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Thread: They Need a Goal Scorer and Playmker

  1. #21
    Senior Member Squirt Division Sod16's Avatar
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    Keep an eye on Tampa. There have been a lot of very good teams who are 25 points into the playoffs in late January, play not so great hockey in February and March, and don't fully turn it around for the playoffs. I think Washington is a recent example.

  2. #22
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    We're a 1st round out, maybe a 2nd round out with some luck.

    Break the cycle. Trade Nash, Grabner, Holden. Bring up the kids. If we make it, great. If not, a slightly higher pick and a little less hockey is a small price to pay for better setting ourselves up for 2018-19
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    You're overstating Tampa. They have Dan Girardi and Braydon Coburn playing top-4 minutes. They haven't had a single injury of consequence, so we don't know what their depth is. Of their top-10 forwards by TOI, they've missed 11 man-games because of injury. 10 are Ryan Callahan. Their top-5 D have missed a total of 2. What happens when 3 of their top-4 volume shooters at forward aren't shooting 17% anymore?

    Long story short is that Tampa, like every team in the East, has question marks and if 5th place is, say, the Rangers, there's no guarantee that they'll make a run at anything.
    I was just in the Tampa area for a month and watched them plenty. I'm happy to provide my observations and compare to our Rangers.

    1. G and Coburn are not in the Top 4. That is their bottom pair.

    2. Their #1D (Hedman) has been better than ours.

    3. Their first pair is Hedman and an excellent Jake Dotchin. They are prepared for the best top lines, we are not. Holden is atrocious defensively. Shattenkirk not so good defensively. None on our RHDs have played good enough defensively.

    4. Meanwhile, their second pair is an awesome Sergachev and Stralman. Ours is an awesome Skjei paired with a defensive liability. Tampa has an excellent Top 4, we do not.

    5. Their goalie (IMO) has been the best in the league. Certainly top 2 or 3. Ours is better than some think, but we can't say Hank is playing near Vasilevskiy's level, overall. Our goalies have had a very nice stretch recently, though.

    6. Their top line has almost 150 points in 39 games. Kucherov is 25G 31A 59P in 39. Almost a point and a half per game. Stamkos is similar with 49 total points so far. Can we even compare our top lines?

    7. Brayden Point is a true #2C and getting better. Has 20G so far and almost a point a game. Johnson and Palat are no slouch linemates. Have to give the clear edge to Tampa because of their Center.

    8. Their 3rd line is playing great too. Tough and defensively strong. Gourde is another nice young player with 26 points, Killorn is racking up assists and having another good year. Kunitz is on the 4th line for them. Our bottom 6 is pretty even. They probably could use another key 4th liner, but those are much cheaper and easier to find at the deadline than a 2C and a 1RHD.

    9. I believe they are better coached team. Their special teams are better. They are playing faster then anybody and their team D has been fundamentally sound. They get back. Mgmt/Stevie has been good. Clear edge to Tampa.

    So Future, tell me where we compare favorably?
    Last edited by Giacomin; 01-04-2018 at 03:03 PM.

  4. #24
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    I didn't mention Cally (the high character 4th line vet for Tampa, when healthy), who we have no need for, even at half the salary. Ditto for G.

    But I'm happy to comment about our fortune if we had our boy Stralman manning McD's right side. That would make a huge difference, just like it would have the year we lost to Tampa in the ECF. Get the Rangers a Stralman and a Brayden Point, and we'd be ready for a Cup run.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 01-04-2018 at 03:20 PM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    I was just in the Tampa area for a month and watched them plenty. I'm happy to provide my observations and compare to our Rangers.

    1. G and Coburn are not in the Top 4. That is their bottom pair.
    They are third and fourth in ice time right now, and things got shuffled when Stralman missed a couple of games. But regardless, two rookies in your top 4 does not mean anything for playoff success. It's question marks, not guarantees.

    Their special teams aren't better. The Rangers are top-5 on the PK and Tampa is 20-something.

    Goalies are basically a wash.

    Their top line doesn't scare me. It's purely a skill line, and that's who the Rangers are always good against.

    Everything else you mention could be undercut by a single injury to their top 6, of which they have not had. It's easy to look fast when everything is going right, as we've seen with the Rangers time and time again.

    And I didn't even say we compare favorably. What I said is that there's no guarantee they'd beat the Rangers let alone make a run. Their record against the teams they might face in the first round (NYR, NJD, Pitt, PHI) is just 3-3-2. It's not like they're blowing out Metro teams every night.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    They are third and fourth in ice time right now, and things got shuffled when Stralman missed a couple of games. But regardless, two rookies in your top 4 does not mean anything for playoff success. It's question marks, not guarantees.

    Their special teams aren't better. The Rangers are top-5 on the PK and Tampa is 20-something.

    Goalies are basically a wash.

    Their top line doesn't scare me. It's purely a skill line, and that's who the Rangers are always good against.

