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Thread: Rangers Must Use the Nuclear Option on Lundqvist

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    Rangers Must Use the Nuclear Option on Lundqvist

    RE the thread line, IMO a little too early to say “must use” I’ve seen Henrick right himself before after a bad start.


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    Thankfully the knowledgeable people that run the Rangers don't waste any time on the wild demands of some "fans" to blow up the whole roster after 10 games of an 82 game season

    NY fans are a special group.

    At this moment some of them are calling for demolution of both baseball, football and basketball franchises and all 3 hockey teams

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    ^^^ AMEN! A voice of reason actually exists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    Thankfully the knowledgeable people that run the Rangers don't waste any time on the wild demands of some "fans" to blow up the whole roster after 10 games of an 82 game season

    NY fans are a special group.

    At this moment some of them are calling for demolution of both baseball, football and basketball franchises and all 3 hockey teams

    Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk
    Not to agree or disagree with some fans calling to blow up the roster but you're convinced this team has turned things around after beating a winless team? Personally, I need to see much more to be convinced that they have what it takes.

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    I don't get the animosity "some fans" have towards others who obviously invest their time in being a fan. I'm all for a rebuild though if will never happen. This team can salvage this season but to what end? An 8 seed and an early exit, a respectable record but miss on playoffs and a mid teen pick? My issue with this franchise is that every year has to be the year. Which ends with never winning but countless trades and contracts that handcuff the team next year and years. There is nothing wrong with accepting the fact that this team has to many flaws to win a cup this year. So move on develop your youbg talent and move some pieces that help in the future. I don't like the coach at all but making a change there really doesn't do much to the end result. I'm fine with hank sticking around for a rebuild. I'm not ok with this team making its moves because hank is nearing the end and they owe it to him to always go for it. Hank is nearing the end, they should be thinking about the next core group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangers4Life View Post
    Not to agree or disagree with some fans calling to blow up the roster but you're convinced this team has turned things around after beating a winless team? Personally, I need to see much more to be convinced that they have what it takes.
    Not convinced of anything after 10 games of an 82 game season

    Sorry if you want someone who wants to blow everything, discuss it with the fatfrancesa here or the real francesa who currently is ranting for the blowing up of all NY area teams that dare to not win a championship every season


    Except for hockey of which the real francesa knows or cares as much as quantum physics

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    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    Not convinced of anything after 10 games of an 82 game season

    Sorry if you want someone who wants to blow everything, discuss it with the fatfrancesa here or the real francesa who currently is ranting for the blowing up of all NY area teams that dare to not win a championship every season


    Except for hockey of which the real francesa knows or cares as much as quantum physics

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    I see that you and Long Time Fan are alike, possibly brothers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClearedForContact View Post
    The 2-6-2 start to the 17/18 season is an exclamation point on that reality. If GM Jeff Gorton is brave and as good at his job as he seems to be, that leaves only two options moving forward. Convince Lundqvist to waive his No Movement Clause (NMC) and find a team willing to take on up to 50% of his remaining contract or to buyout the legendary goaltender’s contract at the co
    Mike, this might be all over the place, hopefully there is message to take away. Here goes:

    It is hard to deal with any premises like we "must trade Hank now" and the whole "tank" talk or "tear down and start a total rebuild" fanspeak. Little of it is grounded in the reality of living life, playing sports, athletics or human nature. It is almost like some fans were never athletes or didn't play competitive team sports and only view the game using regressive analysis and data, forgetting basic realities. For instance, how does any fan expect to get any one individual, let alone a group of professionals to "tank", instead of working towards improving their game, their career, their circumstances and opportunities? How does one expect a coach or mgmt to quit so early in a season and send a quitter's message to everyone up and down an organization? It is not the real world. It may even seem like longterm thinking, but it is fraught with unpredictable variables that can set-off all kinds of random events and outcomes.

