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Thread: What's the Return for Golden Holden?

  1. #21
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    Caught up in words I don't like? When the word means to give away an asset for nothing, yeah I don't like it. Even if "sell high" for Holden only returns a mid round pick, I want that pick. And I doubt GM's around the league listen to rangers writers, bloggers and fan boys constant bashing when evaluating potential trades.

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    tough shit. We arent dealing for draft picks right now.


    UNLESS.... EVERYONE EXCEED EXPECTATIONS, YOUNG GUYS STEP UP, THE DEFENSE IS LUCKY WITH HEALTH, ETC ETC ETC

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    I didn't say trade him for picks right now. I said trade him for a pick instead of waiving him. Right now i'd like to package him for a center if possible.

    Holden exceed expectations last year. His ice time plateaued mid season and regressed over the last 20 games. Skjei's ice time increased as the season went on. Everything you're saying to discredit Skeji and Shattenkirk, talking about injuries, all equal applies to Holden.

    Mcd - Shattenkirk
    Skjei - Smith
    Staal - DeAngelo

    In no way, shape, or form does Holden make that D corps better. Additionally, carrying Kampfer as the 7th D and using Bereglazov or Pionk for a longer term injury replacement is not going to destroy the season.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Mite Division rmc51's Avatar
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    I don't see the value in dealing Holden for a mid round pick unless it's to clear a little more salary to add another center/winger. Why would a mid round pick be more valuable than a more experienced defenseman who can step into the lineup in the event of injury or someone like DeAngelo not panning out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    I don't see the value in dealing Holden for a mid round pick unless it's to clear a little more salary to add another center/winger. Why would a mid round pick be more valuable than a more experienced defenseman who can step into the lineup in the event of injury or someone like DeAngelo not panning out?
    Because a draft pick represents a young player full of potential, where as Holden even if we keep him is a UFA at the end of the year and won't be resigned. It's pretty straight forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    I don't see the value in dealing Holden for a mid round pick unless it's to clear a little more salary to add another center/winger. Why would a mid round pick be more valuable than a more experienced defenseman who can step into the lineup in the event of injury or someone like DeAngelo not panning out?
    Holden for a center makes sense - for Bozak in particular - because he clears cap space AND brings value back.

    Holden isn't going to see the ice this year, more than likely, so you're better off getting a pick for him than having him ride pine and then losing him for nothing next year.

  7. #27
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    Holden would be a throw in in any deal made for any 2 C. Losing him to FA, waiving him, or sitting him is not poor asset management. The point Josh is trying to make is that there's still uncertainty on the blue line, so why trade someone who knows the system and had a career year here while making peanuts? It's not even a gamble. It's like having 5k in chips in front of you, and keeping a $5 chip in your pocket .... big picture it means nothing, but you might need it later to tip the valet.
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    I think some of us are focused on this season. Others want late round picks that rarely mount to anything.

    If there is a move to make THIS team immediately better, you have to consider it (and that's for anyone). Making a trade just to make a trade is bad for the team and it's bad business.
    Don't try to convince me that trading a potential valuable piece for this season for a late pick that has little chance to amount to anything is a smart move. It's not. The grass is fucking brown over there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    I think some of us are focused on this season. Others want late round picks that rarely mount to anything.

    If there is a move to make THIS team immediately better, you have to consider it (and that's for anyone). Making a trade just to make a trade is bad for the team and it's bad business.
    Don't try to convince me that trading a potential valuable piece for this season for a late pick that has little chance to amount to anything is a smart move. It's not. The grass is fucking brown over there.
    This is my, and probably most of the people in favor of trading him, whole argument. Holden is no more of a "potential valuable piece" than Bereglazov.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    sell high? come on, its Holden. And rangers writers, bloggers and fan boys have ruined any potential to sell high with their constant bashing.

    As for mid-season fill-ins, we've seen to have more success with forwards that can come up and be serviceable than defensemen. No real issue bringing up guys to plug in on the 4th line. I think we've struggled to find 6/7 dmen, pretty much every season.

    We've got Zib, Hayes and DD. I want Miller at C (have for a long time). We've also got Boo, Lias and probably 3 other options from our system that can fill in on the 4th line. (And if Miller gets time at C, you have a lot more options of guys that can play 4th line wing)

    To me, 6th dman is going to be more important to this team than 1 4th line player/13th forward.
    The problem is they aren't really looking for a 4th line center. They are looking for a 1 or a 2. The proposed deal was for Bozak. If the hole were on the bottom lines I'd agree totally. Not that I differ greatly on the opinion that Holden or Staal, NEED to be moved. I don't think they both do.

