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    Senior Member Mite Division jsm7302's Avatar
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    Nash for Picks in the 2018 Draft?

    It's time to cash in on Rick Nash. He won't command a huge return but with his lack of production, I feel a Hartford kid could step in and have 17 points halfway through the season. Think we could get a 2nd or 3rd round pick in the upcoming draft? You guys are more knowledgeable about this stuff than i; I just know it doesn't make sense to keep him if they don't plan to resign him for a MAJOR discount. Send him back to Columbus for his farewell tour.

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    "A Hartford kid": There aren't any.

    "17 points" : A single player accumulating some arbitrary amount of points aren't how hockey games are won.

    If the Rangers have 1) No designs on competing this year or 2) Know for fact what Nash' contract demands are going forward, then, yes, trading him makes perfect sense. However, they do, obviously, have designs on competing this year and we, as fans, have no idea what his and the teams future plans are.

    At this point in both the season and Nash' contract, what he makes is virtually irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that they are certainly a better team with Rick Nash than without Rick Nash and until you replace him with somebody better than he, it will remain that way.

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    There's a case to be made for trading Nash, but "Player A could score 17 points" is a pretty poor approach to that.

    And I think he'd get you a heck of a lot more than a 2nd round pick. His reputation around the league is much, much higher than what it is for NYR fans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    There's a case to be made for trading Nash, but "Player A could score 17 points" is a pretty poor approach to that.

    And I think he'd get you a heck of a lot more than a 2nd round pick. His reputation around the league is much, much higher than what it is for NYR fans.
    Guaranteed first-round pick from a contender. Anything less and they sold for seventy cents on the dollar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Guaranteed first-round pick from a contender. Anything less and they sold for seventy cents on the dollar.
    Yes, if he's traded before the deadline.

    If as the OP suggests, he is traded at the draft I think he brings a lot less, as teams could say, "why trade the farm, when we can wait for free agency?"
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    He often looks brilliant in creating Grade B scoring chances. It's so frustrating that he doesn't find a way to create Grade A chances given his levels of skill and effort are still high. He ends up having to try to do it all himself because he hasn't developed really good chemistry with any of the other forwards; it goes back to Columbus where he had to do it himself. I can see him excelling elsewhere if he finds the right situation and personnel. Remember Eric Staal, who seemed washed up in Carolina and couldn't play his way off the third line here? He's kicking butt and leading Minnesota in scoring. He's on track for a 35 goal 70 point season!

    The play-by-play goes something like this: "The thoroughbred Nash roars across the blue line. Along the boards he incredibly sheds three defenders while maintaining possession of the puck! He wheels to the center while his line mates watch or change. He out muscles yet another defender! He has a fleeting clear look from 35 feet out at an angle! He unleashes a wrist shot while being harassed. It is routinely saved by the goalie. But boy, what an effort by Rick Nash! The man still can play!"

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    Been saying this since September. Doesn’t matter how many goals or points he has. Doesn’t matter what place we’re in at the deadline, the ONLY proper decision is to move him. Same with Grabner.

    Get. Something. For. These. Players.

    Rick Nash is not the missing piece this roster needs to win a cup. They’re rebuilding - whether it’s “on the fly” or not - that’s what needs to happen. Younger. More skilled. More cost control. More draft picks. Resign of Nash and/or Grabner is a mistake and an acceptance of 7th-9th place finishes for the forseable future. Simply put, it’s bad management to keep them.
    FIRE VIGNEAULT

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    Been saying this since September. Doesn’t matter how many goals or points he has. Doesn’t matter what place we’re in at the deadline, the ONLY proper decision is to move him. Same with Grabner.

    Get. Something. For. These. Players.

    Rick Nash is not the missing piece this roster needs to win a cup. They’re rebuilding - whether it’s “on the fly” or not - that’s what needs to happen. Younger. More skilled. More cost control. More draft picks. Resign of Nash and/or Grabner is a mistake and an acceptance of 7th-9th place finishes for the forseable future. Simply put, it’s bad management to keep them.
    Name one player younger than Nash who is more skilled and one player younger than Grabner who will score more goals, that you can get without losing draft picks or prospects. We know you hate him, but you act like dumping him for anything makes this team better.