    Mike, your article says there is only two options for Hank, at this point. That is a very narrow way of viewing the situation and possible futures. I can think of many different approaches and future outcomes. Even unusual occurrences like an injury to an aging Hank or retirement or other impactful things that can not be projected, add up to create other alternatives. You go on to say there will be no shortage of suitors, imply it will be easy to convince Hank to waive, etc. I disagree. Timing is a huge factor. At the moment there are likely few if any suitors and Hank is not necessarily waiving anything at this point to finish his career in Winnipeg or Edmonton.

    In general, it is hard to get on board with this new common wisdom that fans (and thus mgmt and players) should/can just predict everything. The from our hubris, impose drastic solutions early with no thought of reality, rules, and certainly not nuance. And it is thoroughly UNNECESSARY.

    Why is it unnecessary? Because there are rules, NMCs, trading protocols, trade deadlines, human nature, things we can not predict and tons of other factors. yet, more importantly, this is why we play the games. Think about if there is a reason to request a tank, if we really suck? Not really. If we suck, we'll suck. It will be reflected in the record, once we have a much larger sample size. The trade deadline is late, many more games to play. Also, not every year comes a Mathews, McDavid or Crosby and even when it happens, the lottery decreases your chances significantly that even the worst record is likely not to pick one or two.

    Do I think we might suck enough to miss the playoffs. Certainly, but I don't fuckin know. yet. I predicted it. The time to take action (or call for action) was at the end of last season leading up to the expansion the 2017 draft. I started a thread called "In Chaos there is Opportunity", anticipating the expansion draft, the possible trades, trading Step, etc. After what resulted and by the end of that thread, I was pissed. I was very negative about the off season and projected that we would regress. Some of you guys told me to relax, the off season was hardly over. Yet, now in Oct some here are talking overhaul when it is too late to make an impact and too soon in the season to make a determination about our talent and team. Plus too soon to have other GMs ready to make impactful moves. It is not practical or pragmatic.

    If we really want to trade Hank, things like timing, circumstances, approach and other criteria are critical. For instance, is Hank more likely to waive now or near the deadline when mgmt is telling him that the playoffs do not look realistic? Or if/when mgmt tells him we are rebuilding and he will have to endure it? Neither is happening this month or next.

    More concerns: Isn't it better to wait for a contender or two to emerge who lose their goalie or are desperately seeking a goalie because there original solution failed? Isn't it better to have a team or two inquire, rather than put out a message (that the media will eventually discover) that we'd be willing to trade Hank? If we overtly want to move Hank his value will be in even more question. As respecttheblue said, why "must" we trade Hank now anyway? We are one tenth of the way, we have an uncertain backup. Panic and desperation impede strategy and success.

    To all you guys... Isn't it better to be sellers at the deadline, when GMs are looking to add a key piece and are competing for talent? How about waiting to be sellers, so that we can get more info on this year, before we quit? I'm not saying don't make a hockey trade. But let's not sell Nash and others now, for the paltry picks some of you mentioned. Nash should command a first (or at least two #2s) if his play remains the same. If we aren't contenders we'll be sellers. Let's cross that bridge when we get there. Right now there is much more road to travel.

    Some folks need to enjoy the journey. You might be dead in 2022 anyway. The time to bitch about the trip has passed. The planning stage is over, you have embarked, your plans and travel mates are set. The time to regressively analyze the trip is down the road. We need to experience more before radically changing course on the fly. So does the rest of the league. A full tank is not a moderate adjustment, it is a drastic yet somewhat nebulous destruction of of the team.

    Hey this is a discussion board, shouldn't we discuss it? Hell yeah, but let's get a little real. If we talk about trading Nash, let's make it grounded in the inevitable factor that it will be because mgmt does not see us contending and we are sellers and there will be buyers. If we are going to trade Hank we must have actual teams that WANT, NEED, HAVE CAP FOR Hank and he WILL ALSO WAIVE FOR. That does not even address the return, need for retention or who plays goal for the Rangers, this year or next. And he isn't leaving the Rangers in Oct or Nov. Or if we are looking like a playoff team.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 10-27-2017 at 01:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Respecttheblue View Post
    RE the thread line, IMO a little too early to say “must use” I’ve seen Henrick right himself before after a bad start.


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    This isn't just about Hank. It's about the chance of this club, with any reasonable changes made, winning a cup in the next three seasons.

