Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 63

Thread: Why Zibanejad Absolutely Must Sign Long-Term

  1. #41
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    21,599
    Rep Power
    180
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    $100K per point/82. He's a 50 point player at the moment. 5 years gives the Rangers his prime (up to 29) and leaves him with one more payday if he continues to perform.

    5 year, $25M total, $5M average with some of the bonuses for lockout/buyout protection that we've seen. Limited NTC, 10 teams he can select to not be traded to July 1st of each year.
    Other than 1 season, he's closer to a 42pt per season kinda guy.

    But throw him that NTC for losing draws, not being good on the PP, suspect defensive game, below avg penalty killer, etc.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Bantam Division
    Long live the King's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    1,077
    Rep Power
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Other than 1 season, he's closer to a 42pt per season kinda guy.

    But throw him that NTC for losing draws, not being good on the PP, suspect defensive game, below avg penalty killer, etc.
    Expect last year he had better ppg than the year before when he scored 50 points, he does win draws and was our best faceoff guy (25th in the league), he is good on the pp, he sandwiched all this around a significant injury, and he's only 24

  3. #43
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    21,599
    Rep Power
    180
    Well, adjusted ppg don't win you hockey games.

  4. #44
    #MakePetrGreatAgain BSBH Legend
    Phil in Absentia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    82,189
    Rep Power
    366

    Why Zibanejad Absolutely Must Sign Long-Term

    Neither do individual players. Not many, at least. But having young, productive players on good contacts that pay them for years in which history tells us they're likely to be their most productive does help. Certainly more than giving $7M long-term deals to 27- and 28-year olds does.


    Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk
    Hidden Content

    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
    - John Tortorella


    "I've always said, I'd rather tame a tiger than paint stripes on a kitty cat."
    - Dean Lombardi


    "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus, and the feeling that whatever
    you think you’'e bound to be okay, because you're in the safely moral majority."

    - Christopher Hitchens

  5. #45
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    21,599
    Rep Power
    180
    It's not like we are talking about a game breaker.

    Paying 2m more than you should, doesn't make him better. And it hurts the team.

    We didn't trade away 2 better centers so this guy can make too much...

  6. #46
    #MakePetrGreatAgain BSBH Legend
    Phil in Absentia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    82,189
    Rep Power
    366
    The fact you think he's worth $3M puts us too far apart to honestly debate this. Your valuation isn't rooted in reality IMO. It's like you're using the value attributed to players like him in 2006 and pretending the market hasn't changed or evolved since.


    Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk
    Hidden Content

    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
    - John Tortorella


    "I've always said, I'd rather tame a tiger than paint stripes on a kitty cat."
    - Dean Lombardi


    "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus, and the feeling that whatever
    you think you’'e bound to be okay, because you're in the safely moral majority."

    - Christopher Hitchens

  7. #47
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    21,599
    Rep Power
    180
    "the fact"

    jesus fuck phil. Get your shit together.

  8. #48
    Coaching Fail Pee-Wee Division GordonGecko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    711
    Rep Power
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    The fact you think he's worth $3M
    someone thinks he's worth 3?


    would be nice, but his market value is 5.0-5.5 AAV over 4-6 years

  9. #49
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    21,599
    Rep Power
    180
    Whens the last time a player the Rangers signed long-term finished out their contract with them?

  10. #50
    #MakePetrGreatAgain BSBH Legend
    Phil in Absentia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    82,189
    Rep Power
    366
    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    It's not like we are talking about a game breaker.

    Paying 2m more than you should, doesn't make him better. And it hurts the team.

    We didn't trade away 2 better centers so this guy can make too much...
    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    "the fact"

    jesus fuck phil. Get your shit together.
    Considering we're talking about giving him $5M per season, there's nothing for me to get in order. And if we go off more conservative estimates, it means you think he's worth as low as, what, $2.75M?
    Hidden Content

    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
    - John Tortorella


    "I've always said, I'd rather tame a tiger than paint stripes on a kitty cat."
    - Dean Lombardi


    "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus, and the feeling that whatever
    you think you’'e bound to be okay, because you're in the safely moral majority."

    - Christopher Hitchens

  11. #51
    #MakePetrGreatAgain BSBH Legend
    Phil in Absentia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    82,189
    Rep Power
    366
    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Whens the last time a player the Rangers signed long-term finished out their contract with them?
    When's the last time the Rangers signed one through his prime years instead of bridging him to the point of having to buy multiple years well into his thirties?
    Hidden Content

    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
    - John Tortorella


    "I've always said, I'd rather tame a tiger than paint stripes on a kitty cat."
    - Dean Lombardi


    "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus, and the feeling that whatever
    you think you’'e bound to be okay, because you're in the safely moral majority."