    If you just want to get younger and tank, fine. But you aren't going to get players who move the needle without giving up futures. That's not how this league works. It never happens without a 1-for-1 swap. The reality is that dumping Grabner and Nash for picks and prospects moves you down right now and leaves you with a bunch of questions about the future. You've got as good a shot of turning the return into players who move you up from 7th-9th as you do down and, chances are, you're going down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Name one player younger than Nash who is more skilled and one player younger than Grabner who will score more goals, that you can get without losing draft picks or prospects. We know you hate him, but you act like dumping him for anything makes this team better.

    If you just want to get younger and tank, fine. But you aren't going to get players who move the needle without giving up futures. That's not how this league works. It never happens without a 1-for-1 swap. The reality is that dumping Grabner and Nash for picks and prospects moves you down right now and leaves you with a bunch of questions about the future. You've got as good a shot of turning the return into players who move you up from 7th-9th as you do down and, chances are, you're going down.
    That’s exactly my point. The team has been trending down since 2014. Accept that they need to restock. This perpetual hole plugging is not a strategy. Get something (picks) for these players instead of finishing 7-9th. I don’t care if it makes them worse tomorrow if it makes them better than mediocre - which is what they are - in a year or two.
    FIRE VIGNEAULT

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    That’s exactly my point. The team has been trending down since 2014. Accept that they need to restock. This perpetual hole plugging is not a strategy. Get something (picks) for these players instead of finishing 7-9th. I don’t care if it makes them worse tomorrow if it makes them better than mediocre - which is what they are - in a year or two.
    So, it seems we are having this discussion on two current threads. 31, I understand what you are saying. Here's essentially what I said on another thread:

    It is good to get something (building blocks/high draft choices) for assets a team could potentially lose for nothing, next year.

    However, this is sports, this is hockey, 8th seeds have won Cups recently... you're a competitor. YOU play, coach and manage the team to win. PARTICULARLY when those 3 parties believe they are a PLAYOFF team.

    Life is short. I've seen plenty of reasonably talented teams put it together in the post season. Guys get hot. Other team's stars can get hurt. A team can not trade key pieces like Nash or Grabner for draft choices, when the team thinks it is a playoff team and is in that position halfway through.

    A compromise is in order. A compromise I opined for the year we traded for Staal. We do not trade Nash or Grabs for draft picks. Yet, we do not trade legitimate futures for rentals.

    Basically Nash and Grabs are our rentals. Do for not trade futures or pay an inflated price for any other rental.

    31, if you were GM how would you sell it to the players and coaches that you just traded Nash AND Grabs for future draft choices and no come across as a quitter or having no confidence in the core of the personnel here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    So, it seems we are having this discussion on two current threads. 31, I understand what you are saying. Here's essentially what I said on another thread:

    It is good to get something (building blocks/high draft choices) for assets a team could potentially lose for nothing, next year.

    However, this is sports, this is hockey, 8th seeds have won Cups recently... you're a competitor. YOU play, coach and manage the team to win. PARTICULARLY when those 3 parties believe they are a PLAYOFF team.

    Life is short. I've seen plenty of reasonably talented teams put it together in the post season. Guys get hot. Other team's stars can get hurt. A team can not trade key pieces like Nash or Grabner for draft choices, when the team thinks it is a playoff team and is in that position halfway through.

    A compromise is in order. A compromise I opined for the year we traded for Staal. We do not trade Nash or Grabs for draft picks. Yet, we do not trade legitimate futures for rentals.

    Basically Nash and Grabs are our rentals. Do for not trade futures or pay an inflated price for any other rental.

    31, if you were GM how would you sell it to the players and coaches that you just traded Nash AND Grabs for future draft choices and no come across as a quitter or having no confidence in the core of the personnel here?
    I appreciate the well written/thoughtout response.

    Yes. It’s a hard sell to the players. In fact, it’s probably impossible not to piss off a few guys. But if Im the GM I’m looking at this bigger picture. I’m not here to make nice with Hank - who would be most pissed. I’m here to rebuild a perennial contender. I’m here to be realistic about the current team and the future. I’m here to execute a PLAN.

    Yes, an 8th place team can catch lightning in a bottle - but that doesn’t happen very often. So if I’m looking at trends, I see that this team has been trending downward for years now. I see that major pieces have been traded off, while some remain as part of a half-rebuild, half-i-don’t-know-what. It’s not the GMs job to say “well, I don’t want to anger the players, so I’m just going to stand pat and let the cards fall where they may.” He’s paid to make those hard decisions. Standing pat is not making a decision. It’s kicking the can down the road.

