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Thread: Preseason Observations/Thoughts

  1. #21
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    Great posts Giacomin and all. I am very wary of putting the kids Chytil and Andersson in at such a young age, want them to get a true year of seasoning--but my selfish side wants to see them now. 9 games then let's re-evaluate.

    Would love to do the Lindbergh deal you suggest. 2nd plus Gropp/Nieves if need be.

    AV/management needs to be bold with the D, we can't let that be the same old same old porous. If Staal is stale, let someone else do the job until Staal hopefully comes around -- wishful thinking, I guess.


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    Hey Blue. Yeah, every time I get caught up in Chytil fever, I remember he is barely 18. Common sense dictates that he shouldn't be rushed, heaping undo NYC pressure on a kid who is still growing, literally. Let's not pretend this is McDavid or Mathews or Eichel here. All are generational and more physically developed. Fourth line brings less pressure, but not the right role and a worse choice.

    I'm not sure the 9 game thing works either. If we think he may not cut it, it is not worth the risk. It would be unfortunate to have to send him elsewhere with less options open in Europe. And tell him, he is leaving. And reset the fans expectations. There goes his nice start with the organization. Even if it doesn't phase him, it should not be assumed that a kid can't be mishandled, just because he is still a kid. Even in football or hoops, kids Chytil's age get at least a year of college or Euroball.

    It would be great to see AV go with youth and speed on the blueline. At least cut bait with Holden and see if we can build Staal's value. Pitt made the switch to a speed game, added speed defenders, along with speedy backchecking forwards (Daly instead of Orpik, Hags, Sheary, Rust, Bonino) and won 2 cups in a row. It feels like we could have the same kind of quick-to-the puck, puck moving defenders if we could shed two anchors. Actually, without the two, I like our revamped D better. Addition by subtraction. Once Fast recovers (and we get Lindberg back we'll have the forechecking/backchecking demons to cause turnovers and dominate possession. Well one can hope.

    BTW, maybe I'm wrong and Staal plays rock steady and doesn't hurt our possession.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 09-27-2017 at 02:08 AM.

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    Let's not forget the Penn's have someone name Crosby and Malkin the rangers don't have top notch talent like those two players

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Good point about Vegas, but Oscar is a former 2nd rounder who has outplayed his draft status and is vying for their 2C spot. He is not one of the guys caught up in the numbers game. A Center, entering his prime, on an easy to digest contract, is worth a 2nd plus.
    I feel like you're really overvaluing Lindberg. He's a good 4c, maybe a 3c, but he has no upside.

    He'll probably put up points on a Vegas team that gives him offensive wingers and PP time because, quite simply, they don't have anybody else. But a second-round pick for a guy who, at best, is your 5th-best center when next season comes is a waste.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lefty9 View Post
    Let's not forget the Penn's have someone name Crosby and Malkin the rangers don't have top notch talent like those two players
    Yes, and let's not forget that we beat them the year before and that they were far out of the playoffs until they changed their coach, style (speed game) and personnel to match. They made dramatic changes and the results changed dramatically. Don't forget Malkin was hurt. He came back and played a few games with the newly acquired Hagelin, then was reinjured. So they turned it around w/o Malkin.

    My point is that they changed their play to our style and beat us (including in the playoffs) at our game because they were able to consistently get to pucks and move pucks faster than our slow-footed defenders who also struggled at quickly advancing the puck, instead turning it over. They matched the players to the style. We could make that dramatic difference in personnel if we don't trot out G, Boyle, Klein, Staal and Holden. A backline of McD, Skjei, Smith, Shattenkirk, DeAngelo, Graves, Pionk and Kampfer can outskate/outplay any D in the East.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 09-27-2017 at 09:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Yes, and let's not forget that we beat them the year before and that they were far out of the playoffs until they changed their coach, style (speed game) and personnel to match. They made dramatic changes and the results changed dramatically. Don't forget Malkin was hurt. He came back and played a few games with the newly acquired Hagelin, then was reinjured. So they turned it around w/o Malkin.

