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Thread: Police Shoot, Kill Oklahoma Man With His Hands Up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Iraq and Tulsa are very different places.

    A guy with his back to you walking away with his hands above his head is not enough direct threat to use deadly force.
    I'm not saying they're the same but my point remains the same. Its easy to judge when we're safe behind a keyboard instead of on the scene. It looks like an awfully bad situation for those cops but I am not there with them to completely judge. More times than not these situations end up being justified for the cops once the full investigation is completed. She's already being charged with 1st degree manslaughter so it doesn't look like this one will end up that way.
    Last edited by SaveByRichter35; 09-22-2016 at 06:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Iraq and Tulsa are very different places.

    A guy with his back to you walking away with his hands above his head is not enough direct threat to use deadly force.
    I suspect that this is the point that will be dissected as the case against the officer moves forward. Was he proceeding towards the car against officer instructions? Was he reaching into the car? Was he tased, then go to the ground and then shot? A lot of questions that need answers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    There are plenty of black people who are arrested with guns on them and they aren't shot. There are plenty of white people that are shot by cops and killed with guns. You can't compare shootings because each one is different. John Allen Muhammad and Lee Malvo, the DC snipers were both taken into custody and not shot and killed, and both were black.

    And that site really isn't the best site to use because they are very slanted in one way. Its relevant when they are using cases where the perps had BB Guns instead of real firearms. Black men are arrested on almost a daily basis with firearms here in NYC, and 99 percent aren't shot, so that theory really doesn't hold up.

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    I think she messed up here. IMO, I think she heard the pop of the taser and she fired thinking it was a gun shot. Again, thats just my opinion and Im not giving her a pass on it, but there is more to this story than we all know. There has to be a reason why she had her gun out to begin with, and thats what we need to know. I wish there was audio as well on that dash cam, which would give us a little bit better of an understanding of what went on before he is shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    There are plenty of black people who are arrested with guns on them and they aren't shot. There are plenty of white people that are shot by cops and killed with guns. You can't compare shootings because each one is different. John Allen Muhammad and Lee Malvo, the DC snipers were both taken into custody and not shot and killed, and both were black.

    And that site really isn't the best site to use because they are very slanted in one way. Its relevant when they are using cases where the perps had BB Guns instead of real firearms. Black men are arrested on almost a daily basis with firearms here in NYC, and 99 percent aren't shot, so that theory really doesn't hold up.
    Guys... There's a problem. Please stop ignoring it.
    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    I think she messed up here. IMO, I think she heard the pop of the taser and she fired thinking it was a gun shot. Again, thats just my opinion and Im not giving her a pass on it, but there is more to this story than we all know. There has to be a reason why she had her gun out to begin with, and thats what we need to know. I wish there was audio as well on that dash cam, which would give us a little bit better of an understanding of what went on before he is shot.
    Thank you for admitting there might have been a mistake. I'm not being and asshole either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Guys... There's a problem. Please stop ignoring it.
    Im not ignoring it, and I have said numerous times there is a problem, but lets not pretend that its one sided. One of the main issues is that instead of looking ta the facts in any of these incidents, the only thing people look at is that its a cop shooting a black man. Charlotte is the perfect example. Numerous witnesses have said that the guy had a gun and that the cops told him numerous times to drop the gun and he didn't, yet look at what they are doing there. Until we can admit as a society that there is a problem with the public as well as the cops, nothing will get solved.

    Thank you for admitting there might have been a mistake. I'm not being and asshole either.
    Usually when someone says this, they usually mean the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    Im not ignoring it, and I have said numerous times there is a problem, but lets not pretend that its one sided. One of the main issues is that instead of looking ta the facts in any of these incidents, the only thing people look at is that its a cop shooting a black man. Charlotte is the perfect example. Numerous witnesses have said that the guy had a gun and that the cops told him numerous times to drop the gun and he didn't, yet look at what they are doing there. Until we can admit as a society that there is a problem with the public as well as the cops, nothing will get solved.



