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Thread: Is Tavares to the Rangers a Possibility?

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    Is Tavares to the Rangers a Possibility?

    why wouldnt tavares sign with the rangers?

    he'd make so much sense for us if we're losing Nash. that would be cherry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slobberknocker View Post
    why wouldnt tavares sign with the rangers?

    he'd make so much sense for us if we're losing Nash. that would be cherry.
    Of course he would makes sense. Doesn't mean he's going to join us though. IMO there is zero chance he leaves the Isles for the Rangers. Just my opinion.

    I don't see him leaving a seemingly non contender for another, let alone their biggest rivals across the way. Plus signing him at $10M+, then resigning Hayes, Miller, Vesey & Skjei? Not sure the math works. We then have to jettison the guys you need to surround Tavares with due to cap issues, and he's back with the same problem he has had for years with the Isles. Tavares vs the opposition.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love him to be a Ranger next summer. I just think there's more chance we trade Hank than that happening.
    Last edited by pws85nyr; 08-16-2017 at 04:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pws85nyr View Post
    Of course he would makes sense. Doesn't mean he's going to join us though. IMO there is zero chance he leaves the Isles for the Rangers. Just my opinion.

    I don't see him leaving a seemingly non contender for another, let alone their biggest rivals across the way. Plus signing him at $10M+, then resigning Hayes, Miller, Vesey & Skjei? Not sure the math works. We then have to jettison the guys you need to surround Tavares with due to cap issues, and he's back with the same problem he has had for years with the Isles. Tavares vs the opposition.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love him to be a Ranger next summer. I just think there's more chance we trade Hank than that happening.
    thanks for you're response. i agree it's a long shot but damn he'd look good as our 1c, and every islander fan would slit his own throat which is always an added bonus.

    personally i always thought he'd go to toronto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pws85nyr View Post
    I don't see him leaving a seemingly non contender for another, let alone their biggest rivals across the way. Plus signing him at $10M+, then resigning Hayes, Miller, Vesey & Skjei? Not sure the math works. We then have to jettison the guys you need to surround Tavares with due to cap issues, and he's back with the same problem he has had for years with the Isles. Tavares vs the opposition.
    Wait, you think the Rangers are no more of a contender than the Isles? They are terrible, the Rangers are a gamebreaker away from being the Pens biggest competitor in the East.

    Also, let's say Tavares gets $11m, just for the sake of round numbers. The Rangers already have that coming off the books in Nash, Grabner, and Holden. Hayes is expendable if you're bringing in a top center and you can basically just give his current $2.6 to Miller (total of $5.3m). That means you've got Vesey and Skjei who you'd need to clear about $5m for, assuming the cap doesn't go up. Hard to say what happens with Staal, but it's not impossible. I don't think the roster below next year is impossible.

    Miller - JT - Zucc
    Kreider - Zib - Buch
    Vesey - Lias - Lettieri
    Puemple - Nieves - Fast

    Mac - Shatt
    Skjei - Smith
    Bereglazov - DeAngelo

    Now this is a bit of an assumption that young guys can step into the lineup, and you can pick and choose some different guys where I have Lettieri and Puemple, but it's not as if there wouldn't be talent surrounding JT, and this isn't a major stretch financially, especially since I don't think JT even gets $10m. He's probably closer to $9m if he wants any term, and closer to $8.5 if he wants a contract that takes him to 35 or 36.

    Having said all that, if I'm the Isles, I'm trading him right now and certainly not to the Rangers.
    Last edited by Future; 08-17-2017 at 12:46 PM.

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    Yeah, I thought Stamkos was it last summer, but I'll say it again: first overall draft pick franchise players don't hit the FA often. You can bet if he doesn't re-sign with the Isles it's, unsurprisingly, because he doesn't want to be there. After that, if we offer as much as anyone else, we'll have as good a shot as anyone else. I don't think he'd turn his nose up at us out of some acknowledgment to the rivalry. Hell, we're the one place he could sign where he probably wouldn't even have to move. And we ARE a contender, even if we're not Pittsburgh.

    I'd go for him, and I'd pay him whatever it takes. You want to win a Cup with Henrik here? JT gives you the best chance to do it. If you're okay giving up 1st and 2nd rounder and prospects willy-nilly for players at the deadline, you'd better be on board with giving out a big contract too.