    Letting Grabner and Nash walk for nothing is just not an acceptable plan. The bandaid has to be ripped off here. I believe Nash can net us a 1st. With that 1st and the depth of this draft we could potentially see 4 1st round picks on next years roster. If that doesn’t excite you, I don’t know what does. Two years down the road we have the Russian kid in net and viola, the team is born a new.
    FIRE VIGNEAULT

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    Just a Simple Country Squire BSBH Prospect
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    Hey Guys, let's give up on the year. We're only going to pace 98 points this year, We should build for the future in the expectation of finishing with maybe 102 points!

    I don't understand this logic. Rebuilding guarantees NOTHING. I'd actually say the teams that are "rebuilding" generally tend to be constantly rebuilding. Edmonton sucks. Buffalo, is worse!

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    And when I ask "how do you sell it?" I think what I really mean is that you would not be able to sell it. Just saying you have a plan would not sell it. Your actions would speak so loudly about not only your plan, but how you feel about the team as a whole that it wouldn't matter how good a communicator you are. It would have a deleterious effect.

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    If you take Nash and Grabner off of a team that is already missing Kreider, you will see how this teams future looks once you pull that trigger. They will be awful. They will suck and they will not bounce back the way you think they will. There's nothing coming down the pipe to suggest that the Rangers can easily walk away from these players.

    That's not to say I'm against trading them. Just saying it's going to hurt more than you are suggesting.

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    Rip the band-aid off and let it bleed...

    So, honest question: if we're not trading them, do you resign Grabner for 5m like they talked about last night? Do you resign Nash for 5m? If you say "yes" then I can see your point. If you want those guys back then I get where you're coming from. I don't agree - but I get it.

    But what I don't understand is the idea that you can't move them because this team is in a playoff position and their removal will make the team weaker.

    So what? Why are we so afraid to suck? Why would you possibly desire a 7th or 8th place finish and another playoff whimper instead of a 1st rounder (or a slew of prospects) and a hope for the future?

    Stepan is gone, Girardi is gone, Hank is 35, times are changing. That team from 2014 is dead. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can all move on. The Rangers need to stop living in "Hank's Window" and take a look around at reality. The longer they kick the can, the further down the black hole we go. The Dark Ages were not built by last place teams. They were built by teams that barely missed the playoffs. Learn from history. See the writing on the wall. Get something for Nash/Grabner because they are over 30 and the most valuable pieces available.
    FIRE VIGNEAULT

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    Rip the band-aid off and let it bleed...

    So, honest question: if we're not trading them, do you resign Grabner for 5m like they talked about last night? Do you resign Nash for 5m? If you say "yes" then I can see your point. If you want those guys back then I get where you're coming from. I don't agree - but I get it.

    But what I don't understand is the idea that you can't move them because this team is in a playoff position and their removal will make the team weaker.

    So what? Why are we so afraid to suck? Why would you possibly desire a 7th or 8th place finish and another playoff whimper instead of a 1st rounder (or a slew of prospects) and a hope for the future?

    Stepan is gone, Girardi is gone, Hank is 35, times are changing. That team from 2014 is dead. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can all move on. The Rangers need to stop living in "Hank's Window" and take a look around at reality. The longer they kick the can, the further down the black hole we go. The Dark Ages were not built by last place teams. They were built by teams that barely missed the playoffs. Learn from history. See the writing on the wall. Get something for Nash/Grabner because they are over 30 and the most valuable pieces available.
    If the East was any good and had teams that were flat out unbeatable, I'd agree with you. I happen to think this team with some tinkering can be a legit contender.

    I'd think about bringing Nash and Grabner back. I would. And like I said, I'd deal Miller and Hayes for D help.

    Lundqvist is playing back to his capabilities. I ride a top goalie on his game. I don't trade young assets for a rental, nor do I pack it in and give up on the season. I'd trade young assets for equally young if not slightly older assets that fill needs. Like a center, a scorer or a Dman.

    Now if they play .500 till the trade deadline...... Yeah I sell everything. As is? They don't look any worse than anyone in the conference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    Rip the band-aid off and let it bleed...

    So what? Why are we so afraid to suck? Why would you possibly desire a 7th or 8th place finish and another playoff whimper instead of a 1st rounder (or a slew of prospects) and a hope for the future?

    Stepan is gone, Girardi is gone, Hank is 35, times are changing. That team from 2014 is dead. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can all move on. The Rangers need to stop living in "Hank's Window" and take a look around at reality. The longer they kick the can, the further down the black hole we go. The Dark Ages were not built by last place teams. They were built by teams that barely missed the playoffs. Learn from history. See the writing on the wall. Get something for Nash/Grabner because they are over 30 and the most valuable pieces available.

