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Thread: Shutdown Center The Root Cause of Many Problems for Rangers

  1. #21
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    Shutdown Center The Root Cause of Many Problems for Rangers

    Not saying it is or isn't an AV addidition but a move for a DeAngelo type of player shows what type of direction the game as a whole is going.
    Last edited by Rangers4Life; 10-12-2017 at 03:52 PM.

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    Biggest problem is lack for 100% effort for all 60 minutes.

    (Don't let Pete see this)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangers4Life View Post
    Not saying it is or isn't an AV addidition but a move for a DeAngelo type of player shows what type of direction the game as a whole is going.
    Very much so. It's transitioned away from the "defense wins championships" mentality.

    We need offense to keep up with the rest of the division, not more guys that can't score.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    If you're going to not worry about handedness, then why not just go:

    McDonagh - Skjei
    Smith - Shattenkirk
    Staal - Holden/Kampfer/DeAngelo

    Or better yet, wait longer than 4 periods at the start of the season to give up on McDonagh/Shattenkirk.

    The forwards are a shit show. There's zero reason to have Carey and Cracknell in the lineup.
    At a loss about McD/Shatt. That one thing he gives up on 4 periods in. Also Nieves and Lettieri had a solid camps. Instead you play Carey, who did nothing and waiver guy Cracknell. How do you expect the good forward on the 4th line to do anything. I understand he's waiting for Jesper but those guys should not be getting minutes at the expense of young guys who have offensive talent. DOn't get it. What message are you sending to your young players?

    One more thing; spare me missing Stepan. He was terrible in so many ways.

    AV's inner Roger Nielson is showing and it ain't pretty. Once again he obsesses over perceived defensive deficiencies of younger players while discounting their potential offensive contributions. This division with CBJ and NJD picking up the offense is not going to be easy. 4 games, small sample, early season and all, but this offense except on the PP looks like nobody has any urgency.
    Last edited by Bugg; 10-12-2017 at 04:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    I think it's too early to say that they are weak down the middle. For all we know, JT will be just as productive as Stepan and Hayes can slide back into that 3C role he owned last year.

    The problem is that AV hasn't figured out deployment yet, and that's making everything more difficult.
    JT's looked like he totally flubbed his assignment on the 1st goal against St. Louis. I think he is much more productive as a wing.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    JT's looked like he totally flubbed his assignment on the 1st goal against St. Louis. I think he is much more productive as a wing.
    He's a bit of an enigma. There are times where his two way game is pretty damn good, and then really not so much. He is doing a pretty good job at center though. I honestly think this team's biggest problem at the moment is "trying to do too much." Even in moving the puck they make 3-4 passes too many.

    But anyways, so I don't get off topic, aren't two way centers very difficult to find? I mean out of the 4 Dave mentioned, I think only Turris really has a two way game. Although I admit, I know nothing of Shipachyov.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Falco View Post
    He's a bit of an enigma. There are times where his two way game is pretty damn good, and then really not so much. He is doing a pretty good job at center though. I honestly think this team's biggest problem at the moment is "trying to do too much." Even in moving the puck they make 3-4 passes too many.

    But anyways, so I don't get off topic, aren't two way centers very difficult to find? I mean out of the 4 Dave mentioned, I think only Turris really has a two way game. Although I admit, I know nothing of Shipachyov.
    I feel that overall J.T. doesn't have the natural defensive instincts to be a 2-way centerman. And that's fine if it means he can concentrate more on the offensive side if he's playing wing. Far less defensive responsibility, especially in AV's system, would hopefully lead to more offense. Let's face it, he has 3 shots on goal in 4 games. That's not going to cut it. Keep him on wing.