    - Christopher Hitchens

  12. #52
    Senior Member Bantam Division
    Long live the King's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    1,077
    Rep Power
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Whens the last time a player the Rangers signed long-term finished out their contract with them?
    A) Why does it matter if they finish the contract here or get traded?

    B) Ryan McDonagh

  13. #53
    #MakePetrGreatAgain BSBH Legend
    Phil in Absentia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    82,189
    Rep Power
    366
    Because Josh appears to be arguing that long-term deals aren't good by citing long-term deals of recent players, like Stepan, who the Rangers could have had on an identical contract to McDonagh, but who instead they bridged to hell ending up having to pay full market price, plus full NMC, just to keep him here.

    Which is exactly my argument for signing these guys early. Not waiting for them to "prove it". You have to work from some level of faith/expectation. I'd rather sign Brady Skjei now, for example, for the next eight years at like $4.5M than wait for him to "prove it" and have to give him $6.5M for eight years two years from now when he'll be carried later into his thirties.
    Hidden Content

    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
    - John Tortorella


    "I've always said, I'd rather tame a tiger than paint stripes on a kitty cat."
    - Dean Lombardi


    "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus, and the feeling that whatever
    you think you’'e bound to be okay, because you're in the safely moral majority."

    - Christopher Hitchens

  14. #54
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    21,599
    Rep Power
    180
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Considering we're talking about giving him $5M per season, there's nothing for me to get in order. And if we go off more conservative estimates, it means you think he's worth as low as, what, $2.75M?
    There's literally 1 post mentioning 5m. most is banter about why they should pay him well over that, and for a very long time. Throughout the forum there are people talking about 6, 6.5m...
    yes, thats 2m more than what we should be paying him. Based on your suggestion of 4.7, youre much closer to my number... so i dont understand where you get these "facts" from.

    I'd rather see a 1/2 year deal, let him earn his salary, then pay accordingly. We CANT pay for what we want, in the form of a guy thats not that... again.

    Throwing this money at an unproven 2nd line center (that will be thrust into a much more challenging role this winter) is a short-sighted, panic move. We've continued to see every player get an additional 1m on top of what they should get... and it only compounds the issue when that player goes to re-sign

  15. #55
    #MakePetrGreatAgain BSBH Legend
    Phil in Absentia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    82,189
    Rep Power
    366
    I have no idea who is talking about $6 or $6.5M, but he's not close to that, IMO. But let's cut through the static. I argue in the article in the OP that his value is right around $5.1M per. You're probably closer to what, $4.5M? I don't want to put words or figures in your mouth, so you tell me.

    As to your one-to-two year deal, see above posts. You doing so just means you're reliving Derek Stepan, who the org made the same call on. It cost them to the tune of $6.5M and a full No-Move Clause they had to deal him to get out ahead of instead of recognizing the potential he was showing by giving him a mirror contract to McDonagh.

    If you always wait to buy a proven product, you're going to be paying through the nose every time, because it means you'll be waiting for most players to find a level of consistency they tend to hit around the age of 25-27, right before, or right at Unrestricted Free Agency.
    Hidden Content

    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
    - John Tortorella


    "I've always said, I'd rather tame a tiger than paint stripes on a kitty cat."
    - Dean Lombardi


    "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus, and the feeling that whatever
    you think you’'e bound to be okay, because you're in the safely moral majority."

    - Christopher Hitchens

  16. #56
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    21,599
    Rep Power
    180
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Because Josh appears to be arguing that long-term deals aren't good by citing long-term deals of recent players, like Stepan, who the Rangers could have had on an identical contract to McDonagh, but who instead they bridged to hell ending up having to pay full market price, plus full NMC, just to keep him here.

    Which is exactly my argument for signing these guys early. Not waiting for them to "prove it". You have to work from some level of faith/expectation. I'd rather sign Brady Skjei now, for example, for the next eight years at like $4.5M than wait for him to "prove it" and have to give him $6.5M for eight years two years from now when he'll be carried later into his thirties.
    So you think Stepan would have been a better player if we didnt bridge him?


    It's not a 1-size fits all. If you are talking about a 2nd line, replaceable center that played half a season here... yeah, you look to bridge.

  17. #57
    #MakePetrGreatAgain BSBH Legend
    Phil in Absentia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    82,189
    Rep Power
    366
    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    So you think Stepan would have been a better player if we didnt bridge him?