    I would put the odds of that at like 25 to 1. Tear it down and rebuild and I think you can get those odds for like 4-7 years out at 5 to 1 or so. Means two years of absolute pain, but the good news is, this can be year 1 if we move quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    Thankfully the knowledgeable people that run the Rangers don't waste any time on the wild demands of some "fans" to blow up the whole roster after 10 games of an 82 game season

    NY fans are a special group.

    At this moment some of them are calling for demolution of both baseball, football and basketball franchises and all 3 hockey teams

    Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk
    This is just dismissive without any value to the conversation at all. You're basically saying, "you're just dumb." And since I put a lot more thought and evidence into my opinion, I'll stick with it unless you can provide something else of value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    Not convinced of anything after 10 games of an 82 game season

    Sorry if you want someone who wants to blow everything, discuss it with the fatfrancesa here or the real francesa who currently is ranting for the blowing up of all NY area teams that dare to not win a championship every season


    Except for hockey of which the real francesa knows or cares as much as quantum physics

    Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk
    This isn't about one season. It's really about the past three seasons. Hank is on a steady decline. Yes, he can still be "the guy" for stretches. His compete level is off the charts. But as the Rangers get further and further away from being able to play sound defensively, the reality that Hank simply can't save this team becomes more apparent.

    Again, that's last year and the year before.

    The shame of it is, that the last few years' team, with Hank from the Torts' years, maybe they get over the hump and the goal scoring and elite goaltending mitigate the pourous defense. And now they're not even scoring goals at a high enough clip. As I said in the article, the start to the season isn't the reason for what I wrote, it's the exclamation point.

  12. #32
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    Hi Giacomin, first of all, I'm Dave and the author of the article. Mike is Future. No worries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Mike, this might be all over the place, hopefully there is message to take away. Here goes:

    It is hard to deal with any premises like we "must trade Hank now" and the whole "tank" talk or "tear down and start a total rebuild" fanspeak. Little of it is grounded in the reality of living life, playing sports, athletics or human nature. It is almost like some fans were never athletes or didn't play competitive team sports and only view the game using regressive analysis and data, forgetting basic realities. For instance, how does any fan expect to get any one individual, let alone a group of professionals to "tank", instead of working towards improving their game, their career, their circumstances and opportunities? How does one expect a coach or mgmt to quit so early in a season and send a quitter's message to everyone up and down an organization? It is not the real world. It may even seem like longterm thinking, but it is fraught with unpredictable variables that can set-off all kinds of random events and outcomes.
    I have played competitive organized sports, but I don't think that matters all that much to this conversation. You're not asking the players to throw games or the coaches to try to lose. You're simply gutting the team and replacing them with an inferior roster to the rest of the league. Then you're telling your coach to teach towards the system. Arizona is a perfect example of this. The roster is fatally flawed. In their case, it's a money issue. But still. They said on the broadcast last night, their coaching staff is teaching towards the system even if playing a more defensive style might win them more games. They're concerned with getting the team to play a certain way that will benefit them in the long run. So that's how you handle that.

    Mike, your article says there is only two options for Hank, at this point. That is a very narrow way of viewing the situation and possible futures. I can think of many different approaches and future outcomes. Even unusual occurrences like an injury to an aging Hank or retirement or other impactful things that can not be projected, add up to create other alternatives. You go on to say there will be no shortage of suitors, imply it will be easy to convince Hank to waive, etc. I disagree. Timing is a huge factor. At the moment there are likely few if any suitors and Hank is not necessarily waiving anything at this point to finish his career in Winnipeg or Edmonton.
    I don't think it would be easy to convince Hank to waive. He'll have to want to go to the team you're trading him to. Or at least want that over a buyout and losing the chance to win a Cup this season. The reason to trade first is the assets you get back. What you can't risk is Hank's pride and legacy in NY making it impossible to rebuild now with him, impossible to bench him if he still thinks he can play. Sure, him retiring at the end of the season is better than a buyout. And if he refuses a trade, you can discuss that option. But if you're going to rebuild, you can't risk having Hank on the roster and preventing you from losing enough games. It's poor asset management in that situation.

