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Thread: What Will the Rangers' Late Game 'D-ployment' Look Like

  1. #41
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    Why not just clear the zone? Why does it have to be icing or the play that happened? I understand you don't want to give the puck to the opposition, but if it's late in a shift, or there's not a good play, why not get it out, change the line if possible or just reset and defend?

    In scenarios like this I feel like puck possession is this over thought thing. Here having the puck and giving it to a player in poor position could have been avoided if they just cleared the zone. Didn't have to ice it. Just get it out.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Why not just clear the zone? Why does it have to be icing or the play that happened? I understand you don't want to give the puck to the opposition, but if it's late in a shift, or there's not a good play, why not get it out, change the line if possible or just reset and defend?

    In scenarios like this I feel like puck possession is this over thought thing. Here having the puck and giving it to a player in poor position could have been avoided if they just cleared the zone. Didn't have to ice it. Just get it out.
    How easy do you think it is to clear a puck, without turning it over in the neutral zone, under pressure, without icing it?
    Unless that puck is on the other side of the red line, you're not changing clean a lot of the time. If you have the long change, you have no shot.

    It's also the way a coach wants to play the game. Watching this play a few times, I believe Shatty could have iced it if he wanted too.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    How easy do you think it is to clear a puck, without turning it over in the neutral zone, under pressure, without icing it?
    Unless that puck is on the other side of the red line, you're not changing clean a lot of the time. If you have the long change, you have no shot.

    It's also the way a coach wants to play the game. Watching this play a few times, I believe Shatty could have iced it if he wanted too.
    Obviously at the end of a shift and the long change, you're not going to get everyone off the ice in a change, or possibly anybody. But relaxing the pressure to me, is more important than trying for a play that has the potential to backfire within the zone. Who cares if it's turned over in the NZ? Reset and defend if you can't get the guys off the ice. It's more likely that if you pressure the puck in the NZ on such a clear, that you can advance it further without the icing. Seems safer and smarter IMO. Less things that can go wrong and if it does go wrong, you have more ice to adjust to the situation rather than the puck carrier coming toward the goalie at less than 20 or so feet.

    Like on this play, if the puck is dumped out and lands in the NZ for an opponent to take, Ovechkin is coming faster up the boards to pressure that puck carrier IF there even is one..Crap it could be a break out/ stretch pass.
    Last edited by The Dude; 08-22-2017 at 04:55 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Obviously at the end of a shift and the long change, you're not going to get everyone off the ice in a change, or possibly anybody. But relaxing the pressure to me, is more important than trying for a play that has the potential to backfire within the zone. Who cares if it's turned over in the NZ? Reset and defend if you can't get the guys off the ice. It's more likely that if you pressure the puck in the NZ on such a clear, that you can advance it further without the icing. Seems safer and smarter IMO. Less things that can go wrong and if it does go wrong, you have more ice to adjust to the situation rather than the puck carrier coming toward the goalie at less than 20 or so feet.

    Like on this play, if the puck is dumped out and lands in the NZ for an opponent to take, Ovechkin is coming faster up the boards to pressure that puck carrier IF there even is one..Crap it could be a break out/ stretch pass.
    If ? Hope is not a strategy.

    How is chipping it out of the zone considered a break out play or a stretch pass?

    Again, I don't mind a clearing attempt in that spot. I'm also not their coach. I'm explaining the reasoning behind Shatty's and the Caps play. As Puckhead said, that's the way the game is played now. Everyone bitches and moans about puck moving defensemen and puck possession, but 1 play goes wrong because of bad execution and everyone sucks all of a sudden.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    If ? Hope is not a strategy.

    How is chipping it out of the zone considered a break out play or a stretch pass?

