Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 50

Thread: Let's Talk About Charlottesville

  1. #21
    Senior Member Midget Division Rangers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    So we should only worry if they grow to the size and strength of antifa?
    If you have read my previous posts, then you would have understood that I have said that it doesn't matter if it's 1 natzi or 2000 of them. The button line is, kill it at its roots.
    Shoot the puck!

  2. #22
    Senior Member BSBH Prospect
    So Nashty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    10,243
    Rep Power
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    I think it's a total collapse of that movement. If they've any hope of carrying on they really have to cleanse it of any Nazi related garbage. It's the dumbest shit I've ever seen if they think they're ever going to be taken seriously with that imagery. In the end it was a much more esoteric movement than they ever imagined in their mind's eye and even from what's portrayed in the news.

    It is a little perplexing that the other side of the coin (Marxists, ANTIFA, etc) gets a total free pass among the general populace and MSM. You can't have a statue of Robert E. Lee (A truly great man, probably the greatest home grown US General, from possibly the greatest family in the early history of the country) but it's perfectly OK to have a statue of Lenin. Logically, the next targets will be Jefferson, Washington and the rest of the founding fathers.

    As shitty as some of this groups views are, it's not a violent movement. Another factor here, perhaps the biggest, is the utter failure by the local government. I'm not sure why they just didn't keep the groups separated.

    Ben Shapiro drew some parallels to the Brownshirts vs. the Reds in Weimar Germany. Not exactly, but a little taste of it, for sure.
    I dont get your first comment- what movement? These idiots were marching through the streets chanting "jews will not replace us" and "blood and soil" (a nazi slogan). They ARE neo nazi's.

    I cant comment on the Lenin part as I am not sure what this is referring to exactly but I am all for taking down statues of confederate heroes. It's not at all about deleting history its about not celebrating aspects of it that are truly awful. Southerners participated in the act of human slavery, to have a statue up of someone who fought to preserve that (and not only that but was key in the fight), and more so having schools, public buildings etc. named after them is kind of egregious in my opinion. Imagine being a black kid being told that Robert E Lee, who believed you should still be in chains, is a great man and should be celebrated. Yes history is full of awful people who are famous for doing great things including some of the founding fathers. The difference is Jefferson isnt being celebrated for being a slave owner, hes being celebrated for being a president and founding father. Lee is celebrated for defending dissidence, and human rights violations.

    Besides that it also continues to be a rallying call for these racist idiots and if thats the only reason to take this down then I am all for it.

  3. #23
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    22,073
    Rep Power
    188
    I don't mind the statues. If you think they represent bigotry or you whorship them, you're an idiot to begin with. They are a part of history. Some of those guys were honored for what they did for their community, and not owning slaves or fighting in a war. The civil war was fought over much more than just slavery, sorry.

    We also have Washington who slaughtered Indians, Jefferson raping slaves, etc etc.
    Fuck, New York is named in honor of a prominent slave trader

    Removing statues doesn't remove history, it sweeps it under the rug.

  4. #24
    #MakePetrGreatAgain BSBH Legend
    Phil in Absentia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    82,452
    Rep Power
    368
    Statues are erected to honor causes, not people. MLK, for example, is revered for his work on civil rights. That's why he has a statue. Despite being against gay marriage, for example. No one looks at his statue and thinks "fuck that homophobic asshole!"
    Hidden Content

    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
    - John Tortorella


    "I've always said, I'd rather tame a tiger than paint stripes on a kitty cat."
    - Dean Lombardi


    "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus, and the feeling that whatever
    you think you’'e bound to be okay, because you're in the safely moral majority."

    - Christopher Hitchens

  5. #25
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    22,073
    Rep Power
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Statues are erected to honor causes, not people. MLK, for example, is revered for his work on civil rights. That's why he has a statue. Despite being against gay marriage, for example. No one looks at his statue and thinks "fuck that homophobic asshole!"
    So the south put up a bunch of statues of losing war generals?
    Then taking them down is dumber than I thought, if they honor losing the war, as you suggest.
    (Edit: I was strictly talking statues, not monuments or memorials. My bad)

    I'm sure they will soon.
    Last edited by josh; 08-18-2017 at 02:56 PM. Reason: Added shit

  6. #26
    Senior Member BSBH Prospect
    So Nashty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    10,243
    Rep Power
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Statues are erected to honor causes, not people. MLK, for example, is revered for his work on civil rights. That's why he has a statue. Despite being against gay marriage, for example. No one looks at his statue and thinks "fuck that homophobic asshole!"
    Which makes it even worse to have a statue of a confederate general standing. You're honoring the cause supporting the enslavement of human beings.

    And again its not about erasing history its about not honoring and celebrating evil causes. No one is saying lets forget the civil war.