    In general, it is hard to get on board with this new common wisdom that fans (and thus mgmt and players) should/can just predict everything. The from our hubris, impose drastic solutions early with no thought of reality, rules, and certainly not nuance. And it is thoroughly UNNECESSARY.

    Why is it unnecessary? Because there are rules, NMCs, trading protocols, trade deadlines, human nature, things we can not predict and tons of other factors. yet, more importantly, this is why we play the games. Think about if there is a reason to request a tank, if we really suck? Not really. If we suck, we'll suck. It will be reflected in the record, once we have a much larger sample size. The trade deadline is late, many more games to play. Also, not every year comes a Mathews, McDavid or Crosby and even when it happens, the lottery decreases your chances significantly that even the worst record is likely not to pick one or two.
    I think you'll struggle to find someone outside of hockey employment as well versed in the CBA and salary cap as I am. I've studied both for a lot of years now. I can also predict certain things with some degree of accuracy. I can also look at trends. Show me cup winner since Detroit in 2008 that didn't benefit from at least one top 5 pick. At best, you can point to Boston, who traded Kessel (5th overall) and got Seguin (2nd overall) just prior to their Cup win. So generously, that's 2 of the last 10 that didn't tank for a Cup.

    Do I think we might suck enough to miss the playoffs. Certainly, but I don't fuckin know. yet. I predicted it. The time to take action (or call for action) was at the end of last season leading up to the expansion the 2017 draft. I started a thread called "In Chaos there is Opportunity", anticipating the expansion draft, the possible trades, trading Step, etc. After what resulted and by the end of that thread, I was pissed. I was very negative about the off season and projected that we would regress. Some of you guys told me to relax, the off season was hardly over. Yet, now in Oct some here are talking overhaul when it is too late to make an impact and too soon in the season to make a determination about our talent and team. Plus too soon to have other GMs ready to make impactful moves. It is not practical or pragmatic.
    I can't address what others said. I've been calling for a full rebuild since they lost to Tampa the year after going to the Final. It was clear they were on the other side of it. Had they rebuilt then, they'd be coming out of the other side of it now and be ready, next season probably, to start being competitive again. Instead, they got pounded by the Penguins, and lost in the second round last season. Last season was clearly an over reach, too. Their offense clicked in a way no one could have expected, even as their defensive game continued to diminish. It still wasn't close to being enough to compete for a Cup though.

    If we really want to trade Hank, things like timing, circumstances, approach and other criteria are critical. For instance, is Hank more likely to waive now or near the deadline when mgmt is telling him that the playoffs do not look realistic? Or if/when mgmt tells him we are rebuilding and he will have to endure it? Neither is happening this month or next.

    More concerns: Isn't it better to wait for a contender or two to emerge who lose their goalie or are desperately seeking a goalie because there original solution failed? Isn't it better to have a team or two inquire, rather than put out a message (that the media will eventually discover) that we'd be willing to trade Hank? If we overtly want to move Hank his value will be in even more question. As respecttheblue said, why "must" we trade Hank now anyway? We are one tenth of the way, we have an uncertain backup. Panic and desperation impede strategy and success.
    Of course if they are going to trade him, they'll have to wait for the right suiter. But they can start tearing other things down now.


    To all you guys... Isn't it better to be sellers at the deadline, when GMs are looking to add a key piece and are competing for talent? How about waiting to be sellers, so that we can get more info on this year, before we quit? I'm not saying don't make a hockey trade. But let's not sell Nash and others now, for the paltry picks some of you mentioned. Nash should command a first (or at least two #2s) if his play remains the same. If we aren't contenders we'll be sellers. Let's cross that bridge when we get there. Right now there is much more road to travel.
    That depends on the player and how much they have left under contract. If a team feels they're a goaltender away from being competitive but might not make the playoffs because of it, then they can use someone like Hank now. Similar for Nash or Grabner. McDonagh and MZA absolutely have more value right now than at the deadline, imo.


