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Thread: Rangers Must Use the Nuclear Option on Lundqvist

  1. #41
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    Rangers Must Use the Nuclear Option on Lundqvist

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    This isn't just about Hank. It's about the chance of this club, with any reasonable changes made, winning a cup in the next three seasons.

    I would put the odds of that at like 25 to 1. Tear it down and rebuild and I think you can get those odds for like 4-7 years out at 5 to 1 or so. Means two years of absolute pain, but the good news is, this can be year 1 if we move quickly.
    You make an interesting point.

    Tantalus may yet dangle his bunch of Playoff grapes. It’s very early yet, although mathematically starting to get late.

    That said, I often wonder internally (more so than publicly here) what the “jumping off point” the could or should be across a wide range of hypothetical scenarios. Not that I am ready to jump off. But I do wonder.

    Remember when in Renney years the system was so bedraggled it was a fan hope just to be a playoff team?

    Now we have a team that “should” easily make the playoffs on paper, but which “appears” to be suddenly — or seemingly — I’m not sure which — knocking on mediocrity’s back door.

    Is it the trajectory that matters, or the relative position. Or is it a case of not having the generational talent? Or the generational goalie?

    I am pretty sure that whatever the case, management will wait much more patiently (, and/or change coach first) until closer to the deadline before pulling the plug/make trades of young prime age talent (Miller, Kreider, if that’s who we’re talking about when blowing up the team) for future high picks is concerned.

    After all the team might just have lost its way temporarily like they did in AVs first year before they rebounded dramatically. For me just way Too early to think about blowing a young developing core up. But I am thinking about Shestyorkin and how soon he will get here a lot more these days.

    (I’m assuming more age/cap-conscious decisions like Nash discussions are separate topics.)
    Last edited by Respecttheblue; 10-27-2017 at 11:33 PM.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Respecttheblue View Post
    Tantalus may yet dangle his bunch of Playoff grapes. It’s very early yet, although mathematically starting to get late.

    That said, I often wonder internally (more so than publicly here) what the “jumping off point” the could or should be across a wide range of hypothetical scenarios. Not that I am ready to jump off. But I do wonder.
    You write poetically, while I struggle to turn a phrase, let alone create a coherent thesis.

    When you wonder when it is time "to jump off" are you asking about the season or the squad?

    The season is simple. "It is starting to get late", just means there is plenty of time, if things begin to turnaround. It means it is time for the team to play with a sense of urgency. Improve their play, work harder and gain some confidence. Stop squandering points and start a series of runs beginning with winnable home games against zona, the habs and vegas.

    If AV can't turn this around by TGiving it will be his 3rd year in a row of underperformance and a change is in order. If the new coach doesn't improve the situation by around by early Jan, we become sellers. Any offers for Hank or Staal that do not carry much salary retention should be accepted w/o concern for the return. We encourage a bidding war for Nash and get more than a 1st round pick. Trade Holden and Desharnais. After that it gets harder. As I mentioned on previous threads, I'd look to trade McD for that young first line center (Toronto!) or a dynamic young scorer/playmaker like Ehlers. And I'd consider making the trade bigger (to make it more enticing) if we get another young piece back.

    That alone would be a substantial 1 year retool w/o gutting the core of young vets. It would put us so far below the cap that we could resign everyone, lock Marner up for 8 years and still have plenty of space to be the team ready to bail out an over-the-cap trading partner in the off season.

    You could make other tweaks such as trading Grabs, then resign him for 2 years and a small raise in the off season. He likes it here. Or consider hockey trades. How about Kreider for Rakell? Or Manson? Don't trade Zuc, he's got leadership, years left on his career and a bargain. Or trade Zuc for Manson? Trade both our firsts and a prospect or vet to move up to take a guy we believe could be a superstar? Sign the right free agent to good (not ridiculous) contract. Find a goalie to hold fort for Shesty's arrival in 2019.

    Just ideas, don't hate on any one move. Having all our picks and more, plus cap flexibility and more assets (choose your vet) to trade later gives us a great formula to "retool on the fly" in one year. We will be among the youngest and fastest teams in the league, a solid mix young vets and potential stars. A makeup that should far exceed what you see in zona.

    Now, if you are asking if it is time to "jump off" this squad, blowing the whole team up...

    I dunno. If mgmt sees key problems to the core young vets and wants to jettison guys like Miller and Kreids and Zuc on top of everyone over 30, then I guess. It just seems like a big leap and not the proper natural evolution of things.

    I'm a big believer in trying to get out in front of things (and problems), but sometimes it is better to let things develop. How else do we know if the real Miller or Kreids is the one we saw in last year's playoffs or the guy(s) we enjoyed in prior playoffs or the first half of last year?

    Being proactive or identifying young talent does not mean the team needs to be impatient with their evaluation or player development.