    Again, I don't mind a clearing attempt in that spot. I'm also not their coach. I'm explaining the reasoning behind Shatty's and the Caps play. As Puckhead said, that's the way the game is played now. Everyone bitches and moans about puck moving defensemen and puck possession, but 1 play goes wrong because of bad execution and everyone sucks all of a sudden.
    Yes "if" . If there is, then you reset and defend. If not you change. I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm trying to figure out the logic behind what you are saying is being taught. I'm not saying it's your idea. I'm just trying to understand why this way is considered better by you, or if you even think it's better and if so why?

    "If" is the strategy on the play that happened. Play works if the winger is in the right position.

    I don't think Shattenkirk sucks, just the idea of that play, and why it's considered better, as it seems the Rangers rely on that play no matter who their D men are. That play was typical of Girardii over the years. Everyone shit on him. If a true puck moving or puck possession D man like Shattenkirk is going to do the same thing, why think things will improve? Looks more like a forward problem for the Rangers if this is really what teams want. Because this play happened on the daily for this team.

    Chipping it out of the zone isn't a breakout play, but a possible break out if the player in Ovis position is skating hard up the boards into the NZ to follow the puck. The same play that happened, only harder and out of the zone... How's it NOT a stretch pass? Long leading pass with momentum going that way. Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology?
    Last edited by The Dude; 08-24-2017 at 05:30 PM.

  6. #46
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    Personally I ask myself what would I prefer to have seen in this case — regardless of whatever doctrine is being taught or believed to be taught in some places* — what would I prefer to have seen that makes sense in that situation. I would prefer a defenseman to instinctively clear the zone a good measure more firmly than that weak tip in Prima-don't-hit-me-Ovie's direction. Especially if the defending team is going to be the crack-under-sustained pressure Rangers.

    Even tho it was not our error we see to much of this kind of calamity when NYR doesn't get the puck out of the zone under pressure. I hope it is something the Vig-no and D coach addresses in preseason/early season, or we're gonna get more of the same.

    *I'm not convinced of that either in situations where the team is under extreme duress, back on its heels, is a passive flip really the way to go?
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Yes "if" . If there is, then you reset and defend. If not you change. I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm trying to figure out the logic behind what you are saying is being taught. I'm not saying it's your idea. I'm just trying to understand why this way is considered better by you, or if you even think it's better and if so why?

    "If" is the strategy on the play that happened. Play works if the winger is in the right position.

    I don't think Shattenkirk sucks, just the idea of that play, and why it's considered better, as it seems the Rangers rely on that play no matter who their D men are. That play was typical of Girardii over the years. Everyone shit on him. If a true puck moving or puck possession D man like Shattenkirk is going to do the same thing, why think things will improve? Looks more like a forward problem for the Rangers if this is really what teams want. Because this play happened on the daily for this team.

    Chipping it out of the zone isn't a breakout play, but a possible break out if the player in Ovis position is skating hard up the boards into the NZ to follow the puck. The same play that happened, only harder and out of the zone... How's it NOT a stretch pass? Long leading pass with momentum going that way. Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology?
    No, there is no "if the winger is there". It's "the winger has to be there". That's the play. The idea of using that breakout is not to give the puck back to the other team. I like it because I want the puck, I want all 5 of my guys with their feet going in the right direction, and force the other team to skate backwards. Pressure and owning the puck equal better opportunity. There is no such thing as resting. If you're resting, your feet aren't moving. If your feet aren't moving, you're not trying, so get the fuck off the ice.

    Why would Ovi be flying up the boards when the other team is on the forecheck, and has a defender holding the line? He can't fly the zone in that spot, it would be a bad read.

    Stretch passes are made when you're coming off a regroup, and going on the attack. You're in control of the puck, and your D is skating backwards. A stretch pass doesn't have to be 90', it could be between the red and blue lines, which is 25' or shorter. That play was designed to get out of the zone on a breakout. They weren't regrouping there.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    In addition, I love this discussion. This is what I come here for. Thank you.

