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Thread: Rangers Must Use the Nuclear Option on Lundqvist

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    Rangers Must Use the Nuclear Option on Lundqvist

    That feeling you get when youíre about to write an article thatís going to turn the New York Rangersí fans against you...



    That writing has been on the wall for the past two seasons. Rangersí captain Ryan McDonagh is simply not going to have a chance to call Henrik Lundqvist over to where Gary Bettman stands smirking to let the latest savior of the Rangersí franchise be the first player since 1994 to skate around the ice with the Stanley Cup hoisted over his head. If Lundqvist remains with the Rangers to finish his elite career, it will likely be having never won the ultimate prize in hockey.

    The 2-6-2 start to the 17/18 season is an exclamation point on that reality. If GM Jeff Gorton is brave and as good at his job as he seems to be, that leaves only two options moving forward. Convince Lundqvist to waive his No Movement Clause (NMC) and find a team willing to take on up to 50% of his remaining contract or to buyout the legendary goaltenderís contract at the conclusion of this season.

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    Bad start, not a bad team.

    And literally, nothing like the Leafs that tanked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Bad start, not a bad team.

    And literally, nothing like the Leafs that tanked.
    No, the Leafs waited years too long before they realized what they needed to do.

    Honest question, Josh. Do you see a path to a Cup in the next 2 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Bad start, not a bad team.

    And literally, nothing like the Leafs that tanked.
    Ehhh. They have one good center and four mediocre lines. One player will likely cross 50 pts. this season. Their D is shotty at best and their goalie is on the decline.

    Hank has covered up a lot of deficiencies in the past. We all knew this. Now that he's not able to do that, the team just isn't that good.

    You're right that this isn't Toronto. Not even close. But I think it's wrong to try to patch holes so the broken down jalopy can limp across the finish line for a 3rd year in a row. There are big issues here. Whether they bounce back and sneak into the playoffs or not, there are BIG issues at hand.
    FIRE VIGNEAULT

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    No, the Leafs waited years too long before they realized what they needed to do.

    Honest question, Josh. Do you see a path to a Cup in the next 2 years?
    Its not impossible.

    I listed things I disliked about he offseason over the summer... most has been the truth through the early parts of the season.

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    Like it or not, they pretty much have to do something to try to win in the next 4 seasons. Smith, Shattenkirk, Staal, Henrik all have 4 years. The current younger core will be about 30 years old, and will no longer be a "hmmm, will he get it together this season?".

    By then, you'll have the younger core ready for prime minutes, Buchnevich 26, Chytil, Andersson, Skjei 27, Deanagelo 26, and Pavelec 35 will be ready.
    Rebuilding on the fly.

    A few moves needed, but moving Henrik isn't the start to a rebuild.
    A buyout will only screw us over - the Girardi by out is a disaster. The cap hits for those are insane. Another buy out doesn't help anything.
    If you are rebuilding, rebuild. Don't come in suggesting a rebuild, then complain about Henriks bad play in one thread, and how terrible AV is in the next... do you want to rebuild, or are you expecting the team to win now? Pick a side.
    And if you are rebuilding, trading Henrik is the solution? As I mentioned, a buyout doesn't help anyone. (Unless you think him off the team miraculously "gives them a cup run in 2 seasons")
    If you are rebuilding, that means McDonagh, Zuccarello, Kreider, Miller, Hayes are all gone by seasons end. If you want assets, you need to get good ones. "oh, lets stock up on 2nd and 3rd round picks" - give me a break. Thats not solving any issues.

    The article doesn't even say why they should, or why they would trade him.

    And thinking that you are going to end up with some generational talent like McDavid or Crosby is ... I can't find words to describe it...
    Last edited by josh; 10-26-2017 at 03:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Its not impossible.

    I listed things I disliked about he offseason over the summer... most has been the truth through the early parts of the season.
    How much of a plan is "it's not impossible" though?

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    Better than whining about a bad start and suggesting to trade Lundqvist for no reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Like it or not, they pretty much have to do something to try to win in the next 4 seasons. Smith, Shattenkirk, Staal, Henrik all have 4 years. The current younger core will be about 30 years old, and will no longer be a "hmmm, will he get it together this season?".

    By then, you'll have the younger core ready for prime minutes, Buchnevich 26, Chytil, Andersson, Skjei 27, Deanagelo 26, and Pavelec 35 will be ready.
    Rebuilding on the fly.