    Remember when in Renney years the system was so bedraggled it was a fan hope just to be a playoff team?

    Now we have a team that “should” easily make the playoffs on paper, but which “appears” to be suddenly — or seemingly — I’m not sure which — knocking on mediocrity’s back door.
    In pro sports there is a fine line between good and mediocre. Or mediocre and not so good. A couple of key injuries or slumps can change one's fate suddenly. So might losing an edge in the league. That could emanate from coaching or a key missing piece or not enough impactful role players, mediocre goaltending or just fewer dominating players compared to the rest of the contending teams.

    If the team does not play well or turn things around then adding a piece, making a trade or changing the coach are the next logical steps. The next month should tell us a lot.

    Is it the trajectory that matters, or the relative position. Or is it a case of not having the generational talent? Or the generational goalie?

    I am pretty sure that whatever the case, management will wait much more patiently (, and/or change coach first) until closer to the deadline before pulling the plug/make trades of young prime age talent (Miller, Kreider, if that’s who we’re talking about when blowing up the team) for future high picks is concerned.

    After all the team might just have lost its way temporarily like they did in AVs first year before they rebounded dramatically. For me just way Too early to think about blowing a young developing core up. But I am thinking about Shestyorkin and how soon he will get here a lot more these days.
    Trajectory mattered then. The Cap arrived and we needed to shed the past-their-prime-players and all of Sather's old ways to shuttle in a youth movement. Torts needed to teach the young kids fundamentals and how to be a responsible player in the NHL.

    The current roster makeup makes trajectory less important. We have a young team already and we have a bit of a mish mash of talent spread throughout the lineup and organization. If we find we are not really competing this year, mgmt will be sellers and add more youth and potential at the expense of older vets. That will gives us plenty of upward trajectory to build from if we have the right coach, draft well and find a dynamic star forward.

    I think you are right. Mgmt will wait some more before being seller. Certainly before blowing the whole thing up. Two good performances and 3 points(hopefully 4) in the next two games would be a critical place to start. It would take a little pressure off mgmt and allow AV the month to get us on track.

    As for Shesty, stop wondering. His KHL contract ends after next season. Barring a war with Russia, the earliest he can arrive is 2019. I think he'll be here.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 10-28-2017 at 01:05 PM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangers4Life View Post
    I see that you and Long Time Fan are alike, possibly brothers?
    Ill just ignore the personal attack or whatever you are trying to say and stick with the topic.

    Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

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    Points in 4 of past 5 games.

    Plan the parade.

  5. #45
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    I'm just a long time Ranger fan who roots for the team win or lose. I am not a professional journalist who spend weeks studying every minute detail. I was not aware that opinions of fans who have stuck with this team for more than 60 years were unacceptable because we didn't play or coach hockey or have our computers loaded with analytics.

    My comment was about fans of ALL NY teams who seem to call for massive firings and burning down the house unless a team wins a Championship every year. Currently you can hear that opinion on outlets like WFAN about both baseball, football and basketball teams and all three hockey teams. Even the Yankees who just played in their LCS are not immune and, in fact, dismissed their Manager.

    So I vote NO on dumping Hank, the second best Ranger goalie behind Giacomin IMO and the Head Coach after 10 games or so of an 82 game season

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    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    Ill just ignore the personal attack or whatever you are trying to say and stick with the topic.

    Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk
    All I'm saying is that you just seem to criticize others rather than offering your own opinion of what can be done. It's been obvious for some time that this team hasn't been good enough to win a cup, what do you suggest they do to get back on track? Stay status quo?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    You write poetically, while I struggle to turn a phrase, let alone create a coherent thesis.

    When you wonder when it is time "to jump off" are you asking about the season or the squad?

    The season is simple. "It is starting to get late", just means there is plenty of time, if things begin to turnaround. It means it is time for the team to play with a sense of urgency. Improve their play, work harder and gain some confidence. Stop squandering points and start a series of runs beginning with winnable home games against zona, the habs and vegas.

    If AV can't turn this around by TGiving it will be his 3rd year in a row of underperformance and a change is in order. If the new coach doesn't improve the situation by around by early Jan, we become sellers. Any offers for Hank or Staal that do not carry much salary retention should be accepted w/o concern for the return. We encourage a bidding war for Nash and get more than a 1st round pick. Trade Holden and Desharnais. After that it gets harder. As I mentioned on previous threads, I'd look to trade McD for that young first line center (Toronto!) or a dynamic young scorer/playmaker like Ehlers. And I'd consider making the trade bigger (to make it more enticing) if we get another young piece back.

    That alone would be a substantial 1 year retool w/o gutting the core of young vets. It would put us so far below the cap that we could resign everyone, lock Marner up for 8 years and still have plenty of space to be the team ready to bail out an over-the-cap trading partner in the off season.

