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Thread: Price Set for Nash and Grabner

  1. #21
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    https://www.tsn.ca/cupboard-is-stock...nucks-1.989909


    I attached a link to TSN latest report of the top 50. Tolvanen is ranked #2 overall, so I think he's doing ok. There are some Rangers there so that is good.

    Also, if 2019 picks are what the Rangers acquire then so be it. This draft is stacked for sure but 2019 does have kid named Jack Hughes, brother of Quinn, who's a center and supposed "next one"

    Somebody did ask if Dahlin would be the Rangers best pick if they chose #1. Yes, under no circumstances will he not be the first overall pick. Hasn't been a better prospect at defense coming out in a draft since Hedman and Dahlin rates higher. He is without any doubt the cream of this crop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    It is possible the best player in the 2017 draft turns out to be Casey Mittelstadt selected 8th (just after we selected Lias), by Buff. He's been beastly and you can see some Tavares in him. The Sabres may have really lucked out here.
    It's tough to take that the Rangers passed on him because Andersson was deemed no the better prospect but more ready. The Rangers selected Andersson to play this year and he wasn't ready anyway. On a positive note at least they didn't compound that mistake and rush him anyway. Andersson will be fine but Mittelstadt has that talent you just don't trade for.

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    I didn't realize Katchouk was T Bay property.

    Lots of goodies over there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    The issue here is this. Just like the past draft the rangers had this mindset. They passed on Mittelstadt and glass and took Andersson because he’s more nhl ready. While I like Andersson and he’s no slouch, the other two have much higher upside. Mittelstadt in particular is going to be a special offensive talent. It’s really to bad he’s not in our pipeline people here would be falling over themselves about his future and rightfully so.
    Missed this post, but you are spot on. I was worried about his skating, then I saw him dominate and play like Tavares. I'm afraid we really missed out. Glass was selected just before our pick.

    My biggest take here is that rangers are finally acting like their peers. They are making hockey decisions rather than rash financial ones compounded with the stigma of playing in nyc. They are rightfully assessing their roster and going into rebuild mode. Now they can’t have it both ways. Rebuilds require some pain and you can’t force it. Talent should be judged in that spectrum alone. You can’t defer to a lesser player because the lesser player might be on your team a year or two earlier. You hire and pay your scouts to find the talent. Trust them. Take the best players available whether in the draft or in trade deals. They need everything and when gathering talent if you have a surplus somewhere you can always trade from that strength. Just please please don’t make moves because of next year. It’s going to take more than a year to fix this
    Amen and absolutely. I'd say err on the side of upside. There are safe picks and riskier picks with upside. Sometimes the safe pick has such a complete 200' game (ala Bergeron) that it is hard to pass up. But not when you have a shot at a real star. I say go for it.

    Besides the safer versus riskier upside pick, you mentioned what the Rangers really need to avoid. Choosing the prospect that is more NHL ready over the better player in the long term. Sure, sometimes the guys further along might be turning into sure NHLers, making the younger guy more risky. Yet, here is where we need to gamble on upside. We need to find that top pair Dman and a top line forward/C.

    Now when it comes to trading McD, I do want to see a proven kid star in return. But let's not let that scuttle this conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    Yeah, I get it, but all mentioned are further along than a the 30th overall pick.
    Yeah, but don't we want that pick too? Especially since we can't mention Sergachev or Point. So stingy.

    Howden, Foote and a 1st for Nash + a 4th

    Dunny, why is Katchouk rated lower than most of the others we've mentioned?

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    I Think it also needs to be said that the prices the Rangers are asking for will probably not be met. These are the first shot across the bow and their demands seem fair. That is as long las there is somebody out there willing to pay it. In the cases of both Grabner and Nash, there is no wait for the draft. They may have to take the best offer they receive come deadline and if that's the case so be it. It is very possible that teams are reluctant to trade 1st round picks. It is imperative that no matter what the best deal is that the Rangers don't get stuck holding the bag hoping for more. It's very possible that Nash will be the barometer for the market, meaning that there might be stagnation in terms of trades until he is dealt. It would benefit the Rangers to get him moved as fast as possible for a fair deal. Don't try and over think it. If it's fair move him. Once he's moved it will force others to react and cause the market to move. The Rangers have multiple pieces here and trading Nash early for a fair return may drive the prices up especially for Grabner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Love it. Brannstrom or Suzuki. But they were the the 13th and 15th selections in this past draft. Unfortunately Brannstrom and a 1st is basically two firsts for Nash. I don't think McPhee does this. The return on Grabs will probably be less than Nash.
    I think Brannstrom is probably more likely to be part of a Mac deal, than it would Nash.