    A few moves needed, but moving Henrik isn't the start to a rebuild.
    A buyout will only screw us over - the Girardi by out is a disaster. The cap hits for those are insane. Another buy out doesn't help anything.
    If you are rebuilding, rebuild. Don't come in suggesting a rebuild, then complain about Henriks bad play in one thread, and how terrible AV is in the next... do you want to rebuild, or are you expecting the team to win now? Pick a side.
    And if you are rebuilding, trading Henrik is the solution? As I mentioned, a buyout doesn't help anyone. (Unless you think him off the team miraculously "gives them a cup run in 2 seasons")
    If you are rebuilding, that means McDonagh, Zuccarello, Kreider, Miller, Hayes are all gone by seasons end. If you want assets, you need to get good ones. "oh, lets stock up on 2nd and 3rd round picks" - give me a break. Thats not solving any issues.
    Shattenkirk is the only issue in my proposal. Smith and Staal are inconsequential to a rebuild. They're the type of vets you'd want around a young core rebuilding anyway. Hank would be gone.

    If you are doing a full rebuild, you don't care about dead cap space for the next 3 years. We won't be competitive, we won't be signing high priced UFAs. We'll have plenty of space to re-sign some of the younger players we have now up for new deals (Miller, Hayes, Vesey, Skjei, Buch). We can even go longer term with lower cap hits on some of them because it won't hurt us short term and they'd be valuable deals when we're competitive again in 3-4 years. At that point, the dead cap space from Hank and Girardi will be minimal. In 21/22 (in the fourth year of the rebuild) Hank and G combined would be $3M in dead space. With the cap rising each season, that'll be a small percentage of the overall cap.

    There is also the option of trading Hank while retaining 50% of his salary. Four years out, that's a tough one as we'd have $4.25M for Hank and another $1M for Girardi, but that's the final year of Hank's contract.

    Hank's decline and poor coaching of AV are the reasons to rebuild. Those things aren't going to change. And as I said, I move McDonagh and Zuc as well. Miller and Hayes will be in their late 20's by the time the team is competitive again. They'll be our veterans. As to the return, if you trade Hank, Nash, Grabner, McDonagh and Zuc, you're probably looking at about 4 1st round picks and a few 2nd round picks or the equivalent in prospects. That's a haul to go along with a couple of lottery picks for being terrible for a couple of years.

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    So leave Henrik and AV... I don't understand that mentality.
    If they are so bad, and you want to rebuild... why are 'you' complaining??
    And cap space doesn't matter for a rebuild, so who cares?

    At this point, do you really think you are getting a lot for Henrik?

    You think Dallas wants to give up young prospects to be handcuffed to 2 underperforming, overpaid goaltenders, again?

    Besides, do you think Winnipeg, Dallas, Philly and Toronto saw a "path to the cup 2" seasons ago? All those teams were worse than the Rangers last season. And, now, the best of the group is only 4 points ahead of an underperforming Rangers squad. They are not legit contenders, and wouldn't be giving up assets for a shaky Henrik.


    Side note - we don't want Hayes and Miller being the vet leadership to young guys. Not the guys we need kids learning from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Better than whining about a bad start and suggesting to trade Lundqvist for no reason.
    No one's whining. We're evaluating the team and trying to find a path forward. There's plenty of reason to trade Lundqvist. It starts and ends with the fact that one team has won a cup in the last decade without a full tank or at least benefiting from a top 5 pick plus other high draft picks. That team was the 2008 Detroit Red Wings. The last cup winner not to bottom out first. 10 years ago. And the teams at the top of contention now, Edmonton, Toronto, Washington, Pittsburgh. Tankers.

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    I don't see us becoming the next Vancouver, which seems to be the fear of some fans. I think we will be more competitive during the next 4 seasons than they have since failing to win the cup, maybe a few bubble seasons, maybe a playoff miss. But we already have more assets than them, both playing and coming up through the system.
    And I don't think the Rangers will go full retard, I mean, rebuild. Its not a NY thing. And I think it would require way too many moves that might upset the casuals that can't see the long-term path for the Rangers management to actually explore that option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    So leave Henrik and AV... I don't understand that mentality.
    If they are so bad, and you want to rebuild... why are 'you' complaining??
    And cap space doesn't matter for a rebuild, so who cares?

    At this point, do you really think you are getting a lot for Henrik?

    You think Dallas wants to give up young prospects to be handcuffed to 2 underperforming, overpaid goaltenders, again?