    And fuck, I'll put this here to. Draft picks don't guarantee shit.


    Like winning the cup is so easy? Rebuilding is a guaranteed cup?

    Of the last 9 cups, Pitt and Chicago account for 6.

    Chicago first won in 2009-2010. Prior to that, from 1997 to 2008 (12 years) they absolutely sucked. Record of 343 - 414 - 145. 7th fewest wins in the league. Between 1997 and 2005, they had 8 top 15 draft picks and they still sucked enough to draft Toews #3 in 2006 and Kane #1 in 2007. Is that what you want the Rangers to do? Suck miserably until they luck into drafting a Toews and a Kane?

    Pittsburgh first won in 2008-2009. Prior to that, from 2001 to 2006 they had the FEWEST wins in the NHL. 100 - 178 - 50. During those 5 years they drafted #5, #1, #2, #1, #2. They were lucky enough to draft two players better than Toews and Kane in Malkin and Crosby. They got lucky that there was generational talent available to coincide with the beginning of their suckiness.

    See Edmonton for what 8 straight top 10 picks will do without generational talent, Buffalo has had 5 straight. Arizona has had 8 picks in the top 8 (including the #7 they traded to us) in the past 13 drafts.

    Let's see...Washington had 12 first round picks between 2002 and 2007, to include a #1, #4, and #5. They haven't won a cup or as many playoff games as the Rangers.

    What else...The Trashers/Jets are finally having a good year. Since their inception in 1998 - 1999 to 2015 - 2016 they went 518 - 593 - 167. That's second worst in the league for 17 years. They had 2 #1 picks; 3 #2 picks; 1 each #3, #4, #7, and #10; 2 each #8 and #9. That's 13 top ten picks with an overall playoff record of 0 - 8. Fan-fucking-tastic to have to live through that if your a fan of theirs.

    Fuck rebuilding, I'd rather watch playoff hockey.
    Last edited by Long live the King; 01-05-2018 at 03:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    And fuck, I'll put this here to. Draft picks don't guarantee shit.


    Like winning the cup is so easy? Rebuilding is a guaranteed cup?

    Of the last 9 cups, Pitt and Chicago account for 6.

    Chicago first won in 2009-2010. Prior to that, from 1997 to 2008 (12 years) they absolutely sucked. Record of 343 - 414 - 145. 7th fewest wins in the league. Between 1997 and 2005, they had 8 top 15 draft picks and they still sucked enough to draft Toews #3 in 2006 and Kane #1 in 2007. Is that what you want the Rangers to do? Suck miserably until they luck into drafting a Toews and a Kane?

    Pittsburgh first won in 2008-2009. Prior to that, from 2001 to 2006 they had the FEWEST wins in the NHL. 100 - 178 - 50. During those 5 years they drafted #5, #1, #2, #1, #2. They were lucky enough to draft two players better than Toews and Kane in Malkin and Crosby. They got lucky that there was generational talent available to coincide with the beginning of their suckiness.

    See Edmonton for what 8 straight top 10 picks will do without generational talent, Buffalo has had 5 straight. Arizona has had 8 picks in the top 8 (including the #7 they traded to us) in the past 13 drafts.

    Let's see...Washington had 12 first round picks between 2002 and 2007, to include a #1, #4, and #5. They haven't won a cup or as many playoff games as the Rangers.

    What else...The Trashers/Jets are finally having a good year. Since their inception in 1998 - 1999 to 2015 - 2016 they went 518 - 593 - 167. That's second worst in the league for 17 years. They had 2 #1 picks; 3 #2 picks; 1 each #3, #4, #7, and #10; 2 each #8 and #9. That's 13 top ten picks with an overall playoff record of 0 - 8. Fan-fucking-tastic to have to live through that if your a fan of theirs.

    Fuck rebuilding, I'd rather watch playoff hockey.
    You have become my favorite poster lately. Agreed agreed agreed agreed agreed agreed agreed.

    This team can not she'd Lundqvist, and they will not rebuild and suck until he is gone. Shit, it probably won't happen then either. Im not convinced that they have to.

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    Nash to Ari for Duclair and a 1st round pick in the upcoming draft. Bad idea?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsm7302 View Post
    Nash to Ari for Duclair and a 1st round pick in the upcoming draft. Bad idea?
    Why would Arizona trade a top 5 pick for Rick Nash? Let alone throw in Duclair?

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