    Vegas' blueline still isn't good, so they've got to have more of a premium on Brannstrom than, say, Suzuki.

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    Franny, I think you've got it right on the money, man!

    I was actually thinking of dealing Grabner first to drive the price up for Nash, but I get where you're going and I agree wholeheartedly! I already know from years past, you know the prospects pretty damn well. But yeah, I don't see this as a 1 or 2 year turnaround time. We're going to have to go through some crap before we see the rainbow. But how bad can that be....think about this a second:

    The truth is, this team hasn't been any bit entertaining at all this season, so what are we going to miss? This team's been a disaster to me:
    Games are snoozers
    They come out flat pretty much every game
    Hank has to eat 6 apples and shit a fruit salad for them to win a game.
    They never shoot
    Power play blows
    This "High powered" fast break offense gets 16 shots on goal a game
    They never score anymore

    Team sucks....Bring on the kids...It really can't get any worse than this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenvold View Post
    Perhaps some of those 1st rounders will be for 2019, though. The upside for the Rangers is then that the Stars' or Knights' or Bruins' 1st round pick in 2019 could be a lottery pick for all we know. I think it would be wise to spread out the picks a little bit, although the 2018 class is very attractive.
    I hear ya, but this is where we want more 'ready' prospects. Why wait another draft just to get someone into the system. Especially given the strength of this draft. You gotta give to get. Pony up.

    If someone wants back into the 1st bad enough, then they can trade other players, picks, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    It makes sense to me. They don't want a five year rebuild.

    Getting such assets serves two purposes. 1) They're closer to contributing and 2) They're much more projectable.
    i'd agree here. It is the Garden after all. they like the playoff dollars. sounds like while Gorton got the o.k. to go on a sell spree here, it still smells like a retool on the fly as much as you can rather than a tear down and 5 years of dark ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    Fall from grace in terms of the draft. He went from being a top 10 pick to the 30th pretty much in the span of three weeks. Merkley has been on a steady descent since like November because of attitude concerns. He's probably the mosty dynamic defenseman not named Dahlín or Boqvist.

    I'd also take Liljegren over Dermott.
    Oh yeah, his fall during the draft. I remember Phil freaking, wanting him picked 21. Then he kept dropping. So, I guess with him rated #2 prospect we are not getting him for Nash, let alone + a 1st.

    Any chance for a Nash for:
    Vilardi?
    Suzuki? - Future is probably right, they'll need a Dman back to part with Brannstrom
    Valamaki - Calgary is pretty loaded with Dmen
    Thomas - a deal with St Louis would seem to have to include him or Kryou
    Heiskanen is probably off the board for the Avs. What about Conor Timmons, first pick in 2nd, good righty dman. Their 1st, would be valuable too, wonder if they are bidding.

    I was concerned about Lilegren's scouting report and he's not on the top 50. You know why? I assume you like him over Dermott due to upside. However, I think Dermott is going to surprise people with his upside. Only 11 games, so we'll see. But I think he is up for good, even when they get everyone back.

  12. #32
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    Lower 1st round picks, to the extent that they work out, tend to do so well down the road. For example, Skjei was chosen in 2012 and became a regular in 2016.

  13. #33
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    Thomas actually has some phenomenal possession stats in junior in addition to being a good producer. He's someone I might actually be interested in as a return for Nash or Grabner.

    In regards to Liljegren over Dermott, it's just a matter of preferring Liljegren's overall game. Dermott is steady whereas Liljegren oozes potential. Liljegren only had two points at the WJC but he was playing incredibly well but was also playing alongside defensemen like Brannstrom and Dahlin. I think it's much harder to get a player with Liljegren's skillset than Dermoitt's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    I Think it also needs to be said that the prices the Rangers are asking for will probably not be met. These are the first shot across the bow and their demands seem fair. That is as long las there is somebody out there willing to pay it. In the cases of both Grabner and Nash, there is no wait for the draft. They may have to take the best offer they receive come deadline and if that's the case so be it. It is very possible that teams are reluctant to trade 1st round picks. It is imperative that no matter what the best deal is that the Rangers don't get stuck holding the bag hoping for more. It's very possible that Nash will be the barometer for the market, meaning that there might be stagnation in terms of trades until he is dealt. It would benefit the Rangers to get him moved as fast as possible for a fair deal. Don't try and over think it. If it's fair move him. Once he's moved it will force others to react and cause the market to move. The Rangers have multiple pieces here and trading Nash early for a fair return may drive the prices up especially for Grabner.
    Ah, this is like game theory. You are right, we can get greedy and end up in a Talbot situation where the offer came off the board and another team went in a diff direction. We also do not want the player to get injured.