    Some folks need to enjoy the journey. You might be dead in 2022 anyway. The time to bitch about the trip has passed. The planning stage is over, you have embarked, your plans and travel mates are set. The time to regressively analyze the trip is down the road. We need to experience more before radically changing course on the fly. So does the rest of the league. A full tank is not a moderate adjustment, it is a drastic yet somewhat nebulous destruction of of the team.
    I enjoy the journey so long as I see light at the end of the tunnel. If I'm speeding towards a brick wall and there is a turnoff up ahead that takes me in the direction I want to go, I'm not going to enjoy the ride into the wall.


    Hey this is a discussion board, shouldn't we discuss it? Hell yeah, but let's get a little real. If we talk about trading Nash, let's make it grounded in the inevitable factor that it will be because mgmt does not see us contending and we are sellers and there will be buyers. If we are going to trade Hank we must have actual teams that WANT, NEED, HAVE CAP FOR Hank and he WILL ALSO WAIVE FOR. That does not even address the return, need for retention or who plays goal for the Rangers, this year or next. And he isn't leaving the Rangers in Oct or Nov. Or if we are looking like a playoff team.
    The issue is that if you stay the course, even if they rebound some, you can end up with a 10th place finish in the East. You look at last year, that's Tampa. They picked 14th in the draft. If you tear it down now, you're much more likely looking at a top 5 pick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Hi Giacomin, first of all, I'm Dave and the author of the article. Mike is Future.
    I am Spartacus.

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    Who's on first?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    Who's on first?



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    I don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    I don't know.
    I don't know is on third.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Hi Giacomin, first of all, I'm Dave and the author of the article. Mike is Future. No worries.

    I have played competitive organized sports, but I don't think that matters all that much to this conversation. You're not asking the players to throw games or the coaches to try to lose. You're simply gutting the team and replacing them with an inferior roster to the rest of the league. Then you're telling your coach to teach towards the system. Arizona is a perfect example of this. The roster is fatally flawed. In their case, it's a money issue. But still. They said on the broadcast last night, their coaching staff is teaching towards the system even if playing a more defensive style might win them more games. They're concerned with getting the team to play a certain way that will benefit them in the long run. So that's how you handle that.
    AJ = Dave, OK,catching on slowly. Thanks for the thoughtful comments to my response.

    The team clearly took the stance to compete this year, even while trimming a little age/salary, getting younger and adding an extra 1st to make up for some of the picks we traded. They stayed with a coach who has a known system, style, and proh sess. Once they chose this route, they now need to let things play out longer than 10 games to evaluate. It is too early to not trust the decisions they made and the plan they must have. How can the organization now take a radical sideturn this early in the season? Start an early firesale of our wanted players. Have AV change his system and who he is, to become a mentor of young flawed prospects?

    The season is not over yet. We started poorly in AV's first year and went to the finals. LA struggled significantly during their Cup years. The Pens were supposed to be out of it near xmas, two seasons ago, then won it all. It is so early that even Vegas, certain to be shopping forwards along with their glut of Dman, isn't making trades yet.

    There is time to maximize the future w/o trading off Zuc and McD for picks and prospects before November. As soon as we dump one of our best players it will be clear we gave up on the season already. And btw, it would also demonstrate mgmt fumbled the off season so abhorrently, as to now look incompetent. Two terrible messages to send.

    I don't think it would be easy to convince Hank to waive. He'll have to want to go to the team you're trading him to. Or at least want that over a buyout and losing the chance to win a Cup this season. The reason to trade first is the assets you get back. What you can't risk is Hank's pride and legacy in NY making it impossible to rebuild now with him, impossible to bench him if he still thinks he can play. Sure, him retiring at the end of the season is better than a buyout. And if he refuses a trade, you can discuss that option. But if you're going to rebuild, you can't risk having Hank on the roster and preventing you from losing enough games. It's poor asset management in that situation.
    Before we hit anything, your key premise is "the assets we get back in return." If this was the case, I'd agree with the whole paragraph. Here's the rub. The return would be minimal because of Hank's age and enormous salary for 4 more years, combined with his descending play. Your argument partly contends that Hank is a liability. There is little market demand for a liability.