    You could make other tweaks such as trading Grabs, then resign him for 2 years and a small raise in the off season. He likes it here. Or consider hockey trades. How about Kreider for Rakell? Or Manson? Don't trade Zuc, he's got leadership, years left on his career and a bargain. Or trade Zuc for Manson? Trade both our firsts and a prospect or vet to move up to take a guy we believe could be a superstar? Sign the right free agent to good (not ridiculous) contract. Find a goalie to hold fort for Shesty's arrival in 2019.

    Just ideas, don't hate on any one move. Having all our picks and more, plus cap flexibility and more assets (choose your vet) to trade later gives us a great formula to "retool on the fly" in one year. We will be among the youngest and fastest teams in the league, a solid mix young vets and potential stars. A makeup that should far exceed what you see in zona.

    Now, if you are asking if it is time to "jump off" this squad, blowing the whole team up...

    I dunno. If mgmt sees key problems to the core young vets and wants to jettison guys like Miller and Kreids and Zuc on top of everyone over 30, then I guess. It just seems like a big leap and not the proper natural evolution of things.

    I'm a big believer in trying to get out in front of things (and problems), but sometimes it is better to let things develop. How else do we know if the real Miller or Kreids is the one we saw in last year's playoffs or the guy(s) we enjoyed in prior playoffs or the first half of last year?

    Being proactive or identifying young talent does not mean the team needs to be impatient with their evaluation or player development.



    In pro sports there is a fine line between good and mediocre. Or mediocre and not so good. A couple of key injuries or slumps can change one's fate suddenly. So might losing an edge in the league. That could emanate from coaching or a key missing piece or not enough impactful role players, mediocre goaltending or just fewer dominating players compared to the rest of the contending teams.

    If the team does not play well or turn things around then adding a piece, making a trade or changing the coach are the next logical steps. The next month should tell us a lot.



    Trajectory mattered then. The Cap arrived and we needed to shed the past-their-prime-players and all of Sather's old ways to shuttle in a youth movement. Torts needed to teach the young kids fundamentals and how to be a responsible player in the NHL.

    The current roster makeup makes trajectory less important. We have a young team already and we have a bit of a mish mash of talent spread throughout the lineup and organization. If we find we are not really competing this year, mgmt will be sellers and add more youth and potential at the expense of older vets. That will gives us plenty of upward trajectory to build from if we have the right coach, draft well and find a dynamic star forward.

    I think you are right. Mgmt will wait some more before being seller. Certainly before blowing the whole thing up. Two good performances and 3 points(hopefully 4) in the next two games would be a critical place to start. It would take a little pressure off mgmt and allow AV the month to get us on track.

    As for Shesty, stop wondering. His KHL contract ends after next season. Barring a war with Russia, the earliest he can arrive is 2019. I think he'll be here.
    I think we speaka da same language.

    I have a lot of patience with the players, maybe too much. But that's my flaw. Quite frankly I am bemused at how invisible some folk have been and collectively, and think it unlikely they all hit sudden statistical decline prematurely in their careers — so it's somethign else.

    But it appears the discussion may become OBE "overtaken by events"
    as it seems the next shoe is about to drop ... behind the bench.

    I'd agree with whichever writer, probably Brooks, that there's been an uneasy tension about the team since the season opener & something may be about to happen. The coach is the far easier move — whether it's a scapegoat or a festering issue — to make from the POV of management, as it buys management time to figure out the next round of UFA personnel decisions/trades — Nash, Grabs, and quite possibly McDonagh, just by virtue of his next contract being a big one that the team might not want to go long and deep for.

    In other news, the lowly Knicks just manhandled LeBron and the Cavs. Hardaway came out of his funk, and the 28th place Knicks played team ball and clamped down defensively. Not somethign they are known for. It's two different teams, two different sports —*and one of the teams is playing a couple of young recent first round draft picks. It's only two games for the Knicks, but I think the Rangers are capable of a similar turnaround in the new hands. I like AV's injection of offensive creativity back into this team, but I fear not all is right between him and a large portion of the room. Just a gut.

    I think we speaka da same language. I have a lot of patience, maybe too much. But it seems the next shoe is about to drop ... I'd agree with whichever writer, probably Brooks, that there's been an uneasy tension about the team & somethg may be nigh
    If n ya gots jowls, they might as well be furry ones.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Respecttheblue View Post
    I have a lot of patience with the players, maybe too much. But that's my flaw. Quite frankly I am bemused at how invisible some folk have been and collectively, and think it unlikely they all hit sudden statistical decline prematurely in their careers — so it's somethign else.

    But it appears the discussion may become OBE "overtaken by events"
    as it seems the next shoe is about to drop ... behind the bench.
    Patience with players is not a flaw. Call it, taking the long view. It is necessary to evaluate and assess the career trajectory of each individual. This is what a GOOD Manager in any business/organization does with their personnel.