    Usually when someone says this, they usually mean the opposite.
    Awesome job. This is where I check out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Guys... There's a problem. Please stop ignoring it.

    Thank you for admitting there might have been a mistake. I'm not being and asshole either.
    When something is done wrong by the cops I truly believe that they should be prosecuted the way that a criminal would. But the system has to be trusted and can't lead to what happened in Charlotte or Baton Rouge or any one of the number of places where officers acted the way that they had to and riots still persisted. My biggest problem with the argument that you are supporting is that blacks kill blacks (outside of law enforcement) at a terrifying rate. Why aren't they doing anything to fix this real problem? And solutions to fix these problems in the inner cities, with aggressive enforcement, is also criticized and fought against by these same people that are protesting for the BLM movement. So what is it? Black lives only matter if it's taken by a law enforcement officer? Black lives don't matter anymore if they kill themselves?

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    You're talking about two different issues that blacks suffer from simultaneously. BLM is about racism, bigotry, and what are perceived to be wrongful police shootings based on data that does indicate that blacks are killed by police at a much higher rate than other races.

    Black people are much more likely to be killed by police than their white peers



    An analysis of the available FBI data by Vox’s Dara Lind shows that US police kill black people at disproportionate rates: They accounted for 31 percent of police killing victims in 2012, even though they made up just 13 percent of the US population. Although the data is incomplete, since it’s based on voluntary reports from police agencies around the country, it highlights the vast disparities in how police use force.

    Black teens were 21 times as likely as white teens to be shot and killed by police between 2010 and 2012, according to a ProPublica analysis of the FBI data. ProPublica’s Ryan Gabrielson, Ryann Grochowski Jones, and Eric Sagara reported: "One way of appreciating that stark disparity, ProPublica’s analysis shows, is to calculate how many more whites over those three years would have had to have been killed for them to have been at equal risk. The number is jarring — 185, more than one per week."
    One reason to believe racial bias is a factor: Studies show that officers are quicker to shoot black suspects in video game simulations. Josh Correll, a University of Colorado Boulder psychology professor who conducted the research, said it’s possible the bias could lead to even more skewed outcomes in the field. "In the very situation in which [officers] most need their training," he said, "we have some reason to believe that their training will be most likely to fail them."

    Part of the solution to potential bias is better training that helps cops acknowledge and deal with their potential subconscious prejudices. But critics also argue that more accountability could help deter future brutality or excessive use of force, since it would make it clear that there are consequences to the misuse and abuse of police powers. Yet right now, lax legal standards make it difficult to legally punish individual police officers for use of force, even when it might be excessive.
    http://www.vox.com/2016/9/19/1298123...shooting-video
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    You're talking about two different issues that blacks suffer from simultaneously. BLM is about racism, bigotry, and what are perceived to be wrongful police shootings based on data that does indicate that blacks are killed by police at a much higher rate than other races.





    http://www.vox.com/2016/9/19/1298123...shooting-video
    And if I post crime numbers by race that would be considered unjust because the system is stacked against them? The one-sidedness of this argument is tiresome. Nothing done by any of these black victims protested by BLM led to them being in that situation...

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    The system is stacked against them. The data indicates it. They are killed more by police than any other race, they were enslaved for hundreds of years, legally, considered less than human by our Constitution (Three-Fifths), and suffered horrendously under Jim Crow. Racism never died in this country. It evolved.

    It's not about being one-sided or not. I have no love lost for BLM, but I agree with their principle message. Because black lives do matter. Colloquially all lives matter, but all lives are not being killed, destroyed, and disrupted with the frequency black ones are. Hence the operative word — matter. As opposed to don't matter. Which is what this country, by and large, has believed for centuries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    The system is stacked against them. The data indicates it. They are killed more by police than any other race, they were enslaved for hundreds of years, legally, considered less than human by our Constitution (Three-Fifths), and suffered horrendously under Jim Crow. Racism never died in this country. It evolved.

    It's not about being one-sided or not. I have no love lost for BLM, but I agree with their principle message. Because black lives do matter. All lives also matter, but all lives are not being killed with the frequency black ones are. Hence the operative word — matter. As opposed to don't. Which is what this country, by and large, has believed for centuries.
    But we're still capable of voting in a black president and then re-upping him. We also have a black attorney general. I'm not going to suggest that racism doesn't exist but we've been able to get past the worst of it that allows us to vote in a black man for president. I know, I know...that argument is tired too but it still is true.

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    The same president that had to release his birth certificate because so many people were buying into the birther con?
    ___________LETS GO RANGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mentosman42 View Post
    The same president that had to release his birth certificate because so many people were buying into the birther con?
    He's still the president, right?

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    You do realize he had 51% of the vote and not like 80% right?
    ___________LETS GO RANGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mentosman42 View Post
    You do realize he had 51% of the vote and not like 80% right?
    And that's going to be the case this time too between a white guy and a white female. Will that mean that 49% of our nation is sexist? Or 49% don't like old white guys? You're going down a road that really has nothing to do with this thread.

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    Well see thats the thing, I am not the one that took the left down this road, I am not the one trying to argue that because 51% of people voted for him racism isnt a problem because minorities have made it "past the worst of it".


    The point was, a ~3% voter majority isnt convincing proof.
    Last edited by Mentosman42; 09-22-2016 at 11:05 PM.
    ___________LETS GO RANGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    But we're still capable of voting in a black president and then re-upping him. We also have a black attorney general. I'm not going to suggest that racism doesn't exist but we've been able to get past the worst of it that allows us to vote in a black man for president. I know, I know...that argument is tired too but it still is true.
    An iconic moment in history, no doubt, but that doesn't erase the data. If a company has a long tenured history of sexual harassment against women and sexism against them and they hire a female CEO, that doesn't change history or absolve those sins.

    It's going to take generations to cure this problem, but it starts by acknowledging there actually is one to begin with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    You're talking about two different issues that blacks suffer from simultaneously. BLM is about racism, bigotry, and what are perceived to be wrongful police shootings based on data that does indicate that blacks are killed by police at a much higher rate than other races.





    http://www.vox.com/2016/9/19/1298123...shooting-video
    I highly disagree with this. BLM is about being anti-police and abolishing the police. They don't care about facts, just the race of a person, which is what is adding to the problems, not helping to fix them. They were founded on a lie because they didn't want to listen to the facts, and still ignore the actual facts of each case. Look at Charlotte right now, perfect example where you have numerous witnesses saying that they guy had a gun, not a book like they are telling everyone, and that the police gave him numerous commands to drop the gun, and e didn't and in fact kept advancing towards them with the gun. They are also far from being against sexism, and in fact, one of their main founders/leaders was arrested over the summer for sex trafficking women and kidnapping them for it. If they really did car about black lives like they claim, they would be in Chicago trying to help police curb the murders that occur there on almost a daily basis.

    As for the disproportionate rates, thats fine to use it for when cops shoot and kill black people, but then you need to use this same chart in all aspects of this conversation. Which race has the highest level of crime, especially gun crime? You also can use this math to compare the number of cops that shoot and kill anyone to the number of cops who don't, as well as compare it to the sheer number of interactions daily between cops and the public, and my guess would be that that number is less than 1%(I suck at math, so thats why I am not even trying to do the actual calculations.) Like I said earlier, there are tons of stops where a black person has a gun on them and isn't shot and are arrested without incident, this I can tell you first hand because I deal with these guns on an almost daily basis.

    Are there issues between cops and the public, yes there are. But again, like I said earlier, until we can admit that the public needs to change as well, this is never going to be fixed. Both sides need to be fixed, its not just the cops that need to change. Both need to work together to get rid of the bad elements in society. Its a two way street.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mentosman42 View Post
    You do realize he had 51% of the vote and not like 80% right?
    This is a reach here because what President in recent times has won by a landslide? Every election is close like that, doesn't matter who the candidate is. Do you think this election is going to be much different?

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