    My point is that they changed their play to our style and beat us (including in the playoffs) at our game because they were able to consistently get to pucks and move pucks faster than our slow-footed defenders who also struggled at quickly advancing the puck, instead turning it over. They matched the players to the style. We could make that dramatic difference in personnel if we don't trot out G, Boyle, Klein, Staal and Holden. A backline of McD, Skjei, Smith, Shattenkirk, DeAngelo, Graves, Pionk and Kampfer can outskate/outplay any D in the East.
    I agree in general, but they didn't play the Rangers style. The Pens, defensively, played with 6 goalies and just tried to clog things up. Where they were effective is in chipping pucks out and then using speed to chase them down OR just giving the puck to Sid/Malkin/Kessel and letting them do the work. The Rangers have been successful when they're in between those two things, which is why they need a glut of puck-moving D men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    I feel like you're really overvaluing Lindberg. He's a good 4c, maybe a 3c, but he has no upside.

    He'll probably put up points on a Vegas team that gives him offensive wingers and PP time because, quite simply, they don't have anybody else. But a second-round pick for a guy who, at best, is your 5th-best center when next season comes is a waste.
    Nah, respectfully some of you are undervaluing 25 y/o healthy 2 way centers with no holes in his game and a serious playoff performer. Did you see Gorton's interview yesterday? He made a point that good C's are the "most coveted" and hardest to acquire asset. He is right. Find me an affordable good C. Even a nice third line C who you could get for a 2nd rounder? I'll save you the research, there are none even available.

    It would be a gift from Vegas to get Lindberg back with a mere 2nd. Lindberg was a successful 2nd round pick still on a nice contract. He's done better than most 2nds. How is he currently not worth more than a 2nd today? We are kidding ourselves if we think we are getting that kind of proven (yet still young) C for just a 2nd.

    Lastly, understand Lindberg fits my narrative of not rushing the two kids. The narrative that doesn't assume the two kids become world beaters at 18 or even 19. Or that no one gets injured. That we need a faceoff guy, who can forecheck and defend top line opponents in the playoffs. OR dominate against the bottom lines. And he's adept at wing. He is the type of C cup teams have on their third and fourth lines. I'd give a 2nd and prospect just to have him for the playoffs, in the next two years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    I agree in general, but they didn't play the Rangers style. The Pens, defensively, played with 6 goalies and just tried to clog things up. Where they were effective is in chipping pucks out and then using speed to chase them down OR just giving the puck to Sid/Malkin/Kessel and letting them do the work. The Rangers have been successful when they're in between those two things, which is why they need a glut of puck-moving D men.
    They were good at not letting teams get set up in their zone, especially during the 2nd half of that year. Then Daly got hurt, just before the playoffs, and they went heavy into 'shot-blocking mode', once teams mustered some pressure. So, you are right there, but then it was the Bonino/Hag and Sheary lines that were helping their defense gain the puck before the opposition could set up. Their transition game was like ours the year before. They used our style of speed and transition and passing to win 2 Cups. They brought in players (Kessel was new too) that excelled in that game.

    Fast, Lindberg and Grabs would fit right in with the Pens. It is no surprise to me that they were our best forwards in the playoffs, last year.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 09-27-2017 at 10:09 AM.

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    Just realized it does not matter anyway. Losing sight that AV preaches the speed and transition game, yet makes personnel and in-game decisions that contradict his own philosophy.

    I have plenty of examples where his tactics are in conflict with his strategy, but I don't want to bore myself or anyone reading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Nah, respectfully some of you are undervaluing 25 y/o healthy 2 way centers with no holes in his game and a serious playoff performer. Did you see Gorton's interview yesterday? He made a point that good C's are the "most coveted" and hardest to acquire asset. He is right. Find me an affordable good C. Even a nice third line C who you could get for a 2nd rounder? I'll save you the research, there are none even available.

    It would be a gift from Vegas to get Lindberg back with a mere 2nd. Lindberg was a successful 2nd round pick still on a nice contract. He's done better than most 2nds. How is he currently not worth more than a 2nd today? We are kidding ourselves if we think we are getting that kind of proven (yet still young) C for just a 2nd.

    Lastly, understand Lindberg fits my narrative of not rushing the two kids. The narrative that doesn't assume the two kids become world beaters at 18 or even 19. Or that no one gets injured. That we need a faceoff guy, who can forecheck and defend top line opponents in the playoffs. OR dominate against the bottom lines. And he's adept at wing. He is the type of C cup teams have on their third and fourth lines. I'd give a 2nd and prospect just to have him for the playoffs, in the next two years.
    What exactly has Lindberg proven to be? He's a 10-goal guy who has never been a strong possession player and doesn't kill penalties. He's a decent faceoff guy.

    defend top line opponents in the playoffs. OR dominate against the bottom lines.
    He has literally never done these things.

