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Thread: At Least 4 Victims Killed After Shooting At School, Other Locations In California

  1. #21
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    Can someone walk me through how someone obtains an illegal gun? Do they purchase it from a shady shop? The "black market"? Do they just buy it without going through the requisite paperwork?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cash or Czech? View Post
    Can someone walk me through how someone obtains an illegal gun? Do they purchase it from a shady shop? The "black market"? Do they just buy it without going through the requisite paperwork?
    Yup.
    Not disclosing info to gun shops that would deny them, not taking necessary steps at gun shows, black market, stealing, hand me downs from gang members, etc etc.
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Yup.
    Not disclosing info to gun shops that would deny them, not taking necessary steps at gun shows, black market, stealing, hand me downs from gang members, etc etc.
    Cool, I appreciate the info!

    Would measures to curb how you can purchase guns, such as only being able to buy from specific shops (possibly government run) curb that? How do you eliminate the black market/stealing/gang member arms/looser gun show buying steps?

    And for not disclosing info to gun shops, is there a way to do further vetting on gun purchasers?

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    We have enough laws, we just don't follow them. Gun sellers, buyers, DAs , Judges. They need to get reelected, or sell more. It's a revolving door.
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    We have enough laws, we just don't follow them. Gun sellers, buyers, DAs , Judges. They need to get reelected, or sell more. It's a revolving door.
    So is the solution to weed out the corruption? Harsher penalties and actual enforcement of laws?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cash or Czech? View Post
    Cool, I appreciate the info!

    Would measures to curb how you can purchase guns, such as only being able to buy from specific shops (possibly government run) curb that? How do you eliminate the black market/stealing/gang member arms/looser gun show buying steps?

    And for not disclosing info to gun shops, is there a way to do further vetting on gun purchasers?
    Government run anything is not the answer. The dick hole in Texas was able to pass a background check because of the Air Force's (government) failure. And it is literally impossible to eliminate guns already owned illegally. There are no looser gun show steps. In order to legally buy a gun you need to go through a dealer with a Federal Firearms Licence. Prior to that person selling you a gun they must do a federal background check and you must pass in order to complete the purchase, no exceptions. Every gun transaction that does not follow this process is already illegal.

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    NY has been trying this for awhile. Illegal carry law - didn't stick. Thrown right back on the streets. Safe act hasn't changed anything. And classifying someone as a felon may take away a vote!

    Gun control is the definition of "politics".
    Obama admin passed laws/orders expanding gun rights. They made bump stocks legal. And the majority of laws/exec orders rejected by congress were already on the books.
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    Government run anything is not the answer. The dick hole in Texas was able to pass a background check because of the Air Force's (government) failure. And it is literally impossible to eliminate guns already owned illegally. There are no looser gun show steps. In order to legally buy a gun you need to go through a dealer with a Federal Firearms Licence. Prior to that person selling you a gun they must do a federal background check and you must pass in order to complete the purchase, no exceptions. Every gun transaction that does not follow this process is already illegal.
    Then how do you crack down on those that aren't following these procedures? If the problem is illegally acquiring guns, how do you prevent it or lessen it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    NY has been trying this for awhile. Illegal carry law - didn't stick. Thrown right back on the streets. Safe act hasn't changed anything. And classifying someone as a felon may take away a vote!

    Gun control is the definition of "politics".
    Obama admin passed laws/orders expanding gun rights. They made bump stocks legal. And the majority of laws/exec orders rejected by congress were already on the books.
    I get it. These guys in Albany, Washington etc make their livings off passing laws and aligning to the people they represent. And in some parts of the state/country, the 2nd amendment and being able to own firearms prevents extreme measures like an outright ban on firearms (which would be an incredibly difficult and lengthy roll-out).

    I don't think anything changes unless the pro-gun lobby concedes to the rest of the population and willingly lets stricter laws/less availability pass through the government. Or the anti-gun lobby aligns more towards the pro-gun side, though I don't know what that would look like. Do you have any insight on that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    First, the majority of the gun-related crimes in the US are from illegal guns (depending on which stats, you are looking at upward of 80%). More regulation is just going to increase that number. Again, criminals dont follow laws, so more regulation isnt going to stop it. Second, we have discriminatory laws against certain tests when it comes to guaranteed rights. Certain tests would probably eliminate certain groups of people, resulting in "discrimination".