    So, we need some luck and good timing. We need to wait for some demand, maybe a rash of injuries, a disillusioned GMs on the prowl for a netminder. That allows time for us to assess the roster better and maybe Hank goes on a run and increases his value. Also, time enables Hanks to see that the Rangers are going nowhere and he becomes more willing to consider waiving his NMC.

    I think you'll struggle to find someone outside of hockey employment as well versed in the CBA and salary cap as I am. I've studied both for a lot of years now. I can also predict certain things with some degree of accuracy. I can also look at trends. Show me cup winner since Detroit in 2008 that didn't benefit from at least one top 5 pick. At best, you can point to Boston, who traded Kessel (5th overall) and got Seguin (2nd overall) just prior to their Cup win. So generously, that's 2 of the last 10 that didn't tank for a Cup.
    I respect your opinions, assessments and good research. Yet, I'm not as convinced as you that the results 8 of the last 10 years is indicative of a formula we can follow with the same success. Three reasons jump out.

    1. The lottery makes it harder this year than last. Which was harder than the year prior. The rules keep making it more difficult to land a generational talent, simply by having the absolute worst record. And it would be difficult for this team to actually be in the bottom few overall, even with a firesale.

    2. You may not believe it, but our sample size is still too small to know if this is the real reason for those team's Cups. That tanking is a definite formula for surefire contention. There are teams that have selected high for a period of years and did not reach the finals.

    3. Once you get 4-5 picks in it can often be hard to tell if the better player is the one selected at 5 or 7 or 9. The Rangers were gonna take Keller 4th, he did not go till 7. Is he less of a talent? Many of the upcoming stars around the league were not taken in the top 5. Same for many of the Hall of Famers.

    I can't address what others said. I've been calling for a full rebuild since they lost to Tampa the year after going to the Final. It was clear they were on the other side of it. Had they rebuilt then, they'd be coming out of the other side of it now and be ready, next season probably, to start being competitive again. Instead, they got pounded by the Penguins, and lost in the second round last season. Last season was clearly an over reach, too. Their offense clicked in a way no one could have expected, even as their defensive game continued to diminish. It still wasn't close to being enough to compete for a Cup though.
    We disagree, I think the team underachieved in the second half and playoffs in the last two years. They should have beat Ottawa. Personnel moves (Boyle and G over Stralman, losing Hags, Clowe, Staal, Staal and even St Louis drained us of about 3 firsts and 5 seconds) didn't help, but this team should have been playing like they did in the first half. Whether I thought they were the 3-5th best team and you thought 8-10th best, they were still a long way from sucking. Besides, this draft was not top heavy.

    I enjoy the journey so long as I see light at the end of the tunnel. If I'm speeding towards a brick wall and there is a turnoff up ahead that takes me in the direction I want to go, I'm not going to enjoy the ride into the wall.
    There was a light at the end of the tunnel last year and so many of our top 9 disappeared while our D regressed even after adding a newcomer in Smith (who made an impact) and that a rookie sustained his level of play. Two guys AV had the least amount of time to influence. Players like Kreids, Miller and Step who've been good in the playoffs, sucked.

    A lot of that has to be on the coaching. Now AV has to turn around this ship, not Hank. AV should be the first to go, not Hank. Since he started the season here, AV deserves till Thanksgiving to fix things and accumulate some wins. If not, before we trade off our roster, change the coach.

  19. #39
    Senior Member Bantam Division
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    BTW, just so I'm not misunderstood, if someone wants to give us a 1st for Hank and not too much salary is retained beyond this year, I'm all for it.

    Just not going to get off the hook that easy.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 10-27-2017 at 09:14 PM.

  20. #40
    Senior Member Pee-Wee Division jamsim67's Avatar
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    10 games in, 7 points out of first. Don't think that warrants blowing the team up. That being said, if anybody is interested in Hank I think they should listen to what they have to offer. Same for Nash, and Staal. I'd like to see Hank, and Nash go to a team where they have a chance to win a cup. As for Staal, I'd just like to see him go. If he wins a cup, fine.

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