The Next Step: Some Hagelin/Leddy-Type Trades

For the first time, we're in a position to exploit someone else's cap issues. No, I'm not suggesting picking up some underachieving or declining 30 year old's albatross's contract. Rather, I'm talking about something parallel to the Haglin and Leddy trades of a few years back. No one wanted to get rid of Haglin, but he was due for a raise and we couldn't fit it in. There are other 23 to 27 year old players, often RFAs, on cap stressed teams that fall into the same category (Spooner may have been an example with Boston). I'd love to give up some B minus prospect like Emerson Etem or a Second Round Pick for a Carl Haglin or the used puck bags that the Islanders traded for Nick Leddy. Land a few guys like that and we're starting to form a roster.

Let's relieve the Islanders of future cap stress.

Absolutely. At the draft, I'm more than willing to eat another "bad" deal for more assets.

We don't need any more middle-six talent, especially not at the cost of a draft pick.

I imagine you could probably get something in return for absorbing Andrew MacDonald or Carl Soderberg. You can always bring back Callahan or Dubinsky. You can get back some good assets for absorbing a contract.

Leddy is a good example.

 

Hagelin isn't a very good example. He sucked in Anaheim and after initial success in Pitt after the trade, he has 14 goals and 45 points in 125 games over the last 2 years. In no way shape or from is he worth $4M per year.

I imagine you could probably get something in return for absorbing Andrew MacDonald or Carl Soderberg. You can always bring back Callahan or Dubinsky. You can get back some good assets for absorbing a contract.

Yea but that's not what the OP is really talking about I don't think lol

Yea but that's not what the OP is really talking about I don't think lol

 

I thought that's what Phil meant by his "bad" deals. Oh well. College kills brain cells.

Brick Bickell + Teuvo Teravainen = what the OP is talking about, I think. Taking on a bad contract to get a good player.

We don't need any more middle-six talent, especially not at the cost of a draft pick.

 

Amen to that.

 

If a Tavares is truly available, he's a fit for our dearth of top-3 talent.

Young enough at 27 years old, too, I believe.

Can you imagine what would happen with the Rangers-Islanders rivalry if JT were to sign with the Rangers? Stoked up for the next 100 years!

 

I didn't intend to really get into the merits of Carl Haglin or Nick Leddy. I'm merely trying to define a category of player, who is proving too expensive for a cap stressed team but not too expensive for a developing team. This is quite different from getting some good prospects by taking unmoveable (contracts like MacDonald, Staal, Ryan or Brendan Smith) in the deal. That's a different strategy and one that I'm less enthusiastic about but which could be explored.

 

Funny how recent developments have solidified the position of the player who had the least solid position six months ago, Marc Staal. Buying him out now would only succeed in moving half of his cap hit from a time when we can absorb it (now) to a time when it may be a real problem (a few years from now).

Brick Bickell + Teuvo Teravainen = what the OP is talking about' date=' I think. Taking on a bad contract to get a good player.[/quote']

Semantics, but he's just talking about poaching the rights a free agent that a team won't be able to afford. In Hags' case, it was just the rights and in Leddy's it was one season before RFA. It's about giving up something cheap for the rights to a player rather than getting a guy who is already signed.

 

There's merit to taking on a bad contract to get an asset, but I don't think that's what the OP was referring to.

Leddy is a good example.

 

Hagelin isn't a very good example. He sucked in Anaheim and after initial success in Pitt after the trade, he has 14 goals and 45 points in 125 games over the last 2 years. In no way shape or from is he worth $4M per year.

 

Sod great post, great thinking. We need to be opportunistic. Boychuk was a decent example too.

 

King, the subjective aspect of this opinion is so far off that it demonstrates you have not watched a lot of Pen games since Hags joined them. Unfortunately, I watched most of the Pens games after they acquired Hags during the 1st cup run. He was INSTRUMENTAL in that Cup and was the tipping point in the Pen's speed game, which started with Kessel and Daley, but when Hags and the Kids arrived mid year it turned a struggling team into the hottest team in the league. The other aspect was Fleury who also gets no credit from this board for that Cup, but I'll save that argument for the next person that did not watch Pitt but gives all the credit to Murray, who has also been key.