    Its just an overall lacking of societal needs. The most recent rampager - he was just in jail, has a history of domestic abuse, neighbors saying he was always getting in fights and shooting off guns, he was a marijuana grower, history of mental illness... family didnt do anything (bailed him out of jail), sheriff ignored the case... no one is looking out for one another. Even here, we have BLM vs Police, and all that crap. We arent taught how to function, how to look out for one another. You cant say "hey, this guy has lost his mind, I fear hes going to go on a killing rampage" without getting labeled an asshole, even though you are trying to help out. What good will more laws do if we dont enforce them? What good is mental help when you cant identify it?
    Maybe if we stopped saying people we disagree with are forcing "ignorant political positions" and calling them "dumb fucking liberals" that would be a start.

    And now my mod hat - stop.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    "Too early to talk about guns. Prayers and thoughts and us still getting our pockets stuffed by the NRA is the answer"

    Sayeth the GOP

    Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk
    The first part of this post is fine. The second part "Sayeth the GOP" is not. Don't assign a particular opinion to an entire political group. It's dishonest.
    “Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― Neil Gaiman,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cash or Czech? View Post
    I get it. These guys in Albany, Washington etc make their livings off passing laws and aligning to the people they represent. And in some parts of the state/country, the 2nd amendment and being able to own firearms prevents extreme measures like an outright ban on firearms (which would be an incredibly difficult and lengthy roll-out).

    I don't think anything changes unless the pro-gun lobby concedes to the rest of the population and willingly lets stricter laws/less availability pass through the government. Or the anti-gun lobby aligns more towards the pro-gun side, though I don't know what that would look like. Do you have any insight on that?
    Well, that's the golden question.

    I'm a big proponent of states rights. What's good for NJ is t good for Wyoming, and vice versa. And more borders creates more issues.

    It's not a single thing that will change this, really. It's cultural.
    We are not going to randomly get rid of all illegal guns. And the laws we put in place only effect gun owners following the law, so what's the point?
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

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    Attention all:

    We don't attack each other or assign opinions to large groups of people that they may not possess. Find better ways to make your points. This is the warning, infractions will follow.
    “Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― Neil Gaiman,

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Well, that's the golden question.

    I'm a big proponent of states rights. What's good for NJ is t good for Wyoming, and vice versa. And more borders creates more issues.

    It's not a single thing that will change this, really. It's cultural.
    We are not going to randomly get rid of all illegal guns. And the laws we put in place only effect gun owners following the law, so what's the point?
    I completely agree with that. So 'is a change in philosophy the necessary step' is the big question for me. Do we as a culture take a step away from gun ownership. Do we as a culture start stepping up and calling out people with signs of mental illness? Whichever it is, it needs to be education and a grassroots effort. Big government doesn't make the change, the citizens do. I think concessions can be made on both ends. I don't think AR-15s are necessary to own. I don't think extended clips are necessary to own. I also think more education to identify mental disease is a must.

    But I don't know what else can be done to not alienate gun owners or come off as gun owners being the ones to take the loss.

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    Get rid of political parties and lobbying, to start.
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

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    I don't think we need more laws, and certainly, no laws should violate the Constitution. What we do need to is better enforcement of some of the existing laws, both at the State and Federal levels. Then, relax drug laws, release non-violent drug offenders from prison, then use those resources to go after and incarcerate violent offenders. And leave vilent offenders in prison longer. In fact, I'd make mandatory minimums for attempted murder and attempted rape the same as murder and rape. Just because you fail at your crime shouldn't mean you get a less harsh punishment. And with taking all those drug offenders out of prison, we'll have plenty of new beds for these folks.

    We need to find a way to revitalize the inner cities through gentrification and employment opportunities to replace the income that will be lost by former drug dealing. Lets elevate these folks up and see if we can't cut into the culture of violence and class warfare.

    Lets increase mental health services so that we can reduce the number of suicides and also the wackaloon murderers too.

    After we've done all that, we can say we've done our best within the confines of the freedoms we enjoy. And there will still be gun deaths. There should be far fewer, thouhg. And we'll have to be OK with that.
    “Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― Neil Gaiman,

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Get rid of political parties and lobbying, to start.
    All about this. Always been all about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cash or Czech? View Post
    Then how do you crack down on those that aren't following these procedures? If the problem is illegally acquiring guns, how do you prevent it or lessen it?
    That's the job of the ATF, but that only affects the the people with FFL's that are trying to follow the law. There is no way to "crackdown" on illegal sales because they're happening under the radar. The people partaking in these transactions are deliberately hiding. I can assure you, the feds and your local law enforcement are constantly taking illegally possessed guns off the street, yet gang bangers (second highest cause of gun deaths after suicide) are always armed. They will find more guns. You want to lesson it, the police need more support and resources, but no one likes that answer. No one wants to pay more taxes to fund it. People don't realize what it actually takes to do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    That's the job of the ATF, but that only affects the the people with FFL's that are trying to follow the law. There is no way to "crackdown" on illegal sales because they're happening under the radar. The people partaking in these transactions are deliberately hiding. I can assure you, the feds and your local law enforcement are constantly taking illegally possessed guns off the street, yet gang bangers (second highest cause of gun deaths after suicide) are always armed. They will find more guns. You want to lesson it, the police need more support and resources, but no one likes that answer. No one wants to pay more taxes to fund it. People don't realize what it actually takes to do it.
    I have a feeling that most individuals would be willing to pay more taxes in order to feel safe. In order to stop the what seems like weekly massacres. To slow down inner city crime. It's probably a better plan than lessening taxes so the rich and corporations can make more money (and maybe, just maybe but probably not trickle it down to the middle and lower class).

    But I've never heard of a single politician suggest this. And that puzzles me. If it's as easy as reallocating part of a budget to step up enforcement, why isn't that put on the table?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    I don't think we need more laws, and certainly, no laws should violate the Constitution. What we do need to is better enforcement of some of the existing laws, both at the State and Federal levels. Then, relax drug laws, release non-violent drug offenders from prison, then use those resources to go after and incarcerate violent offenders. And leave vilent offenders in prison longer. In fact, I'd make mandatory minimums for attempted murder and attempted rape the same as murder and rape. Just because you fail at your crime shouldn't mean you get a less harsh punishment. And with taking all those drug offenders out of prison, we'll have plenty of new beds for these folks.
    This is a giant misconception in my professional opinion. What drug laws do you want relaxed? Are you talking Federal Prison? Because no one is in federal prison for drug crimes unless they are trafficking large amounts. On the State side prisons are not full of first time drug offenders. I'm a probation/parole officer in Utah. Our probation caseloads are full of drug offenders. They get multiple chances to do treatment. They have options for FREE treatment. If they are unsuccessful on probation they still rarely go to prison for drugs alone. I don't want to get off on a 'War on Drugs' tangent. But you don't need to create new beds for violent offenders, if they need a bed for a violent offender they'll release a non-violent one early, they won't let the violent one go.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    We need to find a way to revitalize the inner cities through gentrification and employment opportunities to replace the income that will be lost by former drug dealing. Lets elevate these folks up and see if we can't cut into the culture of violence and class warfare.
    Absolutely agree, but I'm almost positive we'll disagree about how to do it. There needs to be an extreme war on gangs. I'm talking National Guard sweeping neighborhoods and rounding up the known gang bangers. I'm talking capital punishment for the shot callers. Trust me your local agencies have gang task forces and they know where all these people are; however, we treat gang bangers as everyday criminals. They are not. They are terror organizations and they oppress the people in their communities and make it impossible for gentrification, hard work and education to take over.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Lets increase mental health services so that we can reduce the number of suicides and also the wackaloon murderers too.
    This again has problems. We're too PC. I agree with increasing mental health services in the from of State Hospitals. Just like substance abuse, mental health treatment only works as far as the afflicted person is willing to participate. People with serious mental illnesses that either refuse treatment or cannot medically control their illness need to be institutionalized. And its up to friends, families, and neighbors to identify the people that are suffering from mental illness.

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