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Thread: Schoenfeld, Leger, Sather, and Risebrough Attend Montreal vs Ottawa Game

  1. #61
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    Need to spread out prospects a bit more. Can't afford to stick up, the. Get in a cap crunch like we are no, when they are all due new contracts.

    I'd prefer quality over quantity.
    And put prospect pool isn't as scarce as people believe

  2. #62
    Member Mite Division Fatfrancesa's Avatar
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    Giacomin your opinion differs from mine and that's what's these sites are for. I don't want anything to do with rnh and I think he would be a mistake even if we just took his cap hit for no players off the roster. I've never liked the player and would bet anything that 190 is heavily padding his weight. Still doesn't say anything for his strength which is pitiful. He's not what this team needs but I understand your opinion. Hopefully we will never find out if he'd be a good player here. But if he comes I will hope you're right

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Dear Future and Fatty Francesa, let's get a few things straight. RNH is 24 y/o and 190lbs (multiple sources). Future, you are confusing skating with standing still. If Step could skate like RNH, he'd be an all star and still a Ranger. It's like comparing Carey's skating to Hags. Another issue you miss, maybe Step ages terribly, but his D sucked last year. To boot, he was our worst forward on D, in the playoffs. RNH can play D and is better at it then ever. He is getting O-zone responsibilities because Leon got injured and he can play either role. He'd be a much better 2C here, than Step was last year, or will be ever.
    What does his weight have to do anything? Idk what you mean by confusing skating with standings still? How is RNH a better skater? He's not much faster, he's not any stronger on the puck. He's more creative as a puckhandler but that's got nothing to do with his skating. It's not like RNH is out there making plays by being an explosive skater. If anything, he makes plays by slowing the game down and seeing the ice or getting in a good position while trailing - which is exactly what Stepan does.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYQlsLLSNow
    The goals at 2:20, 2:25, 2:35, 2:43, 2:55 are all about positioning. The assist at 3:15 is about controlling pace, manipulating the defense and making the pass. At no point does he use his physical skating as any sort of weapon.

    How was Step our worst forward on D? Please show me something that suggests that to be true - which goals were his fault? "I watch the games" isn't good enough for me to buy something like that. He plays against other teams' top lines consistently, so I don't even know who or what you're comparing him to. Lindberg played against other 4th liners, it carries no weight here.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Bantam Division Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc's Avatar
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    Im dreaming about Marner. The guy had 61 points in 77 games in his rookie season as a 19 y/o and Toronto plays him on the 4th line now. How messed up are their forward Group? He must be available, no? I would consider trading McD for him.

    McD for Marner, Nash for a late 1st at the deadline and trade Hayes for a 2nd and prospect. Marner would be our #1C with Zib as #2 and Chytil, Andersson ready for next season.

    I've said it multiple times, but every cup winner the last decade had a superstar #1C. Its like having a superstar QB. Marner obviously has the potensial, Toronto uses him as a 4th line winger so they shouldnt have any trouble trading him and they would get that important #1D they lack.

    We would have Marner, Zib, Chytil, Andersson down the middle, Skjei, ADA, Day, Graves, Pionk, Bere+ on D, Igor as future #1G and two 1st and two 2nd's in next years draft. Would be contenders again in 2-3 years.

  5. #65
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    Neither Graves, Pionk, or Bereglazov are NHL defenceman, nor are they assured of being anything that resembles one. None can be considered kids, either. I think if one becomes a regular, we'll be doing well.

    However, I'd also like Marner but if the Rangers still have eyes on competing this year I don't see how you trade McD.

  6. #66
    Member Mite Division Fatfrancesa's Avatar
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    And that's the problem. This franchise will forever chase an 8 seed instead of doing what it takes to chase a cup

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Need to spread out prospects a bit more. Can't afford to stick up, the. Get in a cap crunch like we are no, when they are all due new contracts.

    I'd prefer quality over quantity.
    And put prospect pool isn't as scarce as people believe
    Very, very good point. It is not anymore healthy to have 3 first round picks in one year than to have zero for three years. Both leads to bottlenecks of one sort or another.

    Even if the organization believes that 2018 is this unicorn draft year, other teams will think so too. Picks for the 2018 draft are valued much more than 2017 or 2019 picks - and perhaps the Rangers could take advantage of that and stockpile some good picks for coming years instead of paying a heavy overprice for 2018 picks.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc View Post

    I've said it multiple times, but every cup winner the last decade had a superstar #1C. Its like having a superstar QB.
    It depends on your definition of "superstar". Who was the superstar C of Los Angeles? Kopitar?

    And even if we buy that premise - you must concede that it's very much possible to win a conference without one - unless you cound Joe Pavelski or Ryan Johansen as superstars?

  9. #69
    Senior Member Bantam Division Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    Neither Graves, Pionk, or Bereglazov are NHL defenceman, nor are they assured of being anything that resembles one. None can be considered kids, either. I think if one becomes a regular, we'll be doing well.