    Lindberg didn't do anything in the playoffs. He played less than 10:00 a night and had a two-goal game in which both goals required 0 skill. Cup teams have him on their third and fourth lines when they're top centers are elite players (i.e. the Pens and Kings).

    I like Lindberg too, but he's not an impact player and you should be looking for a lot more value with second-round picks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    What exactly has Lindberg proven to be? He's a 10-goal guy who has never been a strong possession player and doesn't kill penalties. He's a decent faceoff guy.

    defend top line opponents in the playoffs. OR dominate against the bottom lines.
    He has literally never done these things.

    Lindberg didn't do anything in the playoffs. He played less than 10:00 a night and had a two-goal game in which both goals required 0 skill. Cup teams have him on their third and fourth lines when they're top centers are elite players (i.e. the Pens and Kings).

    I like Lindberg too, but he's not an impact player and you should be looking for a lot more value with second-round picks.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    What exactly has Lindberg proven to be? He's a 10-goal guy who has never been a strong possession player and doesn't kill penalties. He's a decent faceoff guy.

    defend top line opponents in the playoffs. OR dominate against the bottom lines.
    He has literally never done these things.

    Lindberg didn't do anything in the playoffs. He played less than 10:00 a night and had a two-goal game in which both goals required 0 skill. Cup teams have him on their third and fourth lines when they're top centers are elite players (i.e. the Pens and Kings).

    I like Lindberg too, but he's not an impact player and you should be looking for a lot more value with second-round picks.
    Future, you are wrong and that's OK. I'd invite you or anybody to rewatch all 12 Ranger playoff games with me. Without this we are never going to agree.

    We'd watch every Oscar shift and you would conclude that he was among our top 3 forwards for 10 of the 12 games. There was a game he and Buch were benched the entire 3rd period. In that game he may have been the best forward for the Rangers. Go figure. It just illustrates the flaws in AV's in-game personnel decisions.

    You wanna talk Corsi? Fenwick? He had the best Corsi and Fenwick for the entire playoffs, on the entire team. He had 3 goals (1GWG) and a key assist (+3) and 17 shots on goal in limited minutes. He is never sheltered. 13 goals his rookie year in limited minutes. He was coming off hip surgery where he missed a month or two and it took him another month or so to really get going. He played like a very high level 3C in the 2nd half. He got stronger at the end of the season and playoffs and made the most of his ice time.

    He could easily kill penalties, you know this. He was very impressive on the winning Swede team this summer, playing on the top 6 and some PP. He wins faceoffs, is physical, hard to move and would be our best forechecking and backchecking center again this year. He was underutilized by AV. It was one of many mistakes AV made that cost us against the Sens and almost cost us against the Cans. Thankfully Julian was embarrassingly worse than AV in his overcoaching.

    Oscar is going into his third full year in the NHL. His second was a comeback from hip surgery where he missed significant time. What more do you want out of a 2nd rounder? By the end of the year and playoffs he was a far better defender than Stepan or any of our other C's.

    I challenge you to name me 3 centers in this year's 2nd round that will be better than Oscar. We'll see how many you get right. I think you need to review 2nd round success rates. Skip the first 4-5 picks this year and you will really struggle. Oscar is not worth one 2nd rounder. He is worth that and a solid prospect like Gropp, a second himself. Basically he is worth two 2nds. I can't convince you or AV to like the player more. Even though you should, IMO.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 09-27-2017 at 03:19 PM.

  13. #33
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    I'm with Giaco on Lindberg, but back to the young ones.

    According to the NYPOST Gorton said
    "“We were fortunate that both have showed well,” on the MSG telecast between periods. “We will sit down in the next few days and figure out what is best for them, what is best for us. We don’t want to put them in situation where they aren’t going to grow and develop their skill level and be fourth-line players. We will talk to everybody over the next few days, our coaching staff, [AHL Wolf Pack GM] Chris Drury and the rest of our staff and make those decisions. Really happy with them and look like they have real bright futures which is good for the Rangers.”
    http://nypost.com/2017/09/27/rangers...heir-top-pick/
    I've almost had enough of being patient, especially like many of the rest of y'alls who ain't getting any younger and are getting offers of AARP membership, but I'm thinking we're going to end up dipping the bucket into the patience barrel one more time on this one. I don't know enough about player development to say whether playing limited 3rd 4th line minutes (if indeed that's what their fate would be?) would hinder these guys, that presumably will be up to the minds who are paid to know and sense this stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Future, you are wrong and that's OK. I'd invite you or anybody to rewatch all 12 Ranger playoff games with me. Without this we are never going to agree.