    It's not a 1-size fits all. If you are talking about a 2nd line, replaceable center that played half a season here... yeah, you look to bridge.
    I think Stepan would have been the same player he became, except he'd cost nearly $2M less and might even still be here today had they not played hardball and bridged him.
    Hidden Content

    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
    - John Tortorella


    "I've always said, I'd rather tame a tiger than paint stripes on a kitty cat."
    - Dean Lombardi


    "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus, and the feeling that whatever
    you think you’'e bound to be okay, because you're in the safely moral majority."

    - Christopher Hitchens

  18. #58
    List Maker BSBH Rookie
    josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    21,599
    Rep Power
    180
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    I think Stepan would have been the same player he became, except he'd cost nearly $2M less and might even still be here today had they not played hardball and bridged him.
    Stepan significantly regressed in his offensive play after his third contract. The play was a bigger issue than the cap hit.
    He put up almost a ppg (lockout season) before signing his bridge deal. Next contract year put up 57 in 68.

    Then... he became the first line center. 53 pts, 55pts.



    Would Stepan still be here, as the first line center, making 5-5.5m per?

  19. #59
    a.k.a.Phildagoalie Junior Division
    Respecttheblue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    N.Y.
    Posts
    9,438
    Rep Power
    79
    I may need a seeing eye dog (and missed this) but here's uncle Larry's take

    Headline: Why Rangers shortchanged Zibanejad in arbitration ask

    Mika Zibanejad’s ask for $5.35 million would be pretty well within the parameters of precedent if that number was attached to a four- or five-year deal.

    Detroit’s Tomas Tatar signed for $5.3 million per for four years while surrendering three seasons of unrestricted free agency. Tampa Bay’s Tyler Johnson gave up six seasons of unrestricted free agency in signing a seven-year deal worth $5M per while teammate Ondrej Palat surrendered four seasons of unrestricted free agency with his recent five-year contract for $5.3M per. And a year ago, Brayden Schenn signed a four-year deal worth $5.125M per in yielding two seasons of unrestricted free agency.

    All would be more or less statistical comparables to Zibanejad, who has recorded 188 points (78-110) in 337 games over five NHL seasons, including last year’s injury-interrupted 37-point output (14-23) in 56

    Gorton is expected to meet with Zibanejad and his agent, Monir Kalgoum, prior to the hearing in an attempt to hammer out a multi-year deal for the club’s projected first-line center that presumably would come in at the $5.25-$5.5 million neighborhood.

    http://nypost.com/2017/07/24/why-ran...bitration-ask/
    Brooks goes on to say the last 15 of 15 cases were settled within a few hours of going to arbitration and he expects the same this time. As did the Red Wings and Tatar.
    And if Brook's $$ range is what it ends up being, I see no problem with it, even at 5.5. But please ... no NMC.


    BTW he added

    The Rangers will have a 48-hour buyout window following settlement of the Zibanejad case that will resolve Marc Staal’s immediate fate.
    Last edited by Respecttheblue; 07-24-2017 at 09:23 PM.
    If n ya gots jowls, they might as well be furry ones.

  20. #60
    #MakePetrGreatAgain BSBH Legend
    Phil in Absentia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    82,189
    Rep Power
    366
    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Stepan significantly regressed in his offensive play after his third contract. The play was a bigger issue than the cap hit.
    He put up almost a ppg (lockout season) before signing his bridge deal. Next contract year put up 57 in 68.

    Then... he became the first line center. 53 pts, 55pts.



    Would Stepan still be here, as the first line center, making 5-5.5m per?
    2010-13 was his ELC. 0.55 (45 in 82), 0.62 (51 in 82), 0.92 (44 in 48) P/GP in those years.

    They bridged him for 2013-14 to 2014-15 in which he went 0.70 (57 in 82) and 0.81 (55 in 68). Then had to go long-term at $6.5M specifically because of that bridge. Even if you throw out the third lockout shortened season from his ELC, the progression is real.

    0.55, 0.62, 0.70, 0.81.

    Zibanejad has shown similar year-to-year progression and has improved his P/GP pace in every season he’s been in the league.

    So, what would you rather do here? Sign him to or push for a two-year award in arbitration so your next negotiation buys just one year of RFA and ALL UFA years otherwise, at full market value, just like Stepan, or recognize that a 24-year old stands to be far more productive from 24-28 by giving him at least a four-year extension now at a much more affordable number?

    In short, $5.25M (let's say) for the next four, or $4M and change for the next two followed by a six- or seven-year deal worth $6.5-7M with a full No Move Clause from 26-32/33?
    Hidden Content

    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
    - John Tortorella


    "I've always said, I'd rather tame a tiger than paint stripes on a kitty cat."
    - Dean Lombardi


    "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus, and the feeling that whatever
    you think you’'e bound to be okay, because you're in the safely moral majority."

    - Christopher Hitchens

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •