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Thread: Gorton: Team Lacked Toughness and Grit; Will Be Addressed

  1. #41
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    Right. The two are not mutually exclusive. The best teams have a healthy mix of both.


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    It has been really sad that Jesper Fast is our most physical player while our biggest guy (Hayes) plays like he's afraid to break a nail. Step played the same, as if he doesn't hit anyone then maybe he won't get hit. Hate lady bing hockey.

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    It's more than just hitting, or having "4th liners" - its a mentality. A team mentality.

    I've seen more camaraderie during a pick-up game.
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    It's more than just hitting, or having "4th liners" - its a mentality. A team mentality.

    I've seen more camaraderie during a pick-up game.
    Maloney goes nuts during the radio broadcasts.

    He bitched Miller because he snowed the goalie, someone back him a whack and as Miller skated away, the defender snuffed him. Miller did nothing, nor did anyone else.

    Maloney just goes, "My gosh." Then tore Miller a new asshole.

    No push back, or spine, at all.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Maloney goes nuts during the radio broadcasts.

    He bitched Miller because he snowed the goalie, someone back him a whack and as Miller skated away, the defender snuffed him. Miller did nothing, nor did anyone else.

    Maloney just goes, "My gosh." Then tore Miller a new asshole.

    No push back, or spine, at all.
    That's AV ingrained though. We know Miller can throw 'em if he has to.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphinity View Post
    That's AV ingrained though. We know Miller can throw 'em if he has to.
    For sure.

    Rick Nash used to walk away from the extra stuff all the time.

  7. #47
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    AV has to take a large part of the blame, but a lot of it is down to individuals as well.
    Like I said, Kreider is a big boy and powerful skater and should be dominating physically out there. Hayes as well, doesn’t use his size and strength anywhere near enough.
    It’s a bit embarrassing when you compare them to guys like Scheifele for instance.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphinity View Post
    That's AV ingrained though. We know Miller can throw 'em if he has to.
    That's not entirely AV though.

    What AV talked about was guys like Kreider and Smith getting "loose" and taking dumb penalties. I've also bitched when Zuccarello tries his Avery impression - the problem being, these guys arent Avery, and when they play with just "grit", they forget the game and are a detriment to the team.

    But if you have a coach saying, "be careful" followed by a Captain saying "stop it guys", you end up with a bunch of pussies. There is a small line, and it takes a great mind to understand it. Unfortunately, leadership wanted people to stay back, and they stayed too far behind the line.

    They are push overs. The entire season - way too easy to play against.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    For sure.

    Rick Nash used to walk away from the extra stuff all the time.

    That's because Rick Nash is a bitch boi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    What trade partners at the deadline were going to give up grit and toughness guys, that are actually worth anything, when gearing up for a playoff run? He brought in Spooner and Names because they were available and have value. Between those 2, Hayes, Zucc, and Kreider, I bet at least two are traded in the off season.
    I was thinking the same, Gorton was focused on asset mgmt in making those deals, even if there are things to like about each player, if they stay Rangers. Except I don't think Kreids is going anywhere. He's a top 6 power forward who fits our need for speed and grit. He also seemed to have another light bulb go off, after his surgery.

    My guess is one of Zuc, Spooner or Names (outside shot of Vesey, but he could be a good grit/skill project for our next coach) will be moved to either fill another need or upgrade one of our draft picks. Or one or more, plus picks/prospects could be packaged for a solid youngish dman, if the opportunity presents itself. I think we'll be looking and turning over rocks. Which is good. Moving up to #4 or #5 to nab Tkachuk would be a good way to address this issue too.

    One last comment (trying to mostly look forward), but this is the reason I was reluctant to move Miller. He has grit and skill and any new coach would make a big difference with guys like Miller and Vesey and Buch. And Hayes for different reasons. Miller and Vesey particularly. However, I assume Mikey was on point about mgmt's perception that he was too much of a douche or losing his commitment or whatever the attitude issue. Yet, I am not convinced they were right that he was too far gone. We'll see. Water under the bridge now. Though we still should have gotten one of the Saulte Ste. Marie forwards instead of the stupid conditional 2019 2nd. Credit to Yzerman.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 04-12-2018 at 03:52 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    For sure.

    Rick Nash used to walk away from the extra stuff all the time.
    but again, he should.
    We dont need him mucking it up, with his PK abilities, and his fragile brain - he should not be involved.

    He should have teammates that are cognizant of this.

    I'm a tiny ass dude, but if someone was doing that to my injured player, star player, important player - I'm in the middle.
    We never saw this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    That's not entirely AV though.

    What AV talked about was guys like Kreider and Smith getting "loose" and taking dumb penalties. I've also bitched when Zuccarello tries his Avery impression - the problem being, these guys arent Avery, and when they play with just "grit", they forget the game and are a detriment to the team.

    But if you have a coach saying, "be careful" followed by a Captain saying "stop it guys", you end up with a bunch of pussies. There is a small line, and it takes a great mind to understand it. Unfortunately, leadership wanted people to stay back, and they stayed too far behind the line.

    They are push overs. The entire season - way too easy to play against.
    I don't know. I can't point to anything specific because it would take too much time, but I recall, especially early in his tenure, him making lots of mentions about not getting caught up in after the whistle stuff. Surely leadership was culpable, but I think the coaching staff molds the leadership to an extent.

    Personally, I can sort of understand the mindset - you don't want your team taking stupid penalties - but I don't think it should be absolute, as we saw it was.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphinity View Post
    I don't know. I can't point to anything specific because it would take too much time, but I recall, especially early in his tenure, him making lots of mentions about not getting caught up in after the whistle stuff. Surely leadership was culpable, but I think the coaching staff molds the leadership to an extent.

    Personally, I can sort of understand the mindset - you don't want your team taking stupid penalties - but I don't think it should be absolute, as we saw it was.
    There is a difference between "not getting caught up" and being a bitch.


    I dont think it was an absolute. The one time we heard someone complain was when Smith got in a terribly timed fight, got beat up, lost the momentum, and lost the lead. A perfect example of when "not to get caught up".
    There were plenty of instances in the playoffs last year, when they were distracted by Gallagher and then fucking Neil. They completely forgot how to play hockey and were acting like mad 8 year olds. There is a huge difference.
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  14. #54
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    Without changing a whole bunch of parts it doesn't matter who coaches this team, their just baby shit soft. You can't teach guys to hit with a purpose, to not shy away from the chance to drill somebody cleanly. The majority of these guys won't face wash for fear of being punched in the face. It's a team full of purse carrying cardholders. The two up and coming kids that we're counting on fit right in. The look like they've seen a ghost.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsrangers View Post
    Without changing a whole bunch of parts it doesn't matter who coaches this team, their just baby shit soft. You can't teach guys to hit with a purpose, to not shy away from the chance to drill somebody cleanly. The majority of these guys won't face wash for fear of being punched in the face. It's a team full of purse carrying cardholders. The two up and coming kids that we're counting on fit right in. The look like they've seen a ghost.
    its a penalty, now.


    willingness - didnt have it.
    Takes 1 player to change the attitude and atmosphere of the lockerroom.
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    That's not entirely AV though.

    What AV talked about was guys like Kreider and Smith getting "loose" and taking dumb penalties. I've also bitched when Zuccarello tries his Avery impression - the problem being, these guys arent Avery, and when they play with just "grit", they forget the game and are a detriment to the team.

    But if you have a coach saying, "be careful" followed by a Captain saying "stop it guys", you end up with a bunch of pussies. There is a small line, and it takes a great mind to understand it. Unfortunately, leadership wanted people to stay back, and they stayed too far behind the line.

    They are push overs. The entire season - way too easy to play against.
    Some good points by you and Gravesy, but one point I disagree with is having the coach and capt send mixed messages. This is on AV, not McD.

    I think it is a little simpler. It was always about reducing dumb penalties, retaliatory or O zone penalties and gaining the advantage. However, as usual AV didn't have perspective and was closer to dogmatic than situational. During a long season the team needs to stand up for each other in a big way. Not stupid shit like slashing a guy well after a clean hard check, but for cheap shots or if a team takes the "hit the goalie" approach. Everyone scouts, and if the Jets or Kings or Caps think they are going to run you out of the building you may have an issue.

    Situational - In a game 1 or an early playoff game down 3 goals, it is time to deliver some pain and retaliation for earlier transgressions. Anyone who watched the games last night, was reminded how tough the checking becomes this time of year. Yet, it is also critical in the playoffs to make an overly physical team pay, by not taking the retaliatory penalties but taking the PP. If they are running our dmen deep every shift, be a fast team and move the puck and create more odd man rushes.

  17. #57
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    A lot of this attitude comes directly from AV. Itís not about being tough, itís about being too easy to play against.

    Too many players and prospects i saw play with a edge only to get neutered by AV and his culture.


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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphinity View Post
    I don't know. I can't point to anything specific because it would take too much time, but I recall, especially early in his tenure, him making lots of mentions about not getting caught up in after the whistle stuff. Surely leadership was culpable, but I think the coaching staff molds the leadership to an extent.

    Personally, I can sort of understand the mindset - you don't want your team taking stupid penalties - but I don't think it should be absolute, as we saw it was.
    ^^^ this. He became dogmatic and predictable. One of his bad tendencies. I think AV realizes a coach must grow and evolve, but he too stills falls back to old habits. He was an old school coach who adjusted after the Bruins taught him a few lessons, but then he'd veer back to the same ole. His idea of toughness is to be able to ice Tanner Glass or McLoud when things get rough. That does not make a tough team.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puck Head View Post
    A lot of this attitude comes directly from AV. It’s not about being tough, it’s about being too easy to play against.

    Too many players and prospects i saw play with a edge only to get neutered by AV and his culture.
    Absolutely. He never distinguished mistakes due to hard play and inexperience or bad timing from stupid mistakes. All "unnecessary" penalties seem to be grouped into the same bag. And if the party was a younger player, the reins get pulled in.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 04-12-2018 at 04:54 PM.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puck Head View Post
    A lot of this attitude comes directly from AV. It’s not about being tough, it’s about being too easy to play against.

    Too many players and prospects i saw play with a edge only to get neutered by AV and his culture.


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    The vagina of a captain made it 100x worse.
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

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