    Everything else you mention could be undercut by a single injury to their top 6, of which they have not had. It's easy to look fast when everything is going right, as we've seen with the Rangers time and time again.

    And I didn't even say we compare favorably. What I said is that there's no guarantee they'd beat the Rangers let alone make a run. Their record against the teams they might face in the first round (NYR, NJD, Pitt, PHI) is just 3-3-2. It's not like they're blowing out Metro teams every night.
    I'll give you that they have 2 young defenders that lack playoff experience, but Dotchkin looks good (nice size too) and Sergachev looks like a star. They traded Druin for him and it was still highway robbery. They are only going to get better.

    As for injuries, just because we lost Z and Fast earlier, and Kreider currently, does not mean they are due for the next injury. There is just as much of a chance that the next injury is Zuc, not Johnson. They are healthy, this is good for them. One of our top wingers was just diagnosed with a serious health issue. This does not benefit your argument that we can beat Tampa in the playoffs. For all we know, Kreider may need to be out longer than 6-8 weeks. Or he could be rusty and not find his form until next year.

    Nothing is guaranteed, but Tampa has certainly been head and shoulders better than the Rangers this year. They have the top end talent needed at every position. They are in better position and have a very strong roster up and down the lineup. They should be the betting favorites to represent the east, at this point. With the Kreider issue, they are now even better positioned to advance further than us. It is hard to spin it any other way.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 01-04-2018 at 04:41 PM.

  7. #27
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    Odd. I feel they need to move on from Miller, Hayes and maybe even McD. These are some of the weak points on the team. Not that they are horrible or had. They just aren't what the team needs them to be and will shortly demand the pay of a player they are supposed to be.

    Miller is just so frustrating to watch. I'm kinda over it. He's not playing like the big framed fast skater he is capable of. Hayes is Hayes. Never been a big fan. McD just seems to be regressing skill wise. I really don't consider him the teams best all around D man. That's Skjei. At times Smith looks better than McD. Every year blame is put on his partner as some kind of anchor that is ruining his game. He's played with everyone, and his former partner is doing quite alright on his new team.

    Can they land a low contract scorer for McD? Then go for Tavares this summer after dealing Miller/Hayes for a decent top 4 D man or 2?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Odd. I feel they need to move on from Miller, Hayes and maybe even McD. These are some of the weak points on the team. Not that they are horrible or had. They just aren't what the team needs them to be and will shortly demand the pay of a player they are supposed to be.

    Miller is just so frustrating to watch. I'm kinda over it. He's not playing like the big framed fast skater he is capable of. Hayes is Hayes. Never been a big fan. McD just seems to be regressing skill wise. I really don't consider him the teams best all around D man. That's Skjei. At times Smith looks better than McD. Every year blame is put on his partner as some kind of anchor that is ruining his game. He's played with everyone, and his former partner is doing quite alright on his new team.

    Can they land a low contract scorer for McD? Then go for Tavares this summer after dealing Miller/Hayes for a decent top 4 D man or 2?
    You're talking about two different things. You're talking about a full rebuild - which will never happen. That means Hank has to go. Or, you're talking about trading all their "young" players for established players and then signing Tavares - which has never been a successful formula here.
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  9. #29
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    Not many teams can match the Rangers' collection of proven NHL-level forwards aged 22-26. Zibanejad (24), Kreider (26), Miller (24), Hayes (25), Fast (26), Buchnevich (22), Vesey (24). These guys have all showed more than enough to be considered NHL-quality role players.

    The issue is that none of these players are displaying true elite talent. You cannot form a really strong 1st line from these guys alone, and the only potential 1st line forwards in the system were drafted just 6 months ago.

    Looking forward, the Rangers need to focus on retaining this core of forwards on good contracts and filling in "above" and "below" them - that is, mainly looking to sign/trade/draft either 1st line or 4th line type forwards.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    I'll give you that they have 2 young defenders that lack playoff experience, but Dotchkin looks good (nice size too) and Sergachev looks like a star. They traded Druin for him and it was still highway robbery. They are only going to get better.

    As for injuries, just because we lost Z and Fast earlier, and Kreider currently, does not mean they are due for the next injury. There is just as much of a chance that the next injury is Zuc, not Johnson. They are healthy, this is good for them. One of our top wingers was just diagnosed with a serious health issue. This does not benefit your argument that we can beat Tampa in the playoffs. For all we know, Kreider may need to be out longer than 6-8 weeks. Or he could be rusty and not find his form until next year.

    Nothing is guaranteed, but Tampa has certainly been head and shoulders better than the Rangers this year. They have the top end talent needed at every position. They are in better position and have a very strong roster up and down the lineup. They should be the betting favorites to represent the east, at this point. With the Kreider issue, they are now even better positioned to advance further than us. It is hard to spin it any other way.
    This is all true, and I'm not saying they aren't the favorites at this point.

    But I think there's a huge jump from that to the idea that they're just going to waltz through the playoffs.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Squirt Division jsm7302's Avatar
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    Any interest in bringing Duclair back from Arizona? He has struggled on a struggling team. He has potential....

  12. #32
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    Probably not much at this point... maybe for a 3rd round pick, but hes not a fix for this teams problems.
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  13. #33
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    This team needs way more than a goal scorer and a playmaker. We have almost zero defense prospects to speak of in the system, a number of deficiencies on the big roster, and a goalie pushing 35. Again, this is why I REALLY wish we had just stayed the course and continued to build from within from 2010 to beyond. All those "need to go for it every year" moves are absolute killers for this team's future, and present for that matter.

  14. #34
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    Which prospect did they lose from 2010 to present that would have made a difference in 4 seasons from now?

    And from 2010 to present, the Rangers have been the 3rd most successful playoff team (Pittsburgh, Chicago) and 5th in RS wins behind Pitt, Chicago, St Louis and Washington. They also rank 2nd & 4th, respectively, since AV came in 2013.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Which prospect did they lose from 2010 to present that would have made a difference in 4 seasons from now?

    And from 2010 to present, the Rangers have been the 3rd most successful playoff team (Pittsburgh, Chicago) and 5th in RS wins behind Pitt, Chicago, St Louis and Washington. They also rank 2nd & 4th, respectively, since AV came in 2013.
    Apparently, everyone wants to trade wins for prospects and the hope that said prospects can one day win as many games as one of the recent top 5 teams in the NHL. I don't get it. I'll take the wins. Bird in the hand...

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    You're talking about two different things. You're talking about a full rebuild - which will never happen. That means Hank has to go. Or, you're talking about trading all their "young" players for established players and then signing Tavares - which has never been a successful formula here.
    I'm suggesting trading players who's next contracts seem to be unjustified to give to said players. That's not a rebuild. If you get players who make less and fill needs, or make the same and fill needs at other positions. It's asset management. Thee Rangers will find it hard to fill the roster with anything they actually need at a decent price when they hand out two more Stepan like contracts with Miller and Hayes. Nevermind the diminished skills of McD.

    Lundqvist, Zib, Kreider, Skjei, Buch, Zucc to me are the teams top players that NEED to be here past this year. Adding Tavares isn't like a rebuild. You're getting an elite talent that establishes a first line and draws free agents to fill in the other gaps. That's ON TOP of what you get for Miller, Hayes and potentially McD.

    You'd rather have:
    Kreider- Zib- Buch
    Zucc- Hayes- Miller
    Vesey- Chytl- Fast
    Carey- Nieves/Andersson-?

    As your forwards next season, compared to

    Kreider- Tavares- Buch
    Vesey- Zib- Zucc
    ?- Chytl- Fast
    Carey- Nieves/Andersson- ?

    It's like trading Hayes and Miller for Tavares and assets equal to Miller and Hayes. I do that any day. It's probably cheaper, AND you get assets to fill the roster by dealing away those guys. Nevermind what McD can bring.

    Obviously this all rides on signing Tavares.

    I take Tavares and all the assets, over keeping these guys.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    I get it. We all wish Nash would still score 30 goals. The only absurd thing here is comparing him to Ovechkin. Nash has had 3 seasons in 15 years where he scored 40+ goals (plus he paced 40 once more but got hurt, and could have potentially got there during the lockout). Ovechkin is a 7 time (would have been 8 if not for the lock out, and on pace to hit it again this year) 50 goal scorer.
    This post is absurd. We did not acquire Rick Nash to be a middle-6 forward; we acquired him to be our go-to guy.

    Itís January. Heís been healthy this season. He has 17 points.

    That, too, is absurd.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichieNextel305 View Post
    This post is absurd. We did not acquire Rick Nash to be a middle-6 forward; we acquired him to be our go-to guy.

    It’s January. He’s been healthy this season. He has 17 points.

    That, too, is absurd.
    Unfortunately for us, he's not a pure dangler that lost his scoring touch. (??)
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichieNextel305 View Post
    This post is absurd. We did not acquire Rick Nash to be a middle-6 forward; we acquired him to be our go-to guy.

    It’s January. He’s been healthy this season. He has 17 points.

    That, too, is absurd.
    I didn't say they acquired him to be a middle six forward. They also didn't acquire him to be Ovechkin. What's truly absurd is comparing any active goal scorer to Ovechkin.

    Ovechkin scores .607 goals per game for his career. That's 6th ALL-TIME. The next closest active player, and only other player over .5 goals per game, is Stamkos at .540.

    You can't compare anyone's goal scoring to Ovechkin. He is the premier goal scorer of this generation.

  20. #40
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    We also acquired Rick Nash when he was 27 or so. He's 34 now, and in the last year of his deal. Different point in the career.

    If Rick Nash made 2.5M/y and was our 2nd line RW, he'd be fine. He's not, but he might be next year.
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