    Besides, do you think Winnipeg, Dallas, Philly and Toronto saw a "path to the cup 2" seasons ago? All those teams were worse than the Rangers last season. And, now, the best of the group is only 4 points ahead of an underperforming Rangers squad. They are not legit contenders, and wouldn't be giving up assets for a shaky Henrik.


    Side note - we don't want Hayes and Miller being the vet leadership to young guys. Not the guys we need kids learning from.
    As long as Hank is here, Gorton is going to be pressing to win. And this franchise will continue to flounder if we have a few 8th/9th/10th place finishes to end Hanks' career. He's good enough to keep the team from being terrible. With a better team in front of him, he can be an asset. We're just not that team.

    Rangers - 6 points (10gp)
    Winnipeg - 8 points (7gp)
    Dallas - 10 points (9gp)
    Philly - 10 points (9gp)
    Toronto - 14 points (9 gp)

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    I don't see us becoming the next Vancouver, which seems to be the fear of some fans. I think we will be more competitive during the next 4 seasons than they have since failing to win the cup, maybe a few bubble seasons, maybe a playoff miss. But we already have more assets than them, both playing and coming up through the system.
    And I don't think the Rangers will go full retard, I mean, rebuild. Its not a NY thing. And I think it would require way too many moves that might upset the casuals that can't see the long-term path for the Rangers management to actually explore that option.
    And that might be where we ultimately disagree. I think we're on a direct path to being the next Vancouver. In an attempt to win now, we'll keep trying to pay UFAs to come in, while our youth gets benched or demoted because we can't live through their mistakes while remaining competitive. You're a fan of DeAngelo (I am too). Do you think if we didn't have unrealistic Cup asperations this seasons, he might have gotten a better shot at working through early season mistakes to get more comfortable and become a better asset? I do. What about Buchenvich, who again is getting minutes on the fourth line? How about Chytil, who earned a spot through camp, but basically was done in by first game jitters and never got a fair shake to see if he could cut it?

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    There is too much talent on this team to go "nuclear" this early in the season.

    The problem under AV has been consistency. Game-to-game, week-to-week, series-to-series consistency have all been an issue. With teams like the Leafs before Matthews, Pitt before Crosby, etc., the problem is talent. That's not the Rangers' problem. I don't know what is, really, but this team does not get the most out of its players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    And that might be where we ultimately disagree. I think we're on a direct path to being the next Vancouver. In an attempt to win now, we'll keep trying to pay UFAs to come in, while our youth gets benched or demoted because we can't live through their mistakes while remaining competitive. You're a fan of DeAngelo (I am too). Do you think if we didn't have unrealistic Cup asperations this seasons, he might have gotten a better shot at working through early season mistakes to get more comfortable and become a better asset? I do. What about Buchenvich, who again is getting minutes on the fourth line? How about Chytil, who earned a spot through camp, but basically was done in by first game jitters and never got a fair shake to see if he could cut it?
    Tony - I just don't think he's in a position to be successful, right now, with this team. The players around him aren't helping his game evolve, and, probably harming his long-term success and development if given the same role, similar to when Del Zotto fell apart when the corps around him wasn't strong enough to compensate for his weaknesses. I've already mentioned the negative effect on the team with McDonagh and Skjei struggling at their jobs. I think we were all expecting those guys to continue to be reliable defenders in their own zone, this season, (especially with Girardi gone!!! - wasn't my belief, but whatever) and that hasn't been the case. So no, I don't want him forced into an NHL to "develop" with this current play/squad. I don't think its beneficial for him

    Buch - I'm not really sure the message that he's getting. I do have an issue with how he is being used, probably my biggest gripe with AV. But I'm also not a "OMG 4th LINE??? WTF????" twitter over-reacter, either. I'd rather see him get top line minutes, or, as with Tony D, get a spot in the lineup where he can be successful. And then, take a game off every so often to watch and absorb.

    Chytil - as I've said before, the kid is exhausted. He needs some R&R. Whens the last time he stopped playing for a bit, when he was 16? Plus the mental side of preparing for the draft, then camp, and moving, etc etc. Thats a lot. He really surprised me with his play, and I want to see him here soon, but I think he needs to rest the body and mind a bit. Getting sent down is a much needed breather for him, and I don't think too much into it.

    Again, I think they will all be here, as regulars, soon enough. Currently, none is doing enough to warrant being here/getting top minutes. And, unfortunately, they are all victims of being unpolished players surrounded by underperformers, that can't compensate and cover up their mistakes.
    I also think they would all benefit for more leadership inside the lockerroom. It would be nice if we have a vet, with some good experience, inside the lockerroom, setting a good example, on and off the ice, and giving them some solid advice here and there. They need someone to look up to, regardless of there they play. We don't have that guy, here. Shit, look what Jagr did with that group of AHLers when he was here. And then the addition of Shanahan. It was a tremendous asset to have for guys like Dubinsky, Callahan, Staal, Girardi, Lundqvist

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Tony - I just don't think he's in a position to be successful, right now, with this team. The players around him aren't helping his game evolve, and, probably harming his long-term success and development if given the same role, similar to when Del Zotto fell apart when the corps around him wasn't strong enough to compensate for his weaknesses. I've already mentioned the negative effect on the team with McDonagh and Skjei struggling at their jobs. I think we were all expecting those guys to continue to be reliable defenders in their own zone, this season, (especially with Girardi gone!!! - wasn't my belief, but whatever) and that hasn't been the case. So no, I don't want him forced into an NHL to "develop" with this current play/squad. I don't think its beneficial for him

    Buch - I'm not really sure the message that he's getting. I do have an issue with how he is being used, probably my biggest gripe with AV. But I'm also not a "OMG 4th LINE??? WTF????" twitter over-reacter, either. I'd rather see him get top line minutes, or, as with Tony D, get a spot in the lineup where he can be successful. And then, take a game off every so often to watch and absorb.

    Chytil - as I've said before, the kid is exhausted. He needs some R&R. Whens the last time he stopped playing for a bit, when he was 16? Plus the mental side of preparing for the draft, then camp, and moving, etc etc. Thats a lot. He really surprised me with his play, and I want to see him here soon, but I think he needs to rest the body and mind a bit. Getting sent down is a much needed breather for him, and I don't think too much into it.

    Again, I think they will all be here, as regulars, soon enough. Currently, none is doing enough to warrant being here/getting top minutes. And, unfortunately, they are all victims of being unpolished players surrounded by underperformers, that can't compensate and cover up their mistakes.
    I also think they would all benefit for more leadership inside the lockerroom. It would be nice if we have a vet, with some good experience, inside the lockerroom, setting a good example, on and off the ice, and giving them some solid advice here and there. They need someone to look up to, regardless of there they play. We don't have that guy, here. Shit, look what Jagr did with that group of AHLers when he was here. And then the addition of Shanahan. It was a tremendous asset to have for guys like Dubinsky, Callahan, Staal, Girardi, Lundqvist
    I don't have much issue with any of this. I just don't see a good short or medium term solution that's going to fix things.

    For trades, you've got a couple of disgruntled centers in Colorardo and Montreal, but neither have been part of a winning club. There just doesn't seem to be much available there.

    You look at free agency next year, there's one superstar in his prime if he makes it. Whether they should go all in on him...I'm not sure. Beyond that, you can probably pay top dollar for someone similar to Zibanjad in Bozak, Turris or Backlund. None have experience winning, although they'd help the center depth issue if you consider Zib/Bozak/Hayes as a sort of platoon that could work.

    The defense is a mess. And it's not all on the defenders, the team is scrambly in their own zone. That should be coachable, but we'll probably need to add a young dender from the system soon to help with cap implications down the road.

    Just not a lot telling me there are solutions that can really turn this season or next around. And if you're looking 2-3 seasons out for a Chytil or Andersson along with shrewd UFA signings to work out, then you might as well go 3-4 and get the benefit of a true rebuild with the significant value top level drafted talent can give you.

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    To suggest that there would be a bidding war is laughable and classic fan with a temporary loss of reality. Dallas just signed bishop do no thanks. Talbot has been the better goalie the past couple of years, a Vezina candidate last year. Not to mention they are not trading pulivarji. Rangers aren't moving him to philly ever. The bottom line is that the rangers are stuck with him and he's stuck with the rangers. His contract guarantees that and the cap clinches it.

    I'm all for a rebuild and hank can tend goal all he wants as the team does so. Signing shatty and smith were idiotic moves reaking of a gm having zero plan. You can trade everyone of those guys and I'm fine with it. Rebuild now. Plugging holes isn't getting us anywhere it just prolongs the drought. It's how organizations go 54 years without winning

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    No, the Leafs waited years too long before they realized what they needed to do.

    Honest question, Josh. Do you see a path to a Cup in the next 2 years?
    I know the common thinking is the Leafs just tanked for Mathews but didn't they already have around five top 8 draft picks from 2008-2015 even before Mathews in 2016?

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    Usually, the same people that want to tank, also complain about the Rangers draft history.

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