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Thread: Police Shoot, Kill Oklahoma Man With His Hands Up

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    That's flat out victim blaming.

    Flirty girls wouldn't get raped if they weren't flirty...
    Is it? I think its just looking at it through a different lens.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    Is it? I think its just looking at it through a different lens.
    Agree to disagree.

  3. #23
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    It's important in these situations to wait for facts. The video is a fact, no doubt. But it's not the only facts. That's because the video lacks all the audio we need. It lacks context. It also does not show everything. At times the video is obstructed.

    My initial reaction is the same as most, this looks terrible. Like murder. But there are multiple sides to this story.

    Here's the officer that shot's side of the story:

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-polic...ry?id=42243843

    I'm not going to quote it, because the majority of the article is a narrative of what she says her experience was, so clips out of context won't work. If you're interested in some balance, you'll have to read the entire story.

    I don't know if the officers were right here, but this is not as cut and dry as it originally appeared. Something that struck me as odd through my first viewing of the video remains. Here are a bunch of police, weapons aimed, following a man with his hands up as he walks towards his truck.

    I can't think of any reason for this unless he was not following their instruction. They wouldn't point their weapons at him and then order him towards a place where a weapon could be stashed. This seemed like an escalation.

    Then there's this:

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/f...-life-42241028

    Crutcher had been arrested in the past. In 1995 in nearby Osage County, officers said they saw him fire a weapon out a vehicle window. Records show Crutcher was ordered to exit the vehicle for a pat-down search and began making a movement to his right ankle before an officer managed to get control of him. A .25-caliber pistol was found in his right sock, according to an affidavit.
    Court records show officers used force against Crutcher on at least four separate occasions, including a 2012 arrest on public intoxication and obstruction complaints. In that case, an officer used a stun gun on Crutcher twice while he was face down on the ground because the officer said Crutcher didn't comply with at least three orders to show his hands, a police affidavit states. Crutcher's father showed up while he was being arrested and told the officers that his son had "an ongoing problem" with the drug PCP, the affidavit states.
    Two 911 calls before the shooting described an SUV abandoned in the middle of the road. One caller said the vehicle's driver was acting strangely, adding, "I think he's smoking something."

    Sgt. Dave Walker confirmed Tuesday that investigators found a vial of PCP in Crutcher's SUV. A toxicology report could take several weeks.
    So once more, we need to wait and see where the facts take us.

