rinne, Hellebuyck, Fleury, Vasilevskiy and Holtby are all at the same level as Hank at his best.

    The fact is the ex Rangers crew at Tampa are all great supporting cast players but they don’t win championships without elite talent in front of them. Neither does a great goalie. Put guys like Stamkos, Kucherov and Hedman into those Rangers teams and they’d be very close to going all the way.
    I think you could also argue the Rangers never had a line like the Palat/Gourde/Point line during those runs.
    Hank is the best game 7 goalie ever. Rinne just got pulled in less than 11 minutes.

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Completely agreed. It's like puck on a string with someone like Crosby. But your roster does still need to be competent to limit chances against. Just look at Edmonton. Not even a 100+ point McDavid could save them from Talbot.
    Yeah, of course, but if you’re giving me the option to start my team with Crosby + random tendy vs. Lundqvist + Zib, I’m taking Crosby every single time. If your roster is weak, your goalie can only do so much. A goalie’s game changing saves will eventually even out with bad goals and mediocre play in front of him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    none of this matters when it comes to playoffs.
    Guys gotta show up. All of them.

    Guys get the superstar label when they show up when it means the most.

    Your 50-point Stepan could be your 1.3 ppg Toews during a run and you get the cup.
    Nash 10 points in 25 games
    Richards 12 in 25
    Stepan 15 in 24
    St Louis 15 in 25
    Brassard 12 in 23
    Zucc 13 in 25

    If your top guys are scoring points, it allows the rest of the team to do what they do best, instead of trying to change their game to compensate for others. TB has a well built line up and guys can play to their ability.
    How anyone can say Hank didn't make a significant difference when this was the goal support he got, and the Rangers stroll racked up playoff wins, blows my mind.

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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    How anyone can say Hank didn't make a significant difference when this was the goal support he got, and the Rangers stroll racked up playoff wins, blows my mind.

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    Who said he didn’t make a difference?
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Yeah, of course, but if you’re giving me the option to start my team with Crosby + random tendy vs. Lundqvist + Zib, I’m taking Crosby every single time. If your roster is weak, your goalie can only do so much. A goalie’s game changing saves will eventually even out with bad goals and mediocre play in front of him.
    Agreed.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    How anyone can say Hank didn't make a significant difference when this was the goal support he got, and the Rangers stroll racked up playoff wins, blows my mind.

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    Yea and moral of the story is it doesn't matter who your goalie is if you can't score.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Yeah, of course, but if you’re giving me the option to start my team with Crosby + random tendy vs. Lundqvist + Zib, I’m taking Crosby every single time. If your roster is weak, your goalie can only do so much. A goalie’s game changing saves will eventually even out with bad goals and mediocre play in front of him.
    This isnt a fair comparison
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    This isnt a fair comparison
    Why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    This isnt a fair comparison
    Positional value is. The marginal utility of a top goalie compared to an average goalie isn't that much of a difference. Really over the course of a season, are we taking about 5 or 6 goals, may be the difference of 4/5 points in the standings. You can get a competent goalie on the open trade market every year. The difference between Cosby and Zibs or other 1/2 centers is much bigger and more impactful. That's may be 20+ goals difference and 7-10 points in the standings(readily admit this is a well-considered guess). Somebody somewheRe already has or will do something like game share/wins over replacement value like baseball has. Spare what ever happens with Tavares, those top end centers do not shake free and teams do not trade them. Under a hard cap becomes even more obvious how much more valuable they are. Consider PP time, PK time and those points in the game you may double shift THAT GUY.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    What Tampa's success says about the Rangers is a simple answer: with an elite talent or two (Stamkos/Kucherov and Hedman), the Rangers, not the Lightning, would be Cup favorites.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    But, to be fair, the “other” teams have that goaltending.
    Rinne, Hellebuyck, Fleury, Vasilevskiy and Holtby are all at the same level as Hank at his best.

    The fact is the ex Rangers crew at Tampa are all great supporting cast players but they don’t win championships without elite talent in front of them. Neither does a great goalie. Put guys like Stamkos, Kucherov and Hedman into those Rangers teams and they’d be very close to going all the way.
    I think you could also argue the Rangers never had a line like the Palat/Gourde/Point line during those runs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Yea and moral of the story is it doesn't matter who your goalie is if you can't score.

    I see it much the same way as all three of y'alls.
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  16. #36
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    Fair points all around, but the fact is that it is REALLY tough to bottle the formula. The Rangers were very close against the Kings and if our best players played their best, they would have lifted the Cup.

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    Reminds me of the 94 Rangers with all the ex oilers
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    You can’t compare positions with ranking them in that form. More C’s play than goalies do. But for discussion purposes, if Crosby is on your roster instead of _____, 2 things are highly in your favor:
    1. A much higher percentage of scoring a goal
    2. A much high percentage the other team won’t have the puck.

    I’d rather have Crosby and fuckin Tokarski over Lundqvist and Zibs or Stepan.
    I mean, I agree. My point is just that it's impossible to say that hte gap between X and Y center is bigger than the gap between X and Y goalie.

    Also, Crosby isn't a particularly good possession player, fwiw.

  19. #39
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    I could be reading it completely wrong but his Corsi says otherwise? I can't believe I went against my morals and just brought Corsi into the conversation.
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  20. #40
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    No one gives a shit about Crosby's possession stats.
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