    I think you are right, the ask (according to some reports) is too high. However, every team is going to act like we are taking their first born, early in the process. No one wants to trade their 1st in a good draft. Once some of the teams realize they will not only lose out on Nash, but he is going to their division rival, they'll get serious.

    I think Nash goes to the team willing to give up a 1st + a prospect we like. I think more than 1 team will offer their first. Likely the prospect is the tiebreaker, unless the first is coming from a bubble team. On the flipside, Tampa's 1st is probably least attractive.

    This is why these reports of "wanting a 1st, 2nd and top prospect" are all bullshit, I hope. More realistically, the Rangers are actually targeting some prospects and they are names not numbers. Some they like, some they love and some they'd pass.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    Thomas actually has some phenomenal possession stats in junior in addition to being a good producer. He's someone I might actually be interested in as a return for Nash or Grabner.

    In regards to Liljegren over Dermott, it's just a matter of preferring Liljegren's overall game. Dermott is steady whereas Liljegren oozes potential. Liljegren only had two points at the WJC but he was playing incredibly well but was also playing alongside defensemen like Brannstrom and Dahlin. I think it's much harder to get a player with Liljegren's skillset than Dermoitt's.
    Thanks Drew.

    Thomas and Kryou are tearing up the OHL. So is Suzuki, Raddysh, Katchouk, and Timmons. If anybody is watching any of these guys, or has something to add chime in.

    Slobber/Dunny do you guys think these kids are too far away? Do we stay away from OHL guys (juniors) for older prospects? I assume the fear is the quality of competition?

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Yeah, but don't we want that pick too? Especially since we can't mention Sergachev or Point. So stingy.

    Howden, Foote and a 1st for Nash + a 4th

    Dunny, why is Katchouk rated lower than most of the others we've mentioned?
    I don't know, I'm better at handicapping novices these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    I don't know, I'm better at handicapping novices these days.
    Yeah, well you are better than two of the prospect sites. The top 50 has the kid rated higher than the rest.

    This is why I ask you about these OHLers. Which ones are in your backyard? Give us the dope.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Ah, this is like game theory. You are right, we can get greedy and end up in a Talbot situation where the offer came off the board and another team went in a diff direction. We also do not want the player to get injured.

    I think you are right, the ask (according to some reports) is too high. However, every team is going to act like we are taking their first born, early in the process. No one wants to trade their 1st in a good draft. Once some of the teams realize they will not only lose out on Nash, but he is going to their division rival, they'll get serious.

    I think Nash goes to the team willing to give up a 1st + a prospect we like. I think more than 1 team will offer their first. Likely the prospect is the tiebreaker, unless the first is coming from a bubble team. On the flipside, Tampa's 1st is probably least attractive.

    This is why these reports of "wanting a 1st, 2nd and top prospect" are all bullshit, I hope. More realistically, the Rangers are actually targeting some prospects and they are names not numbers. Some they like, some they love and some they'd pass.
    That’s right. I’m just saying that if someone comes with a first and a prospect they like then they inform all interested parties they have a deal they like. Make a better offer or it’s done.

  19. #39
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    If I had my choice I’d like to see a trade with the blues
    I don’t think they have their first so it be something like this
    Kyrou or Thomas
    Plus
    Shamltz or 2019 first

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    if someone comes with a first and a prospect they like then they inform all interested parties they have a deal they like. Make a better offer or it’s done.
    Love it, that's how to do business. Don't be stupid, don't get ripped off, let everyone bid, ask for the guys you want, negotiate, take the best deal, give all serious bidders one quick last chance, pull trigger.

    Robert Thomas is probably very highly coveted by St Louis, given he is a C and is also getting a reputation as a sick defensive player, along with his O skills. One scout says his upside is Bergeron. He was recently traded to Hamilton. I'd be tempted to do Nash for Thomas straight up. Maybe someone outbids them, but he's a serious prospect for a rental. If it is St Louis w/o a 2018 1st, Thomas or Kyrou need to be the centerpiece.

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