    All that aside, I'm guessing we're not rumored to be in on any of the guys named in the OP?

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    He's not resigning, why would he resign with a team that doesn't even have a home?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Wait, you think the Rangers are no more of a contender than the Isles? They are terrible, the Rangers are a gamebreaker away from being the Pens biggest competitor in the East.

    Also, let's say Tavares gets $11m, just for the sake of round numbers. The Rangers already have that coming off the books in Nash, Grabner, and Holden. Hayes is expendable if you're bringing in a top center and you can basically just give his current $2.6 to Miller (total of $5.3m). That means you've got Vesey and Skjei who you'd need to clear about $5m for, assuming the cap doesn't go up. Hard to say what happens with Staal, but it's not impossible. I don't think the roster below next year is impossible.

    Miller - JT - Zucc
    Kreider - Zib - Buch
    Vesey - Lias - Lettieri
    Puemple - Nieves - Fast

    Mac - Shatt
    Skjei - Smith
    Bereglazov - DeAngelo

    Now this is a bit of an assumption that young guys can step into the lineup, and you can pick and choose some different guys where I have Lettieri and Puemple, but it's not as if there wouldn't be talent surrounding JT, and this isn't a major stretch financially, especially since I don't think JT even gets $10m. He's probably closer to $9m if he wants any term, and closer to $8.5 if he wants a contract that takes him to 35 or 36.

    Having said all that, if I'm the Isles, I'm trading him right now and certainly not to the Rangers.
    I think we are more of a contender than the Isles, but that doesn't necessarily make us a contender. Do I think we'll make the playoffs with today's roster? Probably, just. Do I think we contend with this roster, no not really. There are plenty of holes still, but we are making the right moves. We have an aging underperforming goalie, an improved but questionable defence, but more importantly we look awful at center right now.

    Pens, Leafs, Sens, CLB are all better than us. I would argue Caps and Montreal also even though they are both weaker this year. I think Tampa and Carolina improve, as do Buffalo and Florida, whereas on paper we look weaker. I only see us categorically better than Detroit, NJ, Isles, Boston and Philly (likely add Buffalo to). Again this is all on paper, and just my opinion, but I think we struggle this year with the roster as it stands. However, I'm onboard with the changes and like the direction they are going in.

    The team you posted, and granted the lower line wingers could be alternative players, isn't great IMO. I'm not sure why Tavares would be excited to join that team.

    I just think we all have different expectations with this roster. I'm a little more pessimistic than some, but I have been in previous years and look what we achieved. Who knows, stranger things have happened. With Tavares, as much as we would all love to see him play here, I think the majority don't see it for varying reasons.


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    Quote Originally Posted by pws85nyr View Post
    I think we are more of a contender than the Isles, but that doesn't necessarily make us a contender. Do I think we'll make the playoffs with today's roster? Probably, just. Do I think we contend with this roster, no not really. There are plenty of holes still, but we are making the right moves. We have an aging underperforming goalie, an improved but questionable defence, but more importantly we look awful at center right now.

    Pens, Leafs, Sens, CLB are all better than us. I would argue Caps and Montreal also even though they are both weaker this year. I think Tampa and Carolina improve, as do Buffalo and Florida, whereas on paper we look weaker. I only see us categorically better than Detroit, NJ, Isles, Boston and Philly (likely add Buffalo to). Again this is all on paper, and just my opinion, but I think we struggle this year with the roster as it stands. However, I'm onboard with the changes and like the direction they are going in.

    The team you posted, and granted the lower line wingers could be alternative players, isn't great IMO. I'm not sure why Tavares would be excited to join that team.

    I just think we all have different expectations with this roster. I'm a little more pessimistic than some, but I have been in previous years and look what we achieved. Who knows, stranger things have happened. With Tavares, as much as we would all love to see him play here, I think the majority don't see it for varying reasons.


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    I mean, I guess I just don't agree with you on any of that lol. JT makes this team an immediate contender. You're forgetting to add him to the mix when you talk about how we rank vs. other teams in the East.