    Besides, werent like the majority of these statues erected in the 1930's-1960s mainly to intimidate african americans living in the south anyway? its not like the statues themselves have any historic value.

  7. #27
    Senior Member BSBH Prospect
    So Nashty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    10,243
    Rep Power
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    I don't mind the statues. If you think they represent bigotry or you whorship them, you're an idiot to begin with. They are a part of history. Some of those guys were honored for what they did for their community, and not owning slaves or fighting in a war. The civil war was fought over much more than just slavery, sorry.

    We also have Washington who slaughtered Indians, Jefferson raping slaves, etc etc.
    Fuck, New York is named in honor of a prominent slave trader

    Removing statues doesn't remove history, it sweeps it under the rug.
    It was fought over more than just slavery, yes. It was still fought over slavery.

    And again we dont celebrate Jefferson for owning and raping slaves, we celebrate him for being a founding father and president. Anyone who tells you they celebrate Lee for his military prowess is either a massive history buff which is like .001% of the population or is lying to you.

  8. #28
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    22,073
    Rep Power
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by So Nashty View Post
    It was fought over more than just slavery, yes. It was still fought over slavery.

    And again we dont celebrate Jefferson for owning and raping slaves, we celebrate him for being a founding father and president. Anyone who tells you they celebrate Lee for his military prowess is either a massive history buff which is like .001% of the population or is lying to you.
    Wait...
    So we can have a Jefferson statue for things he did, but we can't for Lee? Are you saying people ripping down these statues are ignorant?

  9. #29
    Senior Member BSBH Prospect
    So Nashty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    10,243
    Rep Power
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Wait...
    So we can have a Jefferson statue for things he did, but we can't for Lee? Are you saying people ripping down these statues are ignorant?
    We can have a jefferson statue because were celebrating the fact that he was a founding father. No one looks at a jefferson statue and goes "his main accomplishment was owning slaves"

    We shouldnt have a Lee statue because people look at a Lee statue and think "he was the general for the army that wanted to retain slaves".

    Hitler did a lot of great things for the German state, but thats not what people think when they look at him, and rightfully so. I dont think many black kids are looking at a statue of robert e lee and going "ah! history!"


    Not sure what your next comment is in reference to, I never said anything to that effect.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Midget Division
    Niko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Crooklyn
    Posts
    4,207
    Rep Power
    53
    America is in a sad state. Obviously, no sane person thinks being a Neo Nazi or nazi sympathizer is in anyway ok. However, why does BLM get a pass on murdering cops and calling for "dead cops", violent "protests", burning down and looting several cities across the United States? Why isn't ANTIFA considered a domestic terrorist group when they literally riot and destroy cities when they oppose anything and use physical violence and intimidation to combat any one who disagrees with their drastically progressive views?

    Why aren't they all painted with the same brush as being shit heads this country can do with out? Hating someone based on race, gender or dare I say profession is wrong, point blank. I don't get why any of it is justified, accepted or tolerated.

  11. #31
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    22,073
    Rep Power
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    America is in a sad state. Obviously, no sane person thinks being a Neo Nazi or nazi sympathizer is in anyway ok. However, why does BLM get a pass on murdering cops and calling for "dead cops", violent "protests", burning down and looting several cities across the United States? Why isn't ANTIFA considered a domestic terrorist group when they literally riot and destroy cities when they oppose anything and use physical violence and intimidation to combat any one who disagrees with their drastically progressive views?

    Why aren't they all painted with the same brush as being shit heads this country can do with out? Hating someone based on race, gender or dare I say profession is wrong, point blank. I don't get why any of it is justified, accepted or tolerated.
    As So Nasthy above you explains - ignorance.
    We see what we want, ignore things we dont. Its about perception, not truth.

  12. #32
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    22,073
    Rep Power
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    America is in a sad state. Obviously, no sane person thinks being a Neo Nazi or nazi sympathizer is in anyway ok. However, why does BLM get a pass on murdering cops and calling for "dead cops", violent "protests", burning down and looting several cities across the United States? Why isn't ANTIFA considered a domestic terrorist group when they literally riot and destroy cities when they oppose anything and use physical violence and intimidation to combat any one who disagrees with their drastically progressive views?

    Why aren't they all painted with the same brush as being shit heads this country can do with out? Hating someone based on race, gender or dare I say profession is wrong, point blank. I don't get why any of it is justified, accepted or tolerated.
    Its also ironic that the neo nazis are labeled violent, even though there was no violence until the counter protesters showed up.

    Yet, at "non violent" antifa rallies, there is violence, riots and destruction when they are the only group there...

    Again, I dont agree with any extremist group, but its easy to see the difference in how they are treated.

  13. #33
    Just a Simple Country Squire BSBH Prospect
    Dunny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    10,991
    Rep Power
    199
    It's a narrative that isn't going anywhere.