    Gotta spread it around.
    I actually read this back and forth and as someone that's never played or coached, it was really awesome to read.
    Out: Girardi, Klein, Stepan, Raanta
    In: Shattenkirk, Desharnais, Pavalec, DeAngelo/Bereglazalov/Pionk

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    No, there is no "if the winger is there". It's "the winger has to be there". That's the play. The idea of using that breakout is not to give the puck back to the other team. I like it because I want the puck, I want all 5 of my guys with their feet going in the right direction, and force the other team to skate backwards. Pressure and owning the puck equal better opportunity. There is no such thing as resting. If you're resting, your feet aren't moving. If your feet aren't moving, you're not trying, so get the fuck off the ice.

    Why would Ovi be flying up the boards when the other team is on the forecheck, and has a defender holding the line? He can't fly the zone in that spot, it would be a bad read.

    Stretch passes are made when you're coming off a regroup, and going on the attack. You're in control of the puck, and your D is skating backwards. A stretch pass doesn't have to be 90', it could be between the red and blue lines, which is 25' or shorter. That play was designed to get out of the zone on a breakout. They weren't regrouping there.
    But with the Rangers, the winger isn't there or is late. Kinda like how on the example play Ovi was a bit late or lazy on the puck. I'm not getting how that is a safer play than what I'm suggesting. What's the difference if he's on boards there or past the blue line? Difference to me is the opposition is already in attacking position and have the zone. The way I'm suggesting is the puck is out and your team can change or RESET (not rest I never said that) or you have a guy flying up the ice. They're already in your zone. Get it past them and do what you can.

    Are they not kinda coming off a regroup on the example play? They are breaking out from behind the net with the opposition in their zone already. The goalie started the play instead of covering it, he passes it to Shatty, and then they regroup. No? What is that called then?

    I'm honestly not trying to argue. I'm just not getting the logic or the reasoning behind the logic. I understand you want the puck, but on such a play your risking not having the puck much longer and having the opponent have a shorter distance to capitalize on what can easily be screwed up.

    Please don't take this as me talking like I know anything about coaching. I'm really just trying to pick your or others brain on why it's thought of a a good idea.
    Last edited by The Dude; 08-26-2017 at 03:47 PM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    But with the Rangers, the winger isn't there or is late. Kinda like how on the example play Ovi was a bit late or lazy on the puck. I'm not getting how that is a safer play than what I'm suggesting. What's the difference if he's on boards there or past the blue line? Difference to me is the opposition is already in attacking position and have the zone. The way I'm suggesting is the puck is out and your team can change or RESET (not rest I never said that) or you have a guy flying up the ice. They're already in your zone. Get it past them and do what you can.

    Are they not kinda coming off a regroup on the example play? They are breaking out from behind the net with the opposition in their zone already. The goalie started the play instead of covering it, he passes it to Shatty, and then they regroup. No? What is that called then?

    I'm honestly not trying to argue. I'm just not getting the logic or the reasoning behind the logic. I understand you want the puck, but on such a play your risking not having the puck much longer and having the opponent have a shorter distance to capitalize on what can easily be screwed up.

    Please don't take this as me talking like I know anything about coaching. I'm really just trying to pick your or others brain on why it's thought of a a good idea.
    The difference of him being on the boards instead of flying the zone is because the puck is still in the zone and he's on the strong side. If the puck doesn't get out, you're short handed. The weak side guy could fly if the opportunity is there. It's a read. There's no reseting either. I'd rather ice the puck than turn it over on my side of the nz. I don't want my guys scrambling around during a pressured shift.

    No, that's not a regroup. Regroups occur in the nz. Holtby is an asshole for giving the puck up there in the first place. You regroup when you're in control. Yes, they had the puck, but they weren't in "control". Too many guys out of position, and they were being pressured deep in their own end. Regroup when you're in control, with time. That's when you settle down, regroup, and start on the attack again.
    Last edited by Mikey37; 08-26-2017 at 09:10 PM.
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    Thank you for a good explanation. Didn't think of the fact that if it doesn't go through, you're short handed with it going the other way.

    Why isn't there a thing like resetting? Like an intentional give away, but out of the zone just to gather themselves and get set better? Just not enough time to get their shit together?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Thank you for a good explanation. Didn't think of the fact that if it doesn't go through, you're short handed with it going the other way.

    Why isn't there a thing like resetting? Like an intentional give away, but out of the zone just to gather themselves and get set better? Just not enough time to get their shit together?
    Pucks get chipped out all the time. At ES you're either changing, or someone is pressuring the puck after the opponent gains control. Why chip it out and allow the other team to regroup or possibly catch you in a change or out of position while your just watching them ? Chip outs, regroups, and breakouts happen 100 times during a game. Hockey is a constant flow, everyone must do their job every shift on a read and react basis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    Pucks get chipped out all the time. At ES you're either changing, or someone is pressuring the puck after the opponent gains control. Why chip it out and allow the other team to regroup or possibly catch you in a change or out of position while your just watching them ? Chip outs, regroups, and breakouts happen 100 times during a game. Hockey is a constant flow, everyone must do their job every shift on a read and react basis.
    101 times in this game prevents a goal against.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    101 times in this game prevents a goal against.
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    To the thread Q: Our D-ployment all depends on the kind of gum AV is chewing at the moment.

    Been watching soccer closely for the past couple of seasons at Red Bulls Arena and I began wondering about why the NHL doesn't use the goalie more as a passing piece to relieve pressure on the D? I know the risks, but moving the puck via passing is a heck of a lot faster than by a tired defenseman skating. My point is, some coach somewhere is going to adapt this into their team's game plan and it will force the opposing team to run around a bit more chasing the puck. Chasing = tired legs.

    What do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4EverRangerFrank View Post
    To the thread Q: Our D-ployment all depends on the kind of gum AV is chewing at the moment.

    Been watching soccer closely for the past couple of seasons at Red Bulls Arena and I began wondering about why the NHL doesn't use the goalie more as a passing piece to relieve pressure on the D? I know the risks, but moving the puck via passing is a heck of a lot faster than by a tired defenseman skating. My point is, some coach somewhere is going to adapt this into their team's game plan and it will force the opposing team to run around a bit more chasing the puck. Chasing = tired legs.

    What do you think?
    Will never happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    Will never happen.
    it has happened. the devils passed back to brodeur all the time

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4EverRangerFrank View Post
    To the thread Q: Our D-ployment all depends on the kind of gum AV is chewing at the moment.

    Been watching soccer closely for the past couple of seasons at Red Bulls Arena and I began wondering about why the NHL doesn't use the goalie more as a passing piece to relieve pressure on the D? I know the risks, but moving the puck via passing is a heck of a lot faster than by a tired defenseman skating. My point is, some coach somewhere is going to adapt this into their team's game plan and it will force the opposing team to run around a bit more chasing the puck. Chasing = tired legs.

    What do you think?
    A few teams have done a little bit of this in the past, most notably the Devils when Brodeur was there. There are a few issues with this, though. The biggest is that ice can be an unpredictable surface, specifically around the crease. A puck passed back to the goalie that hits some snow and changes direction to sail into the net by his stick is a nightmare. A fanned pass back to the goalie can lead to a breakaway. A goalie mishandling the puck with pressure can turn into a quick chance against.

    In soccer, the distances and speed are signficantly different as far as most balls played back towards the goalie. A soccer goalie has more tools available. He can throw it out or kick it over and well past any attacking forwards. He can play it out of bounds if need be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    it has happened. the devils passed back to brodeur all the time
    Huge difference between being at your blueline and passing it to the goalie, and having a forechecker in your face and passing it to the goalie.

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    Smith, Holtby, Price and Emery take passes.

    Lundqvist should never try to play the puck.

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