    But if they can indeed sell high on Holden and somehow get a 2nd line center in the deal (obviously it's going to take more), It's a no brainier. I'd rather they garbage pick or take chances on unknowns for a possible 6/7th D man, than go into the season with Hayes as the 2nd line center.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Holden for a center makes sense - for Bozak in particular - because he clears cap space AND brings value back.

    Holden isn't going to see the ice this year, more than likely, so you're better off getting a pick for him than having him ride pine and then losing him for nothing next year.
    This is where the real debate is. I'm not exactly a Holden fan, but I'm not about to write him off as a worse option than anyone outside of our top 4 defensemen. Now I would likely try others before Holden, but there is no guarantee that any of those other options pan out. I like the idea of having Holden in my back pocket as a safety net.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    This is my, and probably most of the people in favor of trading him, whole argument. Holden is no more of a "potential valuable piece" than Bereglazov.
    You've never even see Bereglazov play.

    and thats your argument

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    sell high? come on, its Holden. And rangers writers, bloggers and fan boys have ruined any potential to sell high with their constant bashing.

    As for mid-season fill-ins, we've seen to have more success with forwards that can come up and be serviceable than defensemen. No real issue bringing up guys to plug in on the 4th line. I think we've struggled to find 6/7 dmen, pretty much every season.

    We've got Zib, Hayes and DD. I want Miller at C (have for a long time). We've also got Boo, Lias and probably 3 other options from our system that can fill in on the 4th line. (And if Miller gets time at C, you have a lot more options of guys that can play 4th line wing)

    To me, 6th dman is going to be more important to this team than 1 4th line player/13th forward.
    If you're OK moving Miller to center, then we have a similar flexibility there as for depth defense. I'll give you that. But if not, I think it doesn't go much beyond Boo and Lias. I don't see anyone else of note in the system that is close to being ready. It's putting a lot of hope that Zib and Hayes can go from 2nd and 3rd line centers to 1st and 2nd. That's a different level of opposition they'll each face game in and game out. I think when you have a legit 3rd line center who can play up, that's managable. But I don't see us with one unless Lias really shines.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    Holden would be a throw in in any deal made for any 2 C. Losing him to FA, waiving him, or sitting him is not poor asset management. The point Josh is trying to make is that there's still uncertainty on the blue line, so why trade someone who knows the system and had a career year here while making peanuts? It's not even a gamble. It's like having 5k in chips in front of you, and keeping a $5 chip in your pocket .... big picture it means nothing, but you might need it later to tip the valet.
    Holden wouldn't exactly be a throw in, though. He showed last year that when he got away from the grave yard that is Colorado, he can have some value. He has the most value when moving him to a team that needs a cheap defender who can play a 3-6 role in the lineup. I agree that flipping him for a pick is useless unless we need that cap space right now for a secondary move. Flipping him as part of the compensation for another 2/3 center who can help shore up our biggest area of weakness isn't just parting with him to be done with him, though.

    I keep Holden as a 7th/8th defender over trading him for a 3rd or 4th round pick if we have no need for additional cap space. He has much more value to the organization than that.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Holden wouldn't exactly be a throw in, though. He showed last year that when he got away from the grave yard that is Colorado, he can have some value. He has the most value when moving him to a team that needs a cheap defender who can play a 3-6 role in the lineup. I agree that flipping him for a pick is useless unless we need that cap space right now for a secondary move. Flipping him as part of the compensation for another 2/3 center who can help shore up our biggest area of weakness isn't just parting with him to be done with him, though.

    I keep Holden as a 7th/8th defender over trading him for a 3rd or 4th round pick if we have no need for additional cap space. He has much more value to the organization than that.
    Yeah, if the deal is going to make a contending team better at the moment, it needs to be done. Holden, alone, is not fetching anyone that makes the Rangers better right now, and certainly isn't fetching a high enough pick to make them better down the road. Any trading partner would value the Rangers high pick(s) more than they value Holden, so to me he's a throw in. It doesn't make sense for the Rangers to trade Holden for a 4th rounder, when he's more valuable to your team right now than that pick is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    You've never even see Bereglazov play.

    and thats your argument
    Well that's awfully presumptuous of you...

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    This is where the real debate is. I'm not exactly a Holden fan, but I'm not about to write him off as a worse option than anyone outside of our top 4 defensemen. Now I would likely try others before Holden, but there is no guarantee that any of those other options pan out. I like the idea of having Holden in my back pocket as a safety net.
    That's fair, and that's the question mark. BUT if a team like Toronto sees him as a guy who can play 18:00 a night and thinks he could be a key piece in a trade for a player like Bozak, then you have to pull the trigger on that. It'd be nice to have Holden in your back pocket should things really go south, but that's a luxury and, with the hole we have at center, it makes sense to swap.

  18. #38
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    Would you trade Kevin Hayes for Holden + 2nd?

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    Apples to oranges
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    Hayes and Bozak?

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