 

I've bit my tongue everytime you posted this kind of awful innaccurate assessment of Hags impact in Pitt. Finally want to set the record straight, but you probably thought his effectiveness here was minimal too. Most overarching, since Hag joined the Pens they've won 2 Cups in a row and are going for a 3rd. You think the Pens regret his contract? Have you seen Pitt's last few games? How many have you seen since xmas? Guess who has been elevated to the second line and absolutely killing it, partnering with Malkin? Guess who is their top PKer and shutdown forward and best forechecker? This stuff doesn't show in the stats. I know, defense isn't sexy.

 

Last year, during the season Hags was nursing an injury and struggles for a month or so. However, he came back to play an important role in the playoffs again. This year, he started slow offensively, but he has really found his game again. Recently, he's been dominant on possesssion and noticable every shift. There is no need to continue to go out of your way to malign the guy.

Hagelin is a 4th liner who looks a lot better b/c he plays with Malkin and Kessel.

 

He's not worth anywhere near $4m, so he's a bad example for what the OP is talking about - even if the approach is right.

Hanifin or trouba?

 

Lesser guys that are rfa on cap strapped teams

E Lindholm

Dumba

T rieder

Zucker

Nurse

Fabbri

Schmaltz

Hartman

Vatrano

Koekkoek

Montaur

 

Nothing sexy but some good young guys needing contracts on teams that have decisions to make.

I never said Hags was a bad/ineffective role player. I'm not maligning the guy. He's simply not worth $4M per year. If you swapped him with Fast right now the Pens would hardly notice. You want to be trading for RFA role players and signing them $4M per for 4 years, right now?

Hagelin is a 4th liner who looks a lot better b/c he plays with Malkin and Kessel.

 

He's not worth anywhere near $4m, so he's a bad example for what the OP is talking about - even if the approach is right.

 

Except you are wrong, he is not a 4th liner, both subjectively and objectively.

 

Hags must be the reason you think we disagree a lot. We'll never see eye to eye on this. Hags was ready to sign a 3 year 3.3 to 3.5 extension here and Cam Atkinson had set the mkt when his agent last called Sather. The Rangers made other players their priority. Never negotiated. It was a mistake. He got 4 from Anaheim, but he was very willing to take less from us.

 

Two respected hockey analysts just had this to say about Hags. First guy says something like, Hags is the best support player he can think of. The second guy follows by saying, yep he is the best and most valuable role player in the league.

 

I agree. The teams with players possessing those special intangibles, whether it is guys like -- Justin Williams, Brandon Saad, Hossa once traded to Chicago or Hags -- that have Championship supporting casts. I love Fast and I think he may get there, but his best hasn't matched any of Hags five best years. I do think Fast will keep getting better, but he is no where near as dynamic or impactual.

I vote with Giacomin re Hags. Tremendously valuable player. There are guys like that available who for contract/cap reasons can be had for bargain prices.

 

(I thought about mentioning Boychuck in the originally post as well, but he's been looking more like just a bad contract after a couple of good years.)

I never said Hags was a bad/ineffective role player. I'm not maligning the guy. He's simply not worth $4M per year. If you swapped him with Fast right now the Pens would hardly notice. You want to be trading for RFA role players and signing them $4M per for 4 years, right now?

 

Cool King, I get that we don't want Hags now, at that price, given we are rebuilding. I think Sod was talking Hags at 25/26. He is also thinking that we finally have space to take advantage of a few teams that will be forced to shed salary. Often those trades can get you a dollar for 60 cents. That could be worth a 2nd or 3rd rounder, as long as the player is part of the longer term, not a stop gap.

 

We have to see what we look like after the draft. If we have a really big hole on D for instance, we may need to try to find a top 4 Dman from a team in a cap crunch. Likely an RFA or someone already making 3-4 mil. Maybe we are better off trying to get Jon Moore in FA for ~3 mil. Or take a chance on an injured de Haan at a discount. We are gonna need a couple of value FA to supplement the holes in the roster. And there won't be many.

I vote with Giacomin re Hags. Tremendously valuable player. There are guys like that available who for contract/cap reasons can be had for bargain prices.

 

(I thought about mentioning Boychuck in the originally post as well, but he's been looking more like just a bad contract after a couple of good years.)

 

Actually Boychuk was their only good defender until he too got injured. When he and de haan went out the Isles D became the biggest shitshow I've seen in years. And we still couldn't beat them. Boychuk has been carrying Leddy. Leddy's game suffered when Boychuk was out for so long.

Come on dude, there is no way in hell you're honestly comparing Hagelin to those 4 other guys you mentioned in that post. All 4 of them have multiple 20+ goal 50+ point seasons. Hags never topped 20 goals or even 40 points. He's a great role player. Not worth $4M.

Except you are wrong, he is not a 4th liner, both subjectively and objectively.

 

Hags must be the reason you think we disagree a lot. We'll never see eye to eye on this. Hags was ready to sign a 3 year 3.3 to 3.5 extension here and Cam Atkinson had set the mkt when his agent last called Sather. The Rangers made other players their priority. Never negotiated. It was a mistake. He got 4 from Anaheim, but he was very willing to take less from us.

 

Two respected hockey analysts just had this to say about Hags. First guy says something like, Hags is the best support player he can think of. The second guy follows by saying, yep he is the best and most valuable role player in the league.

 

I agree. The teams with players possessing those special intangibles, whether it is guys like -- Justin Williams, Brandon Saad, Hossa once traded to Chicago or Hags -- that have Championship supporting casts. I love Fast and I think he may get there, but his best hasn't matched any of Hags five best years. I do think Fast will keep getting better, but he is no where near as dynamic or impactual.

We disagreed on Lindberg, but it's essentially the same disagreement. Cam Atkinson set the market only according to Hags agent, because in no way were they the same player. At the time, IIRC, Atkinson was a multi-year 20 goal scorer trending up and Hags had already peaked. Sather was right not to give Hags $4m, he was right not to give him $3, imo.

 

"Support player" and "Role player" means linemate-dependent 4th liner. He can't do what he does effectively if he's not playing with Malkin and Kessel. Hags has no offensive responsibility, so the thing he sucks at, he doesn't have to do. It's easy to be successful in that context. They are literally just asking him to chase pucks and backcheck. Easiest job in the NHL for a guy who can skate.

 

Hags isn't even in the same league as Williams and Hossa, so idk why you're including him with those guys. They're all, or were, good on their own. I think Fast is also a 4th liner and if they offered him $4m instead of $1.85, I'd be saying the same thing.

Cool King, I get that we don't want Hags now, at that price, given we are rebuilding. I think Sod was talking Hags at 25/26. He is also thinking that we finally have space to take advantage of a few teams that will be forced to shed salary. Often those trades can get you a dollar for 60 cents. That could be worth a 2nd or 3rd rounder, as long as the player is part of the longer term, not a stop gap.

 

We have to see what we look like after the draft. If we have a really big hole on D for instance, we may need to try to find a top 4 Dman from a team in a cap crunch. Likely an RFA or someone already making 3-4 mil. Maybe we are better off trying to get Jon Moore in FA for ~3 mil. Or take a chance on an injured de Haan at a discount. We are gonna need a couple of value FA to supplement the holes in the roster. And there won't be many.

 

The players those teams are shedding aren't the players we need...

 

So Trouba for instance. If the Jets move him to avoid cap issues, its going to be for far more than an Emerson Etem.

Maybe we are better off trying to get Jon Moore in FA for ~3 mil.

 

He's sure looks better in The House That Sharpe James Built than anyone we have on D at the moment. I liked him while he was here, although those majors/suspensions were ridiculous and now I get a bad vibe because every time you see a replay of the Martinez goal (if the remote isn't handy), Moore is in the picture.

Hanifin or trouba?

 

Lesser guys that are rfa on cap strapped teams

E Lindholm

Dumba

T rieder

Zucker

Nurse

Fabbri

Schmaltz

Hartman

Vatrano

Koekkoek

Montaur

 

Nothing sexy but some good young guys needing contracts on teams that have decisions to make.

 

Thanks for throwing those names out there. Montour is interesting. Maybe Minn with Zucker or Dumba, but they are going to fetch a haul. But a trade with Minny is a good target. Those two, Granlund, Coyle at a discount or others could fit if the price was right.

 

No to Hartman. Nurse is their best Dman and going nowhere given they need more D. Fabbri may never be the same, untradable until he plays again. Koekkoek has a chronic shoulder injury, not worth anything to us, but a flyer.

 

Can't see how to get Trouba, though I like the idea. Hayes, Tampa's 1st our 3rd and any one of our D prospects is about all we can afford. Someone else likely beats that deal.