    We'd watch every Oscar shift and you would conclude that he was among our top 3 forwards for 10 of the 12 games. There was a game he and Buch were benched the entire 3rd period. In that game he may have been the best forward for the Rangers. Go figure. It just illustrates the flaws in AV's in-game personnel decisions.

    You wanna talk Corsi? Fenwick? He had the best Corsi and Fenwick for the entire playoffs, on the entire team. He had 3 goals (1GWG) and a key assist (+3) and 17 shots on goal in limited minutes. He is never sheltered. 13 goals his rookie year in limited minutes. He was coming off hip surgery where he missed a month or two and it took him another month or so to really get going. He played like a very high level 3C in the 2nd half. He got stronger at the end of the season and playoffs and made the most of his ice time.

    He could easily kill penalties, you know this. He wins faceoffs, is physical, and would be our best forechecking and backchecking center again this year. He was underutilized by AV. It was one of many mistakes AV made that cost us against the Sens and almost cost us against the Cans. Thankfully Julian was embarrassingly worse than AV in his overcoaching.

    Oscar is going into his third full year in the NHL. His second was a comeback from hip surgery where he missed significant time. What more do you want out of a 2nd rounder?

    I challenge you to name me 3 centers in this year's 2nd round that will be better than Oscar. We'll see how many you get right. I think you need to review 2nd round success rates. Skip the first 4-5 picks this year and you will really struggle. Oscar is not worth one 2nd rounder. He is worth that and a solid prospect like Gropp, a second himself. Basically he is worth two 2nds. I can't convince you or AV to like the player more. Even though you should, IMO.
    He was good in the playoffs and was still unproductive - that's kind of the point. And, I kind of hate this argument, but two of his goals required 0 skill; one was a 2-0 break and the other was just Anderson having a brain fart. I think there's a lot of little things that you and I probably don't pick up on watching the game on TV if the team's best forward gets benched....

    He is absolutely sheltered, that's a major part of the reason why he had strong playoff possession numbers. He's not out there against top guys. We don't know that he can kill penalties, because he never has. We can assume, but it's not something he's ever done.

    Again, I like Lindberg. I wish they didn't have to give him up. But he is what he is. In terms of getting production out of a second rounder....I'd much rather have a shot of getting Justin Faulk in the second than trading it for a 26-year-old bottom-six center. Success rate isn't really the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Future, you are wrong and that's OK. I'd invite you or anybody to rewatch all 12 Ranger playoff games with me. Without this we are never going to agree.

    We'd watch every Oscar shift and you would conclude that he was among our top 3 forwards for 10 of the 12 games. There was a game he and Buch were benched the entire 3rd period. In that game he may have been the best forward for the Rangers. Go figure. It just illustrates the flaws in AV's in-game personnel decisions.

    You wanna talk Corsi? Fenwick? He had the best Corsi and Fenwick for the entire playoffs, on the entire team. He had 3 goals (1GWG) and a key assist (+3) and 17 shots on goal in limited minutes. He is never sheltered. 13 goals his rookie year in limited minutes. He was coming off hip surgery where he missed a month or two and it took him another month or so to really get going. He played like a very high level 3C in the 2nd half. He got stronger at the end of the season and playoffs and made the most of his ice time.

    He could easily kill penalties, you know this. He was very impressive on the winning Swede team this summer, playing on the top 6 and some PP. He wins faceoffs, is physical, hard to move and would be our best forechecking and backchecking center again this year. He was underutilized by AV. It was one of many mistakes AV made that cost us against the Sens and almost cost us against the Cans. Thankfully Julian was embarrassingly worse than AV in his overcoaching.

    Oscar is going into his third full year in the NHL. His second was a comeback from hip surgery where he missed significant time. What more do you want out of a 2nd rounder? By the end of the year and playoffs he was a far better defender than Stepan or any of our other C's.