    That team is way, way more talented than any he's played on with the Isles. I think you're badly underrating the NYR forward group.

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    There's no way he isn't getting $10M+ from someone. He has the 9th most points since he's come into the league. Teams are going to fork over a lot to try and get him. Why should he not get that kind of money. Leon Draisatl just got $8.5M as an RFA at age 21. He's good, but he doesn't have Tavares' resume. There'd be an absolute bidding war.

    You can compete for that first season and maybe that's it. McDonagh's contract expires the following offseason. You suggested bridging Skjei which at most gets you two years of levity and then you have to fork over even more. I don't see how that's an effective strategy to win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    I mean, I guess I just don't agree with you on any of that lol. JT makes this team an immediate contender. You're forgetting to add him to the mix when you talk about how we rank vs. other teams in the East.

    That team is way, way more talented than any he's played on with the Isles. I think you're badly underrating the NYR forward group.
    But then next summer any number of those teams could be greatly improved. Let say the Rangers miss the playoffs, and Patrick and Hirscher turn out to be absolute studs, he could be joining one of the weaker teams in the division. It's all ifs and buts, but what I think I'm getting at is a) I don't see him joining us contender or not (due to salary, rivalry, and my opinions on us being a contender) and b) this team will be there or there abouts this year but not going deep in the playoffs IMO (thus not a contender by my definition).

    I agree I may be underrating our forwards, but I don't see cup contenders having Hayes as a 2nd line center. I think we are asking some of them to play above their roles.

    Anyway, I'm digressing massively from the topic so apologies! Having recently moved I was keen to post more this year and join in these debates/conversations. I hope I'm wrong and simply being pessimistic!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    There's no way he isn't getting $10M+ from someone. He has the 9th most points since he's come into the league. Teams are going to fork over a lot to try and get him. Why should he not get that kind of money. Leon Draisatl just got $8.5M as an RFA at age 21. He's good, but he doesn't have Tavares' resume. There'd be an absolute bidding war.

    You can compete for that first season and maybe that's it. McDonagh's contract expires the following offseason. You suggested bridging Skjei which at most gets you two years of levity and then you have to fork over even more. I don't see how that's an effective strategy to win.
    I don't see it working in terms of cap either. Until Hank goes I don't see FA signings like Tavares being viable personally.


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    Last edited by pws85nyr; 08-17-2017 at 02:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    There's no way he isn't getting $10M+ from someone. He has the 9th most points since he's come into the league. Teams are going to fork over a lot to try and get him. Why should he not get that kind of money. Leon Draisatl just got $8.5M as an RFA at age 21. He's good, but he doesn't have Tavares' resume. There'd be an absolute bidding war.

    You can compete for that first season and maybe that's it. McDonagh's contract expires the following offseason. You suggested bridging Skjei which at most gets you two years of levity and then you have to fork over even more. I don't see how that's an effective strategy to win.
    9th in points to me screams "Not going to get $10m." If Ovechkin, Malkin, Benn and Crosby don't get $10m, Tavares isn't. Of guys who have played 400 games since he came into the league, he's 13th in pp/60. Tavares is a great player, but he's going to sign a contract that starts when he's 28 and would take him until he's 35 or 36. He's had back-to-back declining years and never even sniffed a Stanley Cup. Draisaitl is following the trend of GMs paying guys when they're young. Not paying for them when they're 30+.

    If Tavares wants $10m a year, then he's going to have to settle for 3-4 years. Most likely, he's going to get ~$9m if he wants a 7 or 8 year deal. Let me ask this - is Claude Giroux a $10m/year player? They're all basically the same player, statistically.

    I didn't say bridge Skei.

    Quote Originally Posted by pws85nyr View Post
    I agree I may be underrating our forwards, but I don't see cup contenders having Hayes as a 2nd line center. I think we are asking some of them to play above their roles.

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    You're forgetting the fact that, if Tavares is here, Hayes isn't the 2c. If you can keep him, he's the 3c. If you swap Tavares and Hayes, today, this team is absolutely a contender. You have to consider what the team will look like w/ Tavares and he basically changes the complexion of every team in the league.

    There are a million reasons why he might not come to the Rangers, but they're enough of a contender that I don't think that would be it.
    Last edited by Future; 08-17-2017 at 02:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    9th in points to me screams "Not going to get $10m." If Ovechkin, Malkin, Benn and Crosby don't get $10m, Tavares isn't. Of guys who have played 400 games since he came into the league, he's 13th in pp/60. Tavares is a great player, but he's going to sign a contract that starts when he's 28 and would take him until he's 35 or 36. He's had back-to-back declining years and never even sniffed a Stanley Cup. Draisaitl is following the trend of GMs paying guys when they're young. Not paying for them when they're 30+.

    If Tavares wants $10m a year, then he's going to have to settle for 3-4 years. Most likely, he's going to get ~$9m if he wants a 7 or 8 year deal.

    I didn't say bridge Skei.


    You're forgetting the fact that, if Tavares is here, Hayes isn't the 2c. If you can keep him, he's the 3c. If you swap Tavares and Hayes, today, this team is absolutely a contender. You have to consider what the team will look like w/ Tavares and he basically changes the complexion of every team in the league.

    There are a million reasons why he might not come to the Rangers, but they're enough of a contender that I don't think that would be it.
    But if we sign Tavares at $9M, we wouldn't be able to keep the likes of both Miller & Hayes etc, and I know you didn't say bridge Skjei but you would likely have to (and that could really hurt down the line). If Miller is getting circa $5M, Skjei circa $4.5M...

    Tavares $9M
    Zibanejad $5.35M
    Miller $5M
    Kreider $4.625M
    Zuccarello $4.5M

    Shattenkirk $6.65M
    McDonagh $4.7M
    Skjei $4.5M
    Smith $4.35M

    Lundqvist $8.5M

    $57.175M tied up on 10 players. Only $17,825 for another 10-13, $2M less if we buyout Staal.

    I totally get what you are saying, we are contenders with Tavares. I wouldn't disagree with that. But we aren't, because by signing Tavares you have to lose the supporting cast and replace them with rookies prospects (that we don't really have) and shit veterans on cheap contracts. If you bridge Skjei that's a terrible idea, as is not buying out Staal (at least it looks that way), and then you have to extend McDonagh one year later.

    I agree with what you are saying but I think the implications of signing him stop us being contenders by default. We may just have to agree to disagree lol.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    9th in points to me screams "Not going to get $10m." If Ovechkin, Malkin, Benn and Crosby don't get $10m, Tavares isn't. Of guys who have played 400 games since he came into the league, he's 13th in pp/60. Tavares is a great player, but he's going to sign a contract that starts when he's 28 and would take him until he's 35 or 36. He's had back-to-back declining years and never even sniffed a Stanley Cup. Draisaitl is following the trend of GMs paying guys when they're young. Not paying for them when they're 30+.

    If Tavares wants $10m a year, then he's going to have to settle for 3-4 years. Most likely, he's going to get ~$9m if he wants a 7 or 8 year deal. Let me ask this - is Claude Giroux a $10m/year player? They're all basically the same player, statistically.

    I didn't say bridge Skei.
    Malking re-signed four years ago. Ovheckin nine. Neither hit the open market. Those were huge contracts for when they signed. Ovechkin especially. Anze Kopitar makes $10M, having signed about a year and a half ago, and he didn't hit the open market. You're completely ignoring something that plays a huge role. Contract values are trending upward and there will be multiple parties involved. Tavares will absolutely get $10M. I don't see how 9th in points doesn't scream that.

    Tavares is better than Giroux. Giroux has played with talent. Who has Tavares had? A rotating cast of Matt Moulson, PA Parenteau, Kyle Okposo, etc. Look at what they've done since.

    You said free up $5M for Skjei and Vesey. How does that not imply bridge? Skjei would probably command nearly $5M if he keeps trending upward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    Malking re-signed four years ago. Ovheckin nine. Neither hit the open market. Those were huge contracts for when they signed. Ovechkin especially. Anze Kopitar makes $10M, having signed about a year and a half ago, and he didn't hit the open market. You're completely ignoring something that plays a huge role. Contract values are trending upward and there will be multiple parties involved. Tavares will absolutely get $10M. I don't see how 9th in points doesn't scream that.

    Tavares is better than Giroux. Giroux has played with talent. Who has Tavares had? A rotating cast of Matt Moulson, PA Parenteau, Kyle Okposo, etc. Look at what they've done since.

    You said free up $5M for Skjei and Vesey. How does that not imply bridge? Skjei would probably command nearly $5M if he keeps trending upward.
    Kopitar has two cups. Contract values are going up because of term more than AAV. Ovechkin and Malkin are still the 4th and 5th highest AAV in the league.

    Doesn't matter who he has and hasn't had, especially compared to Giroux, because they've both accomplished equally little. People act like he's a 90-point player with nothing around him, he's not. Of course he's better than Giroux, but there's nothing you can really point to to show it, and that's what matters when it comes to contracts. And again, he might get $10, but it's going to come at half the term. He can take 4 for $40 or 8 for $65, but he's not going to get 8 for $80.

    Free up $5m. They currently account for $1.8m I'm putting the two of them at ~$7m...$5m for Skjei and $2m for Vesey. So you'd need to free up $5m, give or take. Just ballparking it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Kopitar has two cups. Contract values are going up because of term more than AAV. Ovechkin and Malkin are still the 4th and 5th highest AAV in the league.

    Doesn't matter who he has and hasn't had, especially compared to Giroux, because they've both accomplished equally little. People act like he's a 90-point player with nothing around him, he's not. Of course he's better than Giroux, but there's nothing you can really point to to show it, and that's what matters when it comes to contracts. And again, he might get $10, but it's going to come at half the term. He can take 4 for $40 or 8 for $65, but he's not going to get 8 for $80.

    Free up $5m. They currently account for $1.8m I'm putting the two of them at ~$7m...$5m for Skjei and $2m for Vesey. So you'd need to free up $5m, give or take. Just ballparking it.
    We're not remotely going to agree. You're insistent upon comparing him to a player that didn't hit the open market. That's a baseline. That's not what he'll get. You think teams would seriously go in offering him $8M and under? He'd scoff at that. Teams will absolutely pay him large sums. I don't see anything to suggest a team not offering max term of 7 years for $10M. Worse players have gotten $70M or more through free agency.

    No way Vesey only signs for $2M even on a bridge. Hayes and Miller got over $2.5M. Let's say you sign Miller for $5.25M, Skjei for $4.75M and Vesey for $2.75M. Assume Bereglazov and Andersson are in the NHL. You then have $12.6M to sign Tavares, 3 more forwards to make a 4th line and a backup goalie. Nevermind that there's no room for extras. This is even with Staal bought out.

    Signing Tavares isn't a possibility whether it happens at $8M or $10.5M, but I can tell you it sure as hell wouldn't happen at $8M.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pws85nyr View Post
    But if we sign Tavares at $9M, we wouldn't be able to keep the likes of both Miller & Hayes etc, and I know you didn't say bridge Skjei but you would likely have to (and that could really hurt down the line). If Miller is getting circa $5M, Skjei circa $4.5M...

    Tavares $9M
    Zibanejad $5.35M
    Miller $5M
    Kreider $4.625M
    Zuccarello $4.5M

    Shattenkirk $6.65M
    McDonagh $4.7M
    Skjei $4.5M
    Smith $4.35M

    Lundqvist $8.5M

    $57.175M tied up on 10 players. Only $17,825 for another 10-13, $2M less if we buyout Staal.

    I totally get what you are saying, we are contenders with Tavares. I wouldn't disagree with that. But we aren't, because by signing Tavares you have to lose the supporting cast and replace them with rookies prospects (that we don't really have) and shit veterans on cheap contracts. If you bridge Skjei that's a terrible idea, as is not buying out Staal (at least it looks that way), and then you have to extend McDonagh one year later.

    I agree with what you are saying but I think the implications of signing him stop us being contenders by default. We may just have to agree to disagree lol.
    I have said multiple times to replace Hayes - he's the odd man out with JT. His salary goes directly to Miller, so that is a wash. If we signed JT today, after next year, the only guys you're worried about signing are Vesey and Buch - who should be fairly easy. After next year, you trade Zucc if you worry about losing a young guy. Hayes and Zucc would each bring back an ELC bottom-6 player to fill out the depth.

    I don't know why you'd leave Buch, Vesey and Lias all off of your list, considering that's an entire top-9 line of ELC guys lol. Just for fun, after the 18-19 season from now, when we have to re-sign Mac, let's assume the cap is $77.5m. NYR could:

    Kreider (4.6) - JT (10) - Buch (2.5 bridge)
    Miller (5.5) - Zib (5.4) - Vesey (2.5 bridge)
    Lettieri (925k) - Lias (925k) - Fast (1.9)
    Gropp (800k) - Nieves (925k) - Vet Min (1)

    Mac (6) - Shat (6.7)
    Skjei (5) - Smith (4.4)
    Staal (5.7) - DeAngelo (1.5 bridge)

    Hank (8.5)
    Halverson (1)

    Girardi (3.6)

    This totals $79.775m and includes Staal. You can tinker with the bottom-6 and the numbers themselves a bit, but it's not a major stretch to have this roster. If you don't think it's a good one, that's fine. But assuming anybody in the system develops at all, this is more than feasible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    I have said multiple times to replace Hayes - he's the odd man out with JT. His salary goes directly to Miller, so that is a wash. If we signed JT today, after next year, the only guys you're worried about signing are Vesey and Buch - who should be fairly easy. After next year, you trade Zucc if you worry about losing a young guy. Hayes and Zucc would each bring back an ELC bottom-6 player to fill out the depth.

    I don't know why you'd leave Buch, Vesey and Lias all off of your list, considering that's an entire top-9 line of ELC guys lol. Just for fun, after the 18-19 season from now, when we have to re-sign Mac, let's assume the cap is $77.5m. NYR could:

    Kreider (4.6) - JT (10) - Buch (2.5 bridge)
    Miller (5.5) - Zib (5.4) - Vesey (2.5 bridge)
    Lettieri (925k) - Lias (925k) - Fast (1.9)
    Gropp (800k) - Nieves (925k) - Vet Min (1)

    Mac (6) - Shat (6.7)
    Skjei (5) - Smith (4.4)
    Staal (5.7) - DeAngelo (1.5 bridge)

    Hank (8.5)
    Halverson (1)

    Girardi (3.6)

    This totals $79.775m and includes Staal. You can tinker with the bottom-6 and the numbers themselves a bit, but it's not a major stretch to have this roster. If you don't think it's a good one, that's fine. But assuming anybody in the system develops at all, this is more than feasible.


    That's with filling in with whatever crap we have in the system. That doesn't scream competitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    We're not remotely going to agree. You're insistent upon comparing him to a player that didn't hit the open market. That's a baseline. That's not what he'll get. You think teams would seriously go in offering him $8M and under? He'd scoff at that. Teams will absolutely pay him large sums. I don't see anything to suggest a team not offering max term of 7 years for $10M. Worse players have gotten $70M or more through free agency.

    No way Vesey only signs for $2M even on a bridge. Hayes and Miller got over $2.5M. Let's say you sign Miller for $5.25M, Skjei for $4.75M and Vesey for $2.75M. Assume Bereglazov and Andersson are in the NHL. You then have $12.6M to sign Tavares, 3 more forwards to make a 4th line and a backup goalie. Nevermind that there's no room for extras. This is even with Staal bought out.

    Signing Tavares isn't a possibility whether it happens at $8M or $10.5M, but I can tell you it sure as hell wouldn't happen at $8M.
    Parise is the only forward in the league who signed a UFA deal for >$70m. It was 13 years with an AAV of $7.5. He was every bit as good as Tavares at the time and was 28 coming off a 69-point year, JT is about to be 27 coming off a 66-point year. There's no comparables for Tavares as a UFA. I think teams will absolutely go in offering 10 years for $75-80m. The way teams are paying youth right now, I don't think anybody is going to commit to paying him $10m when he's 35.

    Yes it's a possibility. If Skjei is at 4.75 and vesey is at 2.5, that's still basically what I'm talking about. I don't really know what the rest of your numbers are...are you including Nash, Grabner, Desharnais, and Holden?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post


    That's with filling in with whatever crap we have in the system. That doesn't scream competitive.
    The Pens just won back-to-back cups doing that.

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