    However, I'd also like Marner but if the Rangers still have eyes on competing this year I don't see how you trade McD.
    I wasnt implying that either, I just mentioned all the young prospects we have in the system right now. Lets say ADA and Pionk turns out to be 3rd pair players. We then have Skjei, Shatty, Smith, (Staal), ADA and Pionk. Include possible trades/FA-signings or even drafting a D and it should be fine even without McD. Besides Nashville, it is not many teams with really good D, but they compensate with superstar forwards (Oilers, Penguins, Capitals, Toronto).

    If they still think they can compete this year Im done with this team. This team is not nearly good enough. Stop chasing 8th seed and 1st or 2nd round exits. Suck one year, trade away older FA's and they are right back in it. Im conviced all it takes is 1 year of sucking.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Bantam Division Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenvold View Post
    It depends on your definition of "superstar". Who was the superstar C of Los Angeles? Kopitar?

    And even if we buy that premise - you must concede that it's very much possible to win a conference without one - unless you cound Joe Pavelski or Ryan Johansen as superstars?
    Kopitar had 76 and 70 points in 2012 and 2014, including being a ppg player in both playoffs with 20 in 20 and 26 in 26. Combine that with his above average defensive play and you have a superstar C.

    The west has been weak the last couple of years, but both of them got to the final because of really solid D. Besides, mentioning them just proves my point even more. Allroud solid teams are good, but if you want to og all the way, you need that little extra in form of a superstar(s).

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenvold View Post
    It depends on your definition of "superstar". Who was the superstar C of Los Angeles? Kopitar?

    And even if we buy that premise - you must concede that it's very much possible to win a conference without one - unless you cound Joe Pavelski or Ryan Johansen as superstars?
    I don't think you need a superstar C, but you can do it with two top-line quality guys.

    Neither Kopitar nor Carter, on their own, is a superstar, but their last Cup they might've been the best one-two combo in the league, other than Crosby and Malkin. That's the model the Rangers tried to mimic, but Stepan and Richards/Zib/whoever don't quite have the same talent.

  12. #72
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    No Marner. If we are entertaining the idea of trading McD to Toronto, its for Nylander.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Need to spread out prospects a bit more. Can't afford to stick up, the. Get in a cap crunch like we are no, when they are all due new contracts.

    I'd prefer quality over quantity.
    And put prospect pool isn't as scarce as people believe
    But that is a good problem to have. If you have so many good young players that you can't sign them all, you figure out which ones fit the best and trade the ones that don't. Those trades should return younger prospects and/or higher draft picks.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    No Marner. If we are entertaining the idea of trading McD to Toronto, its for Nylander.
    I can respect that. I love watching both immensely, each is crafty and highly skilled. Nylander is like a smooth illusionist who can slow the play down but still makes quick decisions and moves. Marner is the misdirecting fast-talking magician doing everything like a flashy wizard who pops into tight spots and zips about with urgency. They both appear on their way to being 'special' players.

    This has been extensively debated this offseason, on the Toronto and HF Boards. The question was....
    If mgmt traded for the #1D we need (you want), but it cost either Nylander or Marner, who do you keep?

    Hundreds of Leaf freaks were almost equally split between the two. Too close to call. Wonder where they would stand today?

    Marner is the victim of Babcock's desire to have balance throughout his 4 lines. They had success last year, that way. And Babcock loves Martin and thinks the roster needs him getting regular shifts. So the word from Toronto is this has nothing to do with any issue regarding Marner, that it is about line construction. Who knows for sure, but I heard a few reporters recently say Babcock is so stubborn when he believes he can make something work that he will stick with it and refuse to give any further explanation except "balance". Rumor also has it that Babcock does think the team needs a high-end Dman.

    Toronto mgmt may have their own internal debate on who they would trade, since they have so many key influencers. You know the Hunters love Marner, but what about Lou and Shanny and Babcock? That's if they are even considering it. If I was to guess who Toronto thinks is more valuable, it would be the guy playing with Mathews. But that's just a guess.

    Edit: if we are lucky enough to get either, let's party. Unfortunately, the Leafs will ultimately wimp out and trade someone like JVR+ or another player and prospect/pick for a second pair Dman. Or worse, go cheap and overrate a marginal Dman from say, Vegas. It's easy to make trades when you are a tanking drunken seller. Can they pull off a good hockey trade in season, let alone a blockbuster? Without a serious improvement to the D they will not win the Cup this year.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 11-03-2017 at 11:53 AM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    But that is a good problem to have. If you have so many good young players that you can't sign them all, you figure out which ones fit the best and trade the ones that don't. Those trades should return younger prospects and/or higher draft picks.
    Or, more realistically, you are stuck with a middling core, no superstar, a bunch of middle 6 guys that the fans love, but aren't bad enough to get rid of or get you a high pick and aren't good enough to win the cup.

    Sound familiar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Or, more realistically, you are stuck with a middling core, no superstar, a bunch of middle 6 guys that the fans love, but aren't bad enough to get rid of or get you a high pick and aren't good enough to win the cup.

    Sound familiar?
    If they are all middle six guys you shouldn't be in a cap crunch...

  17. #77
    Member Mite Division Fatfrancesa's Avatar
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    I would think the leafs would keep nylander as he and Matthews have great chemistry together. I would also think that if the leafs were to trade marner that a slew of teams would want to make an offer. Would mcd be the best trade for Toronto? I would think the ducks, flyers, canes, and Nashville would all have say in that with the abundance of high end defenseman they all have. Mcd is also a ufa in 2019 which means long term he may not be a fit. The leafs have all the leverage in this scenario. He's a high end top line forward still on his elc, that is worth a lot and more than anything there is no rush to have to move him. If I was Lou mcd alone is never going to be enough for marner. Marner's age and contract would attract rebuilders and contenders alike. I would love to see it happen but I do think it's a little bit of a pipe dream

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    If they are all middle six guys you shouldn't be in a cap crunch...
    We're in a cap crunch

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    We're in a cap crunch
    Because of Staal, Girardi, and Nash. Not because of middle six depth.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc View Post
    I wasnt implying that either, I just mentioned all the young prospects we have in the system right now. Lets say ADA and Pionk turns out to be 3rd pair players. We then have Skjei, Shatty, Smith, (Staal), ADA and Pionk. Include possible trades/FA-signings or even drafting a D and it should be fine even without McD. Besides Nashville, it is not many teams with really good D, but they compensate with superstar forwards (Oilers, Penguins, Capitals, Toronto).

    If they still think they can compete this year Im done with this team. This team is not nearly good enough. Stop chasing 8th seed and 1st or 2nd round exits. Suck one year, trade away older FA's and they are right back in it. Im conviced all it takes is 1 year of sucking.
    Zuc, appreciate you opinions and agree with the idea that if we suck this year, a trade deadline and off-season rebuild, may be all the tanking required to be on the way to Cup contention. Yet, don't quit on the team if the players and coaches do what it takes to turn things around and make the playoffs. How many 7 & 8 seeds have made/won the Cup since the CBA? A bunch. Making the playoffs will be no easy feat, so it will likely to be fun and unless we run into a steamroller, it is a whole new season. What is more fun and exciting then playoff hockey? The regular season is meaningless to me at this point.

    And we won't be like that team that squeaked in under Torts, just happy to be there. Maybe more like San Jose 2 years ago. A playoff birth will need to be earned this year. And maybe we are playing our best hockey going in. Remember the Giants? Or facing Tampa who just lost Stamkos to injury. Carpe Diem.

    Also, I think there is more than one formula to win. You do have to compensate if the opponents has a significant advantage in high-end talent. It's been done before and will again. Regardless, we need a consistent and dynamic scoring threat, who can do it against the best. Goalies are too good these days. I would not pass up Marner/Nylander for McD no matter where we are at in the standings. Even if Zibs, Buch and Chytil hit their potential, we still need another young special top line scorer.

    Just like we need a true #1 RHD. The difference is he need not be a potential superstar. Just a guy like Josh Manson, who offers good O and great D. Pair him with either McD, or if traded, Skjei, and that pair can excel in every situation.

    So, back to my mantra for the season. If we suck, we'll suck. Then we'll do pretty much what we are hoping for. We'll get a first for Nash. Maybe trade Grabs for a 3rd and 4th. We can always resign him in the off season. We'll be in the draft lottery and have at least two #1's again, plus more.

    After that, who knows. I hope we get more aggressive then ever, if we don't look good at the deadline. In the offseason too, of course. I'd consider ANY offers for Hank and Staal, to shed salary. The better they are playing, the less retention. The better the return, the more we can retain. Dump Holden. Find out if Graves is an NHLer and settle a debate between me and Dunny.

    Stalk Toronto and pounce in a moment of weakness and trade McD for Marner. Or any other of the young budding scorers I've mentioned, that are not available. That is what we need for McD, not more draft choices in a lottery. We'll get those with other players.

    In the offseason, finish shedding salary and target UFAs only. Top priority is 25 y/o Mark Stone as our RW replacement for Nash. Then raid our metro buddies starting with adding 26 y/o solid Calvin da haan. Then 23 y/o Andreas Athanasiou.

    We could also consider 25 y/o Erik Gudbranson or 26 y/o current Devil John Moore, who is a much better player than the guy we saw here.

    The only guys I'd even look into at C are Tavares, 28 y/o Kyle Turris, maybe 26 y/o Jon Marchessault. If righty Stone doesn't work the only other RW to consider is 28 y/o Cam Atkinson.

    At LW there is 28 y/o JVR (seeking too long a term) or another local in 28 y/o Josh Bailey. Or 27 y/o Matt Calvert. 30 y/o ironman speedster Andrew Cogliano would be a great add if cheap and short term.

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