    This is no end game for progressives. There's no point when they'll say "OK, that's about right, I think society is about where we like it now, let's just get on with our lives and maybe leave everyone alone."

    It's not going to happen.

    The KKK or nao-nazis or whatever aren't a threat to anything. They're obviously fucking in bizarre land, and nobody takes them seriously. The whole" Alt-Right" thing was taken by Richard Spencer and driven in to the ditch. The fact he allowed these types within the original boundaries just shows how fucking dumb he is. It was so suicidal I almost have to think some of these guys were plants to co-opt the original intent.

    On the other hand, their counterparts, these utterly crazy, psychotic, totalitarian progressives yield a shit load of power. They will yield this power to reduce personal freedoms. I don't think that's even a question as we're pretty much at the point where your 1st amendment is dead in the water. It's toast. There is only one acceptable ideology to follow and if you aren't on board things can go very badly for you in a hurry, especially if you have any kind of public profile.

    It's obviously very complicated, but it's these people that scare me more than anything.

  14. #34
    Senior Member BSBH Prospect
    So Nashty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    10,243
    Rep Power
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    As So Nasthy above you explains - ignorance.
    We see what we want, ignore things we dont. Its about perception, not truth.
    in all fairness if it was ever about truth then I dont think any "statue" would be standing right now.

    but thats what history is anyway.. the perception of the victor.

    in any case, yes we can all agree that extremist groups of any denomination are a bad thing.

  15. #35
    I feel sorry for the earth's population BSBH Prospect
    AmericanJesus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    19,507
    Rep Power
    328
    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    It's a narrative that isn't going anywhere.

    This is no end game for progressives. There's no point when they'll say "OK, that's about right, I think society is about where we like it now, let's just get on with our lives and maybe leave everyone alone."

    It's not going to happen.

    The KKK or nao-nazis or whatever aren't a threat to anything. They're obviously fucking in bizarre land, and nobody takes them seriously. The whole" Alt-Right" thing was taken by Richard Spencer and driven in to the ditch. The fact he allowed these types within the original boundaries just shows how fucking dumb he is. It was so suicidal I almost have to think some of these guys were plants to co-opt the original intent.

    On the other hand, their counterparts, these utterly crazy, psychotic, totalitarian progressives yield a shit load of power. They will yield this power to reduce personal freedoms. I don't think that's even a question as we're pretty much at the point where your 1st amendment is dead in the water. It's toast. There is only one acceptable ideology to follow and if you aren't on board things can go very badly for you in a hurry, especially if you have any kind of public profile.

    It's obviously very complicated, but it's these people that scare me more than anything.
    There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to start.

    The insane far lefties are the fringe.

    Free speech in the US is alive, well and under no threat what so ever.

    I'll agree Neo Nazis are an overblown nuisance, not a societal issue.
    “Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― Neil Gaiman,

  16. #36
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    22,073
    Rep Power
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by So Nashty View Post
    in all fairness if it was ever about truth then I dont think any "statue" would be standing right now.

    but thats what history is anyway.. the perception of the victor.

    in any case, yes we can all agree that extremist groups of any denomination are a bad thing.

    censorship!

  17. #37
    Senior Member Junior Division
    BlairBettsBlocksEverything's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    5,799
    Rep Power
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    It's a narrative that isn't going anywhere.

    This is no end game for progressives. There's no point when they'll say "OK, that's about right, I think society is about where we like it now, let's just get on with our lives and maybe leave everyone alone."

    It's not going to happen.

    The KKK or nao-nazis or whatever aren't a threat to anything. They're obviously fucking in bizarre land, and nobody takes them seriously. The whole" Alt-Right" thing was taken by Richard Spencer and driven in to the ditch. The fact he allowed these types within the original boundaries just shows how fucking dumb he is. It was so suicidal I almost have to think some of these guys were plants to co-opt the original intent.

    On the other hand, their counterparts, these utterly crazy, psychotic, totalitarian progressives yield a shit load of power. They will yield this power to reduce personal freedoms. I don't think that's even a question as we're pretty much at the point where your 1st amendment is dead in the water. It's toast. There is only one acceptable ideology to follow and if you aren't on board things can go very badly for you in a hurry, especially if you have any kind of public profile.

    It's obviously very complicated, but it's these people that scare me more than anything.
    and what about his views and the 'original intent' don't fall in line with what Nazi's believe? He's a white nationalist, he believes in white supremacy. Just because he wears a suit and presents himself in a clean-cut way doesn't mean they've diverted from their intent. Hell at one of his meetings the crowd were doing 'heil' salutes and heiling trump.

