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Thread: HBO's 'Westworld'

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      Spoiler: {option} 
    It would require rewatching, but almost every time some TV show or movie does multiple time lines or realities, there is a concrete way to tell them apart. Different filming techniques, something that's always present in each timeline, a reoccuring color, or something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JOHN View Post
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    The rape is just inferred, we don't know that to be the case. The Man In Black never shows any interest in sex in the park, like William, and uses traumatic events to trigger events within the hosts.

    The whole cast may be hosts, that's very possible. But I don't think it debunks any time line theory. One thing to also note, the W in West World is different in William's visit than the present day/MIB's visit.
      Spoiler: {option} 
    MIBs personality is totally different. He's a dark character while William is the traditional nice guy. Re watching the first episode MIB also slaps Delores around before the implied rape, which I think is shown a little bit more in depth in another episode..

    in watching the first episode it's strange.. Why is Teddy on the train with the guests as they arrive? Did he escape the map? Maybe there's a timeline shift THERE, because Teddy is keeping his promise to Delores of coming back.. We don't know where he's coming back from, again he is on the train from the outside world. He's been out.. Is he connected to William? Is/was that in world storyline based on William and Delores' Westworld adventure? Is Ford making characters based on guests, to make them more realistic? And taking their story and adapting it to his world??

    If there ARE different time lines, maybe MIB is Logan?? And he's constantly trying to get as far as William did? Maybe William died? I don't recall MIB, Logan, William and Teddy together in one episode. Anywho, I think it's deeper than different time lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
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    MIBs personality is totally different. He's a dark character while William is the traditional nice guy. Re watching the first episode MIB also slaps Delores around before the implied rape, which I think is shown a little bit more in depth in another episode..

    in watching the first episode it's strange.. Why is Teddy on the train with the guests as they arrive? Did he escape the map? Maybe there's a timeline shift THERE, because Teddy is keeping his promise to Delores of coming back.. We don't know where he's coming back from, again he is on the train from the outside world. He's been out.. Is he connected to William? Is/was that in world storyline based on William and Delores' Westworld adventure? Is Ford making characters based on guests, to make them more realistic? And taking their story and adapting it to his world??

    If there ARE different time lines, maybe MIB is Logan?? And he's constantly trying to get as far as William did? Maybe William died? I don't recall MIB, Logan, William and Teddy together in one episode. Anywho, I think it's deeper than different time lines.
      Spoiler: {option} 
    As William goes deeper into the park, he becomes darker. He won't kill anyone, until he does, and he finds out he likes it. And he doesn't fuck until he does, and he likes Dolores. He's actually infatuated with her compared to his fiancé, and infatuated with the park as a whole. We learned that last episode. This is a plausible path that takes him to the point of being the MiB. You can clearly see time shifts when you have his theory in mind and rewatch. It makes perfect sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
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    MIBs personality is totally different. He's a dark character while William is the traditional nice guy. Re watching the first episode MIB also slaps Delores around before the implied rape, which I think is shown a little bit more in depth in another episode..

    in watching the first episode it's strange.. Why is Teddy on the train with the guests as they arrive? Did he escape the map? Maybe there's a timeline shift THERE, because Teddy is keeping his promise to Delores of coming back.. We don't know where he's coming back from, again he is on the train from the outside world. He's been out.. Is he connected to William? Is/was that in world storyline based on William and Delores' Westworld adventure? Is Ford making characters based on guests, to make them more realistic? And taking their story and adapting it to his world??

    If there ARE different time lines, maybe MIB is Logan?? And he's constantly trying to get as far as William did? Maybe William died? I don't recall MIB, Logan, William and Teddy together in one episode. Anywho, I think it's deeper than different time lines.
      Spoiler: {option} 
    The train is just where Teddy is programmed to start. He starts on the train multiple times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
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    The train is just where Teddy is programmed to start. He starts on the train multiple times.
    Ahhh. Never noticed. Have to rewatch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JOHN View Post
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    As William goes deeper into the park, he becomes darker. He won't kill anyone, until he does, and he finds out he likes it. And he doesn't fuck until he does, and he likes Dolores. He's actually infatuated with her compared to his fiancé, and infatuated with the park as a whole. We learned that last episode. This is a plausible path that takes him to the point of being the MiB. You can clearly see time shifts when you have his theory in mind and rewatch. It makes perfect sense.
      Spoiler: {option} 
    I don't get the feeling he LIKES killing at all. He likes Delores and how Westworld makes him invincible as compared to being a worm in the real world. He feels safe and no pressure. I just think MIB is a totally different kind of person than William. Attitude wise and how he carries himself. In the real world MIB sounds like a successful person, where as William suggested that he's quite the ordinary schmoe.. Unless he does some crazy drastic flip on personality in real life, I don't see a connection. Guess we will see.

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    HBO's 'Westworld'

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
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    I don't get the feeling he LIKES killing at all. He likes Delores and how Westworld makes him invincible as compared to being a worm in the real world. He feels safe and no pressure. I just think MIB is a totally different kind of person than William. Attitude wise and how he carries himself. In the real world MIB sounds like a successful person, where as William suggested that he's quite the ordinary schmoe.. Unless he does some crazy drastic flip on personality in real life, I don't see a connection. Guess we will see.
      Spoiler: {option} 
    MIB has been coming to the park for 30 years. Each "visit" to the park has a maxium of 28 days, I believe. It's not quite clear how long William has been in the park during this first visito, but we've already seen a significant change in him. If he were to continue to go to the park regularly over 30 years, there's no telling where he might end up personality-wise. And that will no doubt bleed into his real life persona. Also, it's hinted that the MIB is some sort of Philanthrapist in his real life. That would kind of meld with William's personality.
    Last edited by JOHN; 11-18-2016 at 06:58 PM.
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    I buy the MiB being Logan more than William. I think the Dude is spot on. He's trying to get to where William got.

    Also he makes a reference to his company buying Westworld... Maybe that's why the staff says he can do whatever he wants.

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    Two trains of thought I'm on here...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
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    MIBs personality is totally different. He's a dark character while William is the traditional nice guy. Re watching the first episode MIB also slaps Delores around before the implied rape, which I think is shown a little bit more in depth in another episode..

    in watching the first episode it's strange.. Why is Teddy on the train with the guests as they arrive? Did he escape the map? Maybe there's a timeline shift THERE, because Teddy is keeping his promise to Delores of coming back.. We don't know where he's coming back from, again he is on the train from the outside world. He's been out.. Is he connected to William? Is/was that in world storyline based on William and Delores' Westworld adventure? Is Ford making characters based on guests, to make them more realistic? And taking their story and adapting it to his world??

    If there ARE different time lines, maybe MIB is Logan?? And he's constantly trying to get as far as William did? Maybe William died? I don't recall MIB, Logan, William and Teddy together in one episode. Anywho, I think it's deeper than different time lines.
      Spoiler: {option} 
    We are starting to see this shift in William though. He was once the nice guy, but he's now full on in love with Dolores instead of the woman he's going to marry, he feels alive since the adventure became insane and he's repeatedly killed. Also, when she is trying to be compassionate with the young Confederado boy on the shore, he just wants to move on and it's implied he chokes him out. No consoling, no water, he strangles him. There's also the notion that his family in the real world doesn't know who he became in Westworld, that he was always kind in the real world and almost played a role there. Logan seems like a real asshole and there's no hints that he has a family anywhere. It's been thirty years (and we knew that already) since Arnold's accident and the start of the park and no coincidence, MiB mentions 30 years of marriage and we know William tells Dolores he will soon be married after leaving Westworld.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    I buy the MiB being Logan more than William. I think the Dude is spot on. He's trying to get to where William got.

    Also he makes a reference to his company buying Westworld... Maybe that's why the staff says he can do whatever he wants.
      Spoiler: {option} 
    He mentions their company, but it's his father's business and therefore it's also William's father-in-law and eventually his wife's business. If something bad happens to Logan in the next episodes and MiB's wife inherits the park and kills herself, that makes MiB the major shareholder of the park over anyone else we know. Also, Logan did not interact with the blonde host who checked William and Logan into the park in episode 2. That same host is the blonde woman who ends up being part of Wyatt's gang in the final scene of last night's episode. He encounters her and quips that he thought she'd be long retired, but that Ford never wants to waste a pretty face. He remembers her from an interaction implied to be in the distant past and we already know the only character in the show to have actually interacted with her was William. I felt like that solidified the idea that MiB is William, not Logan.
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    Idk what the deal is, but the finale of this season better be fucking awesome because adding layer after layer after layer is making me lose interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Idk what the deal is, but the finale of this season better be fucking awesome because adding layer after layer after layer is making me lose interest.
    They certainly are dragging it along. There's enough character depth. Now go somewhere with this. I can't see this going past three seasons.

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    Typical HBO penultimate episode. Ties up a bunch of loose ends and then allows the finale to take one last step before setting up the next season.

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    Of course, the major loose ends went right where it was expected that they would. Some nice little twists to them, but now we're just left to see who Wyatt is. My guess, Teddy is Wyatt and Wyatt was designed to be the Host version of Logan, who William kills in the park (what happens in the park stays in the park). Perhaps William/MiB and Ford come to some sort of arrangement/blackmail where William agrees to save the park once he marries Logan's sister in exchance for making Logan's death seem like an accident. This is "the incident" 30 years ago. They haven't 100% confirmed William/MiB but it's 95% there. I guess there's a small chance Wyatt is "William" meaning a Host created in William's image, so then MiB is facing himself at the end. That would give viewers a last moment where they think William/MiB aren't the same person, before realizing they are.

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      Spoiler: {option} 
    So can someone explain how no one in the show knows that Bernard was made in Arnold's image? I get that Arnold might have been secretive but he was obviously around for the start of the park and he is one of the creators of the hosts, people would have known what he looked like even if the scene with Dolores going below the church is ment to signify that the original park employees all got locked down there and died. The guy is the primary inventor of one of the craziest techs on the planet, no matter how secret he was trying to stay someone there would know what he looked like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Typical HBO penultimate episode. Ties up a bunch of loose ends and then allows the finale to take one last step before setting up the next season.

      Spoiler: {option} 
    Of course, the major loose ends went right where it was expected that they would. Some nice little twists to them, but now we're just left to see who Wyatt is. My guess, Teddy is Wyatt and Wyatt was designed to be the Host version of Logan, who William kills in the park (what happens in the park stays in the park). Perhaps William/MiB and Ford come to some sort of arrangement/blackmail where William agrees to save the park once he marries Logan's sister in exchance for making Logan's death seem like an accident. This is "the incident" 30 years ago. They haven't 100% confirmed William/MiB but it's 95% there. I guess there's a small chance Wyatt is "William" meaning a Host created in William's image, so then MiB is facing himself at the end. That would give viewers a last moment where they think William/MiB aren't the same person, before realizing they are.
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    I'm still not convinced at all that MiB is William.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mentosman42 View Post
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    So can someone explain how no one in the show knows that Bernard was made in Arnold's image? I get that Arnold might have been secretive but he was obviously around for the start of the park and he is one of the creators of the hosts, people would have known what he looked like even if the scene with Dolores going below the church is ment to signify that the original park employees all got locked down there and died. The guy is the primary inventor of one of the craziest techs on the planet, no matter how secret he was trying to stay someone there would know what he looked like.
    When Logan is talking to William, he mentions the history of the creators of the park. He tells William the rumor is it was created by a partnership, but the one partner killed himself and that he doesn't even know the partners' name. That's when he mentions that his family's business is considering bailing out the failing park. William says that they must have a team of lawyers working on it and Logan says that they haven't even turned up a name or a photograph. So it seems like Arnold was a mystery to the world while maybe Ford was the public face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    I'm still not convinced at all that MiB is William.
    Me neither.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mentosman42 View Post
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    So can someone explain how no one in the show knows that Bernard was made in Arnold's image? I get that Arnold might have been secretive but he was obviously around for the start of the park and he is one of the creators of the hosts, people would have known what he looked like even if the scene with Dolores going below the church is ment to signify that the original park employees all got locked down there and died. The guy is the primary inventor of one of the craziest techs on the planet, no matter how secret he was trying to stay someone there would know what he looked like.
      Spoiler: {option} 
    Depending on how the timelines work, it's possible that nobody who works there "now" even knows who Arnold is and that every time we've seen Bernard talking to Dolores, it was in the past as Arnold, until this episode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    I'm still not convinced at all that MiB is William.
      Spoiler: {option} 
    Yeah, I'm not sold. Especially considering that in the last scene we see Delores meet the MIB at the church, in her supposed older "William time frame" clothing, and not the blue dress. It's too simple for it to be that. I'm still going with Teddy being a character based on William. Trying to figure out if Stubbs is a host. Because that could be a link to William/MIB, as the MIB was granted his pyrotechnics by Stubbs, at what looks like the same time he checks out what William is doing. The bone tomahawk native types are a key here too.

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    Here's a pretty good write up on the story telling craft behind Westworld, and it is as unkind as it is accurate:

    http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/1/13...e-theories-hbo

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Here's a pretty good write up on the story telling craft behind Westworld, and it is as unkind as it is accurate:

    http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/1/13...e-theories-hbo
    Nice find, I think this is the important paragraph in it:
    Westworld’s infatuation with mystery has kept its creators from answering the basic questions on which drama is constructed. Who are the people in this story? What are their motives? Why should we care about them?
    There's no "rooting interest" so to speak now, because we don't know who/what is real. That makes a show incredibly boring while being so mysterious.

    The multiple timelines route that they went - same as Man in the High Castle - is just extremely lazy storytelling to me. If you can't make a linear plot, then you really have no plot at all. Confusing the reader/viewer about where they actually are and who/what they're watching is a cheap trick.

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