    As far as those others that were mentioned...I agree, Turris is the best 2-way guy of the bunch but not really known for his defensive prowess either. Galchenyuk, to use your word, is a major enigma. I don't get that guy at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    JT's looked like he totally flubbed his assignment on the 1st goal against St. Louis. I think he is much more productive as a wing.
    Hard to say. He looked like he kind of got lost, but I kind of doubt he was responsible for the defenseman - but even if he was, it's hard to blame him. Recovering after such an egregious turnover is almost impossible.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Falco View Post
    I honestly think this team's biggest problem at the moment is "trying to do too much." Even in moving the puck they make 3-4 passes too many.
    This is often true for this group. I like the term "gripping it" but, yea, there's a bad habit of trying to make the great play rather than the right one.

    The more I watch, the more I think that this is partly on AV. His aversion to just chipping the puck out of the zone leads to that sort of attitude.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    If DeAngelo and Kampfer for now are the scatches, he has Shattenkirk as the lone right handed shot in the top 6. Yes, Holden and Smith have played the right side, but...
    Great posts on this thread AJ, I'll have more of a response on the forwards and C situation, but one important point on the issue you mentioned above.

    Both Holden and Smith may have played the right side, but only Smith has shown he is capable of playing that position at a level that a contending teams needs. The right might be Smith's better side, he's played there much of his career. Holden is an inferior player on the right. It showed last year when he played both sides. Seemed AV realized this, given his assignment in preseason. Yet, tonight he gets top pairing on the right.

    If handedness is now suddenly meaningless to AV, he might as well give a McD/Skjei pairing a whirl. They looked great in the brief moments that they've played together. I understand if they don't want to mess with Skjei ascension as he is starting to dominate. So if that is the reason, at least it is a good reason.

    A bad reason would be that AV thinks he already increased his responsibilities from 3rd pair to 2nd. Therefore, still stuck in his preconceived preseason notion that Brady is set behind McD as a 1-2 punch. However, if AV is still seeking a partner for McD and doesn't think it is Shatty, then this would be a bias and poor reason to not try Skjei. If this gives us a great top pair and an effective McD, that should be the most important priority on D.

  11. #31
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    It's a witches' brew right now, so I am going to opt for patience and letting things play themselves out a bit rather than get my mind twisted in a pretzel

    What I see is a few gestalt intangibles, and then the player personnel issues being addressed, and I can't say
    the passage of time and some settling in, 100% effort, some line stability, getting Jesper Fast back, wouldn't make the player/personnel issues less aggravating

    We played a Colorado team with Varlamov on fire
    We played A St. L. team with Hutton on fire
    Those two things make a small sample size of games look much worse

    We've got guys coming out on the ice discombobulated, defensively disorganized, unprepared, not ready, not sharp — that's an issue

    Some are still making one pass too many, or shooting it into the goalie's torso, not getting the puck up over the pads, etc.

    We've got a guy who should be a defensive lock on D — Smith — as a healthy scratch — a message being sent. It's a situation that should resolve itself when he gets his shit together. if he doesn't, then we will have a real problem in the important part of the season playoffs.

    We've got guys who should be lighting the lamp in droves but only one Dude-zibad scoring — that ought to resolve itself, if things stabilize a bit

    a high paid forward doesn't live up to his paycheck and help better shoulder his scoring load like he was supposed to.

    It's an experimental, sometimes difficult part of the season. The fast starts in previous years only got hopes up that we were an offensive juggernaut, but which proved erratic in the harsh crucible of the playoffs.

    Reality is there are a lot of good teams out there, and some are not as rejiggered/transformational as ours is. It's just the hand AV has got to deal with right now, and not making excuses for him, but it's a time of year when there's more leeway.

    More pucks will go in in time. Players will settle more to their regular performance zones and we'll get a better idea.

    I just can't get myself crazed about making a move for another Stepan type when the path in a new direction has been ordained in the trade, and the erstwhile 1st round draft pick 2-way center had an unexpectedly underwhelming camp. Oh well — we knew that was a possibility.