    I challenge you to name me 3 centers in this year's 2nd round that will be better than Oscar. We'll see how many you get right. I think you need to review 2nd round success rates. Skip the first 4-5 picks this year and you will really struggle. Oscar is not worth one 2nd rounder. He is worth that and a solid prospect like Gropp, a second himself. Basically he is worth two 2nds. I can't convince you or AV to like the player more. Even though you should, IMO.
    You know who was second in all those advanced stats for the playoffs? Tanner fucking Glass. Lindberg didn't see a single second of PK time in the playoffs. You honestly think the coaches are just stupid or biased and they didn't put this guy that 'easily kills penalties' out there once? If Lindberg was such a superstar he would have played more than 10 minutes per game. And considering he was drafted 7 years ago, its a little premature to start comparing this years draft picks to him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    You know who was second in all those advanced stats for the playoffs? Tanner fucking Glass. Lindberg didn't see a single second of PK time in the playoffs. You honestly think the coaches are just stupid or biased and they didn't put this guy that 'easily kills penalties' out there once? If Lindberg was such a superstar he would have played more than 10 minutes per game. And considering he was drafted 7 years ago, its a little premature to start comparing this years draft picks to him.
    Oh please, so out of context. First Glass played fewer games, played with Lindberg and Fast who were killing it and played maybe the best 2-3 games in his life. Good for him, but not very relevant. I gave the advance stats because Future used that as an indictment of Oscar's play. But the data paints a different picture. BTW, take a look at his #'s and advanced charts from Jan 7th forward. Very positive.

    If you read my posts on this thread you know how I feel about this coach's utilization of players. The coaches don't have to be stupid to have weaknesses and make mistakes. No need to be ridiculous. However, after the finishes the last two years, I am no longer confident the Rangers can win a Cup with AV.

    Lindberg killed penalties in the past, including a little over 20 seconds per, his rookie year. He killed penalties like an ace in Sweeden and in Hartford too. He won the Playoff MVP of the SHL his last year in Sweeden. Point per game and played the PP and PK. He did not get put on PK this year because he was hurt and AV wanted to develop Hayes as defensive player and PKer.

    You think I'm the only one who has this opinion about AV's utilization or of Lindberg's game? Well read this well written article from another Ranger website. Read the comments for other similar opinions.

    In your hurry to skewer me, you also misunderstood the draft comment. My point was that it is difficult to find quality Swiss Army Knife 3Cs in the 2nd round, try it yourself with this draft class and see what you have in a few years. Of course if you go back 6 years, it is easy to see who made it and who did not. I wasn't comparing Lindberg to current 2nd rounders, just suggesting to Future that it is not easy to find good centers in the 2nd. However, it is also a good exercise to go back to older drafts and see all the 2nd rounders misses. That quality C's are few and far between.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Respecttheblue View Post
    I'm with Giaco on Lindberg, but back to the young ones.

    According to the NYPOST Gorton said

    I've almost had enough of being patient, especially like many of the rest of y'alls who ain't getting any younger and are getting offers of AARP membership, but I'm thinking we're going to end up dipping the bucket into the patience barrel one more time on this one. I don't know enough about player development to say whether playing limited 3rd 4th line minutes (if indeed that's what their fate would be?) would hinder these guys, that presumably will be up to the minds who are paid to know and sense this stuff.
    Saw Gorton say this on MSG yesterday. I wonder if they are looking at Europe arrangements and their ability to call back a kid, mid or late season. Maybe they are talking to them about starting in Hartford rather than going back to Europe, where they have spots. I think Gorton would prefer to let the kids be kids and AV would like to keep one or both. We'll see what they decide and hopefully why. Obviously, if they keep either they realize they have a 9 game extended tryout to play with. Unfortunately, that has more to do with a demarcation for contract terms down the road and cap considerations, then to benefit the player's development.

    Hey Blue, just because we are getting arthritis doesn't mean today's 18 y/o are any more ready then yesterdays. Or that we should rush their development because we could not figure out how to keep/replace (Step and Oscar) and that Hank's window is closing. We can always bring the kids up later in the year to give the team a boost, if they are knocking on the door.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 09-27-2017 at 05:44 PM.

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    Any word when cuts may take place and who was going on the team bonding retreat in I believe lake placid

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjweimar View Post
    Any word when cuts may take place and who was going on the team bonding retreat in I believe lake placid
    @NYRangers: OFFICIAL: #NYR have assigned Gabriel Fontaine and Brandon Halverson to @WolfPackAHL.

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    Fontaine is another guy I'm legitimately excited to see again.


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