    Too often, armchair observers provide declarative general statements and assessments of the team, followed by all-too-certain opinions about the high profile players, critical positions or underperformers of the moment. Not enough understanding of the career trajectory and unique circumstances behind each individual player, their role and the team. Particularly when it comes to assessing the little things that might get better with practice, or maturity, or even different coaching and personnel use. Tons of nuances really.

    Mgmt and coaching has let us down regarding internal evaluation. Some examples:

    How did the coach (and later mgmt) continue to undervalue Stralman as a lockdown RHD who was often perfect in his outlet passes and kept free pucks from floating around the slot line?

    How did mgmt and the coach undervalue a 26 y/o Hags who provided special speed, defense and forechecking. How about his 100% effort, energy, ability to close out games with the lead and his determination to win. Win puck battles, games and big playoff series. I remember watching Hags take the ice in warmups before a few playoff games and you knew if everyone came with his attitude we'd be unstoppable. I watched Hags (a ton) then become one of the biggest pieces in the Pens turn-around from bad to a Cup. It started with the speed of Kessel and Daley, but Sully and Hags were the tipping point. Sheary and Rust and the young fast kids then put them over the top. It wasn't Crosby and Malkin. Those who only watched a few of their playoff games, clearly missed what they did and why Hags not only filled a need, but made the rest of the team better,

    Put it on the coach to miss Lindberg's real value. Sure part was due to his hip injury, so AV had to look to a different C to do the PK and play a defensive role. But once Oscar found his footing the coach needed to make adjustments immediately, let alone by the playoffs. Instead we saw him keep Buch and Oscar on the bench during one loss, when Oscar might have been the best player forward on the ice. This is why Gorton couldn't pay a price to protect him. AV didn't value him enough, even if mgmt did.

    More poor internal personnel evals? The list is lengthy. G, Staal, Stepniak, Staal. Pirri was with the team for too long a stretch before AV realized he was one dimensional. There are so many others.

    Now we have sophomore Vesey, who is currently playing like a 4th liner, even though he looked good in the playoffs and in camp. Did he suddenly lose all his talent and skills? Good kid, serious and a hard worker. Might it be coaching and early deployment?

    Buch looks like a beast now, but he is on the 4th line because of one iffy game. Coach won't try McD and Skjei as an occasional top pair? Especially given the situation. Holden plays the right side. Coach is not seeing how consistently he struggles on that side in the D zone? I could go on.

    So, we need to address the roster, but as you said, events are overtaking things. Which is fine. If AV can't change things and gets canned, we will get different eyes and different methods deployed on this group... and maybe get a better read. Just let's not forget that some of these guys have not hit their prime or peak, and time is necessary (both in developing and assessing) to make good decisions.

    The coach is the far easier move — whether it's a scapegoat or a festering issue — as it buys management time to figure out the next round of UFA personnel decisions/trades — Nash, Grabs, and quite possibly McDonagh, just by virtue of his next contract being a big one that the team might not want to go long and deep for.
    Exactly. Buying time, at this point, is prudent. This is 3 years in a row of underperformance and the team wants to keep getting younger. Some big moves and decisions need to happen and we can't do what Ariz, Fla, Colo, Isles, Bos and Buff have done in recent years. Squandered a lot of good opportunities or made horrible decisions that impeded success or more future potential.

    In other news, the lowly Knicks just manhandled LeBron and the Cavs. Hardaway came out of his funk, and the 28th place Knicks played team ball and clamped down defensively. Not somethign they are known for. It's two different teams, two different sports —*and one of the teams is playing a couple of young recent first round draft picks. It's only two games for the Knicks, but I think the Rangers are capable of a similar turnaround in the new hands. I like AV's injection of offensive creativity back into this team, but I fear not all is right between him and a large portion of the room. Just a gut.
    As a fellow Knick fan, let's not mix us the mess or the sport. In hoops the star touches the ball or impacts almost every play all game. Tanking is key and you need 3 stars and good role players to win a ship. There is no parity. In contrast, on most nights McJesus touches the puck about 1 minute 50 seconds a game.

    Unfortunately both organizations have one thing in particular, in common.

    BTW, the knicks need a total tank and these wins are killing us.

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    BTW, I think the Rangers wins tomorrow, playing desperate. However, what a weird-ass irony it would be if Oscar is a contributor to another Vegas win. One in MSG that results in AV's firing.

    I could only hope that if that happens, lemons turn to lemonade as Gorton makes a small trade to bring him back.

    Don't get me wrong folks, no one player is a savior. Yet, every player (on our roster) in this NHL, is important. It is the cumulation of player loses and player signings that is likely one of the reasons we are playing this way and are in last place. We need to start building back pieces one by one. Thankfully, a couple of prospects are on board to fill some gaps in the next 2 years.

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