    Just gotta enjoy what I can — and there's some fun stuff happening, some nights with lots of chances,
    … and bite my knuckles like the rest of you when shit don't go as hoped for.
    If n ya gots jowls, they might as well be furry ones.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    I'd imagine this changes when Fast gets back. I'd also have to wonder if they're waiting for Hartford to get a few more games in so they can see what other center options they might have. Whether that's Chytil getting the nerves out and getting into a groove or one of the other centers showing something (Nieves, Lettieri, Fontaine). Then of course there's the trade route (Shipachyov, Duchene, Galchenyuk, Turris, etc).
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    The forwards are a shit show. There's zero reason to have Carey and Cracknell in the lineup.
    And your not the only one thinking this. Slobberknocker said on the other thread about the shit 4th line and Dunny also pointed out the lottery lineup tonight with Hayes, Desharnais, Carey as our C's behind Zib.

    We don't need 10-20 games to figure out our depth at C is weak and that the 4th line sucks. However, you may be right that the Ranger's want a little time to see what Lettieri and Chytil (maybe even LaFontaine or another forward) do for 10-20 games at Hartford. The plan might be that someone impresses for a sustained period and gets called-up. Please do eliminate Nieves from that group, he almost certainly needs a full year at Hartford before his game is ready. He would need to really tear it up to be considered, after last year, One OK preseason game doesn't cut it. He was less than OK in others. Unlike Ryan Gropp, who also needs a year in Hartford as part of his logical development, Nieves needs to prove that he can get back on an upward trend and even be an NHL player.

    A trade is another option, but again we can expect the first 10-20 games as an internal evaluation period for the Rangers and the rest of the league. Though injuries could motivate a trade somewhere.

    So what are we looking at? Best guess is Rangers are watching Chytil and Lettieri to see if one takes off. Maybe someone else. Tambellini had hot start, but it would have to be sustained before he gets the call.

    Mgmt/coaching is probably watching how Desharnais does. He is not strong defensively, but he plays with speed and can explode from behind the net with the puck. If plays stop dying on his stick -- he really needs to show he can help finish plays -- then maybe he can find a fit here. I'm wondering if he can be that player again, but it is too soon to tell.

    My opinion is that from a season long perspective, the Rangers may still need to add a C by way of trade. As rookies, no one called up from Hartford should be relied on to play a prominent role in winning a Cup. We could really use someone who can challenge Hayes as the 2C, but those guys are going to cost another key piece, if they are even available. More realistically, we are still going to need a versatile guy who can slot up and down. But even those C's are hard to find.

    Let's look at the guys you mentioned:
    Duchene - 8 teams have bid way more than we want to give. Sakic wants a Dman and the only NTC's we have that he values is McD and Skjei. NOT HAPPENING.
    Turris - Good 28 y/o pending FA rental who could easily fit here as a 3/2 C. Ottawa will want a key piece, unless they are out of it. Then he will command a first rounder, which I doubt Gorton will want to relinquish.
    Thornton - if dude isn't even interested, why even have this conversation? Sure, I'll trade Staal for him. Otherwise, let's move on.
    Galchenyuk - great appearance wed with Montreal beat writer on XM Hockey. He really brought it. Said Galey got hurt last year and implied that he either had a partying or pain killer issue, while not playing. Also talked about how he just gives up after a play fails and does not even try to fix a mistake or recover on D. That it is an ongoing problem and that other GMs know about it. That they've tried to trade him, lowering their ask and still no takers.
    Ship - why would Vegas trade the one center they got from expansion that is actually part of their long term future? It'd be almost like them trading Theodore. Anyway, he is not ready to help a playoff team contend this year, anyway.
    RNH - really think he'd be the best call out of any above, but for now Edm has a very big role planned for him this year. GM likes him, he will cost more than Turris and I don't think he is available.

    Who is left at C?
    Cody Eakin might be and he can skate and possibly fit a 3/4 role.
    Better would be Vegas's other C, who probably would cost the same.

    Some time in November the team comes to their senses and ices a Grabner/Lindberg/Fast line.

  13. #33
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    Id like to see a 4th of Leteiri DD Fast

    Guys cause havoc in the offensive zone and create scoring chances.

    To compete in the East, we need to double down on depth. We don't have the top end strength of teams like Pitt, Washington, CLB, Boston, TB, Toronto

    1 shutdown center... ok, well, you still have another line of all stars to deal with... and thats if your Dominic Moore can stop Crosby (lmao...)

    No, that shouldn't be the mindset of the goal. We need 4 scoring lines, 4 effective lines that can be put on the ice, pin the opponents deep and keep them on their heels. Our defense was retooled to allow that to happen. Changing course would be an epic mistake and a step backwards. Don't find the current trend of offense in the NHL... we are almost there. We just need tweaks and guys showing up every shift. Fast, Leteiri and DD can do that. Or at least, lets see if they can.

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    I mean, let's be honest. The roster isn't that strong. Zuccarello is basically the only guaranteed 50pt player on the roster. Think about that. The best teams have guys pushing 80+ points. We have one surefire guy who will break 50.

    Lots of question marks around guys like Kreider and Miller and Buch and Zib (the latter two have been good so far, the other two have been invisible). You have Shatty off the first pair after one game, Staal off the first pair after one game, and now Holden is your first pair d-man...

    DeAngelo was brought in to provide more offense from the back end. After 3 games he's benched.

    There is room for guys like Krieder and Miller and Hayes to step up and make noise, but even if they do, they're not top-end talent. They're not skilled players.

    The mold of successful teams is depth down the middle. Not just depth but STAR PLAYERS. Brain dead Kevin Hayes is this team's second line center. He is not the kind of player you want on your second line if you want to be a successful team.

    Obviously, the further you get down the roster, the thinner it gets. Paul Carrey (who?) is the 4th line center. Carkner (who?) is his winger. Instead of going young and getting some life in the roster, they went with scrubs. Guys who's careers won't last beyond this season. The whole thing is a recipe for disaster.
    Last edited by ThirtyONE; 10-13-2017 at 12:59 PM.
    FIRE VIGNEAULT

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    We can't match that depth, but we are deep on the wings.

    We probably won't have any high scorers, no, but the Rangers were 4th in goals for last season. We lost Stepan, but gained defenders that should help create more offense. I don't think its unrealistic to think they can get to 4th for GF again this season. We need all our players, including depth players, to perform above and beyond.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    And your not the only one thinking this. Slobberknocker said on the other thread about the shit 4th line and Dunny also pointed out the lottery lineup tonight with Hayes, Desharnais, Carey as our C's behind Zib.

    We don't need 10-20 games to figure out our depth at C is weak and that the 4th line sucks. However, you may be right that the Ranger's want a little time to see what Lettieri and Chytil (maybe even LaFontaine or another forward) do for 10-20 games at Hartford. The plan might be that someone impresses for a sustained period and gets called-up. Please do eliminate Nieves from that group, he almost certainly needs a full year at Hartford before his game is ready. He would need to really tear it up to be considered, after last year, One OK preseason game doesn't cut it. He was less than OK in others. Unlike Ryan Gropp, who also needs a year in Hartford as part of his logical development, Nieves needs to prove that he can get back on an upward trend and even be an NHL player.

    A trade is another option, but again we can expect the first 10-20 games as an internal evaluation period for the Rangers and the rest of the league. Though injuries could motivate a trade somewhere.

    So what are we looking at? Best guess is Rangers are watching Chytil and Lettieri to see if one takes off. Maybe someone else. Tambellini had hot start, but it would have to be sustained before he gets the call.

    Mgmt/coaching is probably watching how Desharnais does. He is not strong defensively, but he plays with speed and can explode from behind the net with the puck. If plays stop dying on his stick -- he really needs to show he can help finish plays -- then maybe he can find a fit here. I'm wondering if he can be that player again, but it is too soon to tell.

    My opinion is that from a season long perspective, the Rangers may still need to add a C by way of trade. As rookies, no one called up from Hartford should be relied on to play a prominent role in winning a Cup. We could really use someone who can challenge Hayes as the 2C, but those guys are going to cost another key piece, if they are even available. More realistically, we are still going to need a versatile guy who can slot up and down. But even those C's are hard to find.

    Let's look at the guys you mentioned:
    Duchene - 8 teams have bid way more than we want to give. Sakic wants a Dman and the only NTC's we have that he values is McD and Skjei. NOT HAPPENING.
    Turris - Good 28 y/o pending FA rental who could easily fit here as a 3/2 C. Ottawa will want a key piece, unless they are out of it. Then he will command a first rounder, which I doubt Gorton will want to relinquish.
    Thornton - if dude isn't even interested, why even have this conversation? Sure, I'll trade Staal for him. Otherwise, let's move on.
    Galchenyuk - great appearance wed with Montreal beat writer on XM Hockey. He really brought it. Said Galey got hurt last year and implied that he either had a partying or pain killer issue, while not playing. Also talked about how he just gives up after a play fails and does not even try to fix a mistake or recover on D. That it is an ongoing problem and that other GMs know about it. That they've tried to trade him, lowering their ask and still no takers.
    Ship - why would Vegas trade the one center they got from expansion that is actually part of their long term future? It'd be almost like them trading Theodore. Anyway, he is not ready to help a playoff team contend this year, anyway.
    RNH - really think he'd be the best call out of any above, but for now Edm has a very big role planned for him this year. GM likes him, he will cost more than Turris and I don't think he is available.

    Who is left at C?
    Cody Eakin might be and he can skate and possibly fit a 3/4 role.
    Better would be Vegas's other C, who probably would cost the same.

    Some time in November the team comes to their senses and ices a Grabner/Lindberg/Fast line.
    RNH kinda jumps out in this list. No idea how the salary works($6 million), but if they would take a #1 and other stuff for RNH, that might make some sense. EDM is gonna be looking to cut somewhere to pay McDavid. He's only 24, averaging about 18 goals/50 points per 82 games. A smaller guy though; barely 6 foot, 191 lbs. But those things might make EDM more inclined to dump him reasonably. Also McDavid is getting the big time minutes, may be with a change of scenery he gets more productive with more opportunity.

  17. #37
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    Could Nash & DeAngelo net the Rangers the center they so desperately need?
    If they aren't re-signing Nash and not going to play DeAngelo why not trade them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    No, that shouldn't be the mindset of the goal. We need 4 scoring lines, 4 effective lines that can be put on the ice, pin the opponents deep and keep them on their heels. Our defense was retooled to allow that to happen. Changing course would be an epic mistake and a step backwards. Don't find the current trend of offense in the NHL... we are almost there. We just need tweaks and guys showing up every shift. Fast, Leteiri and DD can do that. Or at least, lets see if they can.
    Word. The idea that we need a matchup line is wrong for this team.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    I mean, let's be honest. The roster isn't that strong. Zuccarello is basically the only guaranteed 50pt player on the roster. Think about that. The best teams have guys pushing 80+ points. We have one surefire guy who will break 50.
    Nashville didn't have anyone over 61 points and just three over 50 last year. The Rangers had 4 guys with more than 50 points. Only two players who scored more than 70 points last year made it to the Final - Crosby and Malkin.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bugg View Post
    RNH kinda jumps out in this list. No idea how the salary works($6 million), but if they would take a #1 and other stuff for RNH, that might make some sense. EDM is gonna be looking to cut somewhere to pay McDavid. He's only 24, averaging about 18 goals/50 points per 82 games. A smaller guy though; barely 6 foot, 191 lbs. But those things might make EDM more inclined to dump him reasonably. Also McDavid is getting the big time minutes, may be with a change of scenery he gets more productive with more opportunity.
    You hate Stepan, but you'd trade a #1 plus for RNH? What?

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    Breaking up passes and clogging the D-zone nicely in the second. But, in the third.. HOW BOUT SOMEBODY HITTING PANARIN GOING UP THE FUCKING MIDDLE? TOO MUCH TOO ASK?

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