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Thread: Is Tavares to the Rangers a Possibility?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Parise is the only forward in the league who signed a UFA deal for >$70m. It was 13 years with an AAV of $7.5. He was every bit as good as Tavares at the time and was 28 coming off a 69-point year, JT is about to be 27 coming off a 66-point year. There's no comparables for Tavares as a UFA. I think teams will absolutely go in offering 10 years for $75-80m. The way teams are paying youth right now, I don't think anybody is going to commit to paying him $10m when he's 35.

    Yes it's a possibility. If Skjei is at 4.75 and vesey is at 2.5, that's still basically what I'm talking about. I don't really know what the rest of your numbers are...are you including Nash, Grabner, Desharnais, and Holden?
    Higher cap hits are making up for the otherwise lost years. Tavares' deal would be about half as long as Parise's but that would be made up in a considerably higher cap hit. You think teams are going to really care about having a top tier talent until he's 35? He'd be signing at 27 and starting that season at 28. It's not like he's signing at 30+. Teams are shying away from older, bad players. Tavares hasn't declined and doesn't play a game that will cause his game to deteriorate quickly.

    See my above post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    The Pens just won back-to-back cups doing that.
    No one on that roster remotely resembles Crosby, Kessel or Malkin with the exception of Tavares. None of those bottom six players I have in there are as good and that's while being $2.5M over the cap. It isn't doable. Sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    No one on that roster remotely resembles Crosby, Kessel or Malkin with the exception of Tavares. None of those bottom six players I have in there are as good and that's while being $2.5M over the cap. It isn't doable. Sorry.
    Vesey and Lias on the third line in 19-20 isn't as good as...whoever?

    That's also not accounting for the fact that the Rangers have a much better d corps.

    Here it is for 19-20 w/ JT at 10, Staal at 5.7, Mac at 6, Skjei at 5, DeAngelo at 1.5, and a 4c at 1.5. The reach is on Gropp as a 3rd liner. You're at $82m, but there's easily 5m to shed in there.

    https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair...1000000&term=1

    I'm not sitting here saying that it's a no-brainer it could work. All I'm saying is that crazier things have happened.

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    Kerfoot, Butcher, Toninato Highlight Class of Late Summer UFAs

    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    I have said multiple times to replace Hayes - he's the odd man out with JT. His salary goes directly to Miller, so that is a wash. If we signed JT today, after next year, the only guys you're worried about signing are Vesey and Buch - who should be fairly easy. After next year, you trade Zucc if you worry about losing a young guy. Hayes and Zucc would each bring back an ELC bottom-6 player to fill out the depth.

    I don't know why you'd leave Buch, Vesey and Lias all off of your list, considering that's an entire top-9 line of ELC guys lol. Just for fun, after the 18-19 season from now, when we have to re-sign Mac, let's assume the cap is $77.5m. NYR could:

    Kreider (4.6) - JT (10) - Buch (2.5 bridge)
    Miller (5.5) - Zib (5.4) - Vesey (2.5 bridge)
    Lettieri (925k) - Lias (925k) - Fast (1.9)
    Gropp (800k) - Nieves (925k) - Vet Min (1)

    Mac (6) - Shat (6.7)
    Skjei (5) - Smith (4.4)
    Staal (5.7) - DeAngelo (1.5 bridge)

    Hank (8.5)
    Halverson (1)

    Girardi (3.6)

    This totals $79.775m and includes Staal. You can tinker with the bottom-6 and the numbers themselves a bit, but it's not a major stretch to have this roster. If you don't think it's a good one, that's fine. But assuming anybody in the system develops at all, this is more than feasible.
    Hayes wasn't in my list. I appreciate Tavares likely replaces him in your scenario. Somebody has to go and he would be the obvious candidate. My point is somebody else has go, say Miller or Zuccarello. The math doesn't work and still leave a competitive NHL team.

    Anderson hasn't even played an NHL game yet, and is 18. It's a little premature to call him a top 9 talent yet which is why I ignored him. Vesey and Buch weren't ignored, they just have to fit into the remaining cap space (circa $15M in my example), and that's hard at $2.5M each (leaving you $9M for 8-11 players as you have Tavares at $10M).

    The team you have there sucks. We sign Tavares, but have a backup goalie with zero NHL experience and an average minor league career to date, 3 players with zero NHL (or even more than a handful of AHL games) experience to date and 1 with only a single game under his belt. I get you are just giving examples and they could be replaced by cheap veterans, but why sign Tavares for $10M if the rest of the lineup sucks? Those 3rd and 4th lines would get ruined night in night out. He leaves the Isles to join the equivalent.

    I just disagree. I don't think he fits in terms of cap, and that team would not be a contender. We are better off doing what we are doing, rebuilding/retooling through the draft and prospects whilst letting the existing young talent mature.


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    Last edited by pws85nyr; 08-17-2017 at 05:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    No one on that roster remotely resembles Crosby, Kessel or Malkin with the exception of Tavares. None of those bottom six players I have in there are as good and that's while being $2.5M over the cap. It isn't doable. Sorry.
    Isn't doable when? JT, even at 10, is a wash with Nash, Desharnais and Holden gone. Moving Hayes and Zucc if you has to should give you enough to sign whoever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pws85nyr View Post
    The team you have there sucks. We sign Tavares, but have a backup goalie with zero NHL experience and an average minor league career to date, 3 players with zero NHL (or even more than a handful of AHL games) experience to date and 1 with only a single game under his belt. I get you are just giving examples and they could be replaced by cheap veterans, but why sign Tavares for $10M if the rest of the lineup sucks? Those 3rd and 4th lines would get ruined night in night out. He leaves the Isles to join the equivalent.

    I just disagree. I don't think he fits in terms of cap, and that team would not be a contender. We are better of doing what we are doing, rebuilding/retooling through the draft and prospects whilst letting the existing young talent mature]
    Those players will have a bunch of NHL experience in 19-20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Isn't doable when? JT, even at 10, is a wash with Nash, Desharnais and Holden gone. Moving Hayes and Zucc if you has to should give you enough to sign whoever.
    You saw the screenshot from CapFriendly. That's $2.5M over the cap with Staal bought out and piss poor bottom six and awful backup that isn't realistic. The only way you make Tavares "work" is if you do something like trade Zuccarello or bridje Skjei but I don't see how either really helps the team and those moves also pose long-term issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Vesey and Lias on the third line in 19-20 isn't as good as...whoever?

    That's also not accounting for the fact that the Rangers have a much better d corps.

    Here it is for 19-20 w/ JT at 10, Staal at 5.7, Mac at 6, Skjei at 5, DeAngelo at 1.5, and a 4c at 1.5. The reach is on Gropp as a 3rd liner. You're at $82m, but there's easily 5m to shed in there.

    https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair...1000000&term=1

    I'm not sitting here saying that it's a no-brainer it could work. All I'm saying is that crazier things have happened.
    Link doesn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    You saw the screenshot from CapFriendly. That's $2.5M over the cap with Staal bought out and piss poor bottom six and awful backup that isn't realistic. The only way you make Tavares "work" is if you do something like trade Zuccarello or bridje Skjei but I don't see how either really helps the team and those moves also pose long-term issues.
    Trading Zucc only hurts if Buch sucks, b/c we're going to lose him anyways. Besides, trading Zucc means you can probably get a quality ELC bottom-6 player. Not to mention the return you'd get for Hayes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Those players will have a bunch of NHL experience in 19-20.
    You are relying on a lot for this to work out. Our shirty farm team has to miraculously pull NHL calibre players out of its arse fairly quick. Most of them undrafted FA's or low draft picks.

    Personally I just don't see it as being realistic without causing major problems (Skjei bridge, losing Hayes and Miller/Zuccarello, awful depth etc).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Trading Zucc only hurts if Buch sucks, b/c we're going to lose him anyways. Besides, trading Zucc means you can probably get a quality ELC bottom-6 player. Not to mention the return you'd get for Hayes.
    That is a good point. Tradin Zucc thins you on the wing considerably though. And in this scenario Buch is already in the top 6. You're then bumping up Vesey. Chances are whoever or whatever you get in return for Hayes and/or Zuccarello won't lead to someone stepping into the lineup immediately if you're trading for youth.

    You're also banking too hard on being able to bridge players like DeAngelo for next to nothing and keeping Buch's salary low as well.

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    Kerfoot, Butcher, Toninato Highlight Class of Late Summer UFAs

    But you're saying we lose Hayes and Zuccarello (circa 100 points combined) to sign Tavares (circa 70-80 points) and an ELC (20-30 points). The net result is we aren't really any better. We have an elite player, but a lack of scoring depth leaving you back at square one.

    Square peg round hole and all that. I just don't think the math works personally. We'll agree to disagree.


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    I've moved the Tavares discussion to its own separate thread considering we've had two pages of it.

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    Is Tavares to the Rangers a Possibility?

    Drew has this right on dollars. Drawing comparisons to Crosby and Malkin simply isn't economically honest, or relevant. Tavares will be a 27-year old superstar entering a free agent market in which at least a dozen takes will make a pitch. If not more. My guess is no fewer than half the teams in the NHL will make honest, formal offers.

    Based on comparable deals to Kopitar ($10M), Toews ($10.5M), Stamkos ($8.5M), and Benn ($9.5M), is not inconceivable that Tavares comes out of this at $10M per season, minimum. Remember, too, that Stamkos may appear on the lower end, but he signed in the state of Florida where there is no state income tax. His $8.5M is a mathematical win for the Bolts because of that. Ditto Benn in Dallas. I'd imagine open market bids for them would have been $10M or more based on this and the principle of competitive offers.


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    Finally some life to the board
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    Let's Go Rangers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodka Drunkenski View Post
    Finally some life to the board
    Your fingers broken? Make threads if you want people to be active. LOL.


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    https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/450365

    My numbers work. You get an extra $3.75m of cap space assuming the cap increases 5% which it has every year since the lockout.

    I have $1.1 mil in cap space, still have Zucc, bought out Staal, and the only casualty is Hayes. On top of that if we can trade Staal we could still resign Hayes for around $4.75m.

    The year after this we lose a 32 year old Zuc to resign McD.

    Two years after that, if you need cap space you can look at trading Smith or Kreider.

    You have to keep in mind, the cap goes up every year and players get experience. For example, if Lias' contract slides this year not only will his cap hit be lower, but he will have 3 more years of development under his belt with a cap hit under $900k in the 20-21 season. The year after that Hank and Shatty are gone and you have over $15m to play with.

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    There's no saying how much the cap actually rises. They voted on the escalator this year and it went up less than 5% from $73M to $75M after it almost didn't get raised at all.

    In order to fit Tavares in you're forced to fill in with low-quality depth.

    Even if you look ahead to future moves, McDonagh's salary increases. Zuccarello's departure is likely followed by Buchnevich taking on his salary and so forth. You can talk about removal of players but you get to a point where removal is really only short term. Look at the Zibanejad move. The Rangers trade Brassard at $5M for once season of cap levity with Zibanejad at $2.625M which was followed up by re-signing him for a greater cap hit than Brassard at $5.35M. Very seldom can you shed salary without taking on immediately or quite soon after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/450365

    My numbers work. You get an extra $3.75m of cap space assuming the cap increases 5% which it has every year since the lockout.

    I have $1.1 mil in cap space, still have Zucc, bought out Staal, and the only casualty is Hayes. On top of that if we can trade Staal we could still resign Hayes for around $4.75m.

    The year after this we lose a 32 year old Zuc to resign McD.

    Two years after that, if you need cap space you can look at trading Smith or Kreider.

    You have to keep in mind, the cap goes up every year and players get experience. For example, if Lias' contract slides this year not only will his cap hit be lower, but he will have 3 more years of development under his belt with a cap hit under $900k in the 20-21 season. The year after that Hank and Shatty are gone and you have over $15m to play with.
    Of course it works. You can make anything work. But you have 6 players who currently have never played an NHL game, and 1 that has only made his debut. 4 of them are undrafted FA's that the Rangers are simply taking a punt on. Andersson and Nieves would be the only two IMO that aren't a massive reach to make the roster next year. It works but the lower lines are pretty poor as a result. You are sacrificing balance just to have Tavares. As much as I would love him here, I don't see that team having anywhere near enough forward depth to win a cup.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    Even if you look ahead to future moves, McDonagh's salary increases. Zuccarello's departure is likely followed by Buchnevich taking on his salary and so forth. You can talk about removal of players but you get to a point where removal is really only short term. Look at the Zibanejad move. The Rangers trade Brassard at $5M for once season of cap levity with Zibanejad at $2.625M which was followed up by re-signing him for a greater cap hit than Brassard at $5.35M. Very seldom can you shed salary without taking on immediately or quite soon after.
    The value of the Zib trade, is that Zib is 5 years younger, not the cap hit. and Zib had 3 less points than Brassard in 25 less games.

    Removal of players is the name of the game though. If you don't go after JT, what's your plan? Use Nash's money to resign Vesey, Hayes, Miller, and Skjei. How does the team get better? As players get older, they get raises. You pick who you think fits into the organization the best, and you trade those that don't. But at some point you need an elite guy to build around. All the talk (not saying you specifically) around here complains about the lack of a legit number 1 center. JT is that guy.

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