    Also, the first ammendment protects you from the government, not consequences from what you say. If you go into work one day and start spouting out racist shit, getting fired isn't a violation of your first ammendment rights.
    __________________________________

  18. #38
    In Vigneault, Veritas BSBH Prospect
    G1000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    16,651
    Rep Power
    122
    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    It's a narrative that isn't going anywhere.

    This is no end game for progressives. There's no point when they'll say "OK, that's about right, I think society is about where we like it now, let's just get on with our lives and maybe leave everyone alone."

    It's not going to happen.

    The KKK or nao-nazis or whatever aren't a threat to anything. They're obviously fucking in bizarre land, and nobody takes them seriously. The whole" Alt-Right" thing was taken by Richard Spencer and driven in to the ditch. The fact he allowed these types within the original boundaries just shows how fucking dumb he is. It was so suicidal I almost have to think some of these guys were plants to co-opt the original intent.

    On the other hand, their counterparts, these utterly crazy, psychotic, totalitarian progressives yield a shit load of power. They will yield this power to reduce personal freedoms. I don't think that's even a question as we're pretty much at the point where your 1st amendment is dead in the water. It's toast. There is only one acceptable ideology to follow and if you aren't on board things can go very badly for you in a hurry, especially if you have any kind of public profile.

    It's obviously very complicated, but it's these people that scare me more than anything.
    We didn't take them seriously last year. Look what happened. They're louder. They're more powerful. Their talking heads had White House positions. We're two slip-ups away from having Alex Jones as a cabinet member.

    Frankly, reading this thread was somewhat disheartening to me. You know why we shouldn't have Robert E Lee statues? He was part of the single greatest treason in our country's history. See any Benedict Arnold statues anywhere? Think France has any Laval statues? Nope. Traitor. Treasonist. Should not be celebrated. If there are groups that feel like the CSA is part of their history, they can feel free to pursue it. It's as much a part of the history of the United States of America as every other opponent in war - loser. You don't get to be both confederate and American.

    You know why we're opposed to the marches in Charlottesville? Because Nazis are bad. There's literally no gray area here. Nazis are bad. We have literally limitless evidence of that fact - from the WW2 veterans who fought them to the legislative agenda they espoused, to the camps they executed whole cultures in and those with forearm tattoos lucky enough to escape them.

    When a group of people show up in your town chanting catch-phrases from literally the greatest threat to humanity in the last 150 years, evoking the worst parts of our national history, carrying the flag of the nation that attempted to tear the USA asunder, and walking through the streets holding up torches and pitchforks, the right reaction should be absolute, unequivocal derision. The first amendment protects your right to free speech and peaceable assembly, but it doesn't protect the rest of the country from coming down on you as hard as humanly possibly for idolizing the personification of evil and then marching through the streets preaching it.

    Our grandparents fought these people for a reason. Bout time we heed that lesson.
    Last edited by G1000; 08-23-2017 at 09:14 PM.
    Hidden Content
    Blueshirts Brotherhood. We do what we must because we can - for the good of all Rangerkind

  19. #39
    I feel sorry for the earth's population BSBH Prospect
    AmericanJesus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    19,507
    Rep Power
    328
    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    We didn't take them seriously last year. Look what happened. They're louder. They're more powerful. Their talking heads had White House positions. We're two slip-ups away from having Alex Jones as a cabinet member.

    Frankly, reading this thread was somewhat disheartening to me. You know why we shouldn't have Robert E Lee statues? He was part of the single greatest treason in our country's history. See any Benedict Arnold statues anywhere? Think France has any Laval statues? Nope. Traitor. Treasonist. Should not be celebrated. If there are groups that feel like the CSA is part of their history, they can feel free to pursue it. It's as much a part of the history of the United States of America as every other opponent in war - loser. You don't get to be both confederate and American.

    You know why we're opposed to the marches in Charlottesville? Because Nazis are bad. There's literally no gray area here. Nazis are bad. We have literally limitless evidence of that fact - from the WW2 veterans who fought them to the legislative agenda they espoused, to the camps they executed whole cultures in and those with forearm tattoos lucky enough to escape them.

    When a group of people show up in your town chanting catch-phrases from literally the greatest threat to humanity in the last 150 years, evoking the worst parts of our national history, carrying the flag of the nation that attempted to tear the USA asunder, and walking through the streets holding up torches and pitchforks, the right reaction should be absolute, unequivocal derision. The first amendment protects your right to free speech and peaceable assembly, but it doesn't protect the rest of the country from coming down on you as hard as humanly possibly for idolizing the personification of evil and then marching through the streets preaching it.

    Our grandparents fought these people for a reason. Bout time we heed that lesson.
    I was going to come in here for a long form response. Thanks to this, I don't have to. Very well said.

  20. #40
    Just a Simple Country Squire BSBH Prospect
    Dunny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    10,991
    Rep Power
    199
    Nazis are bad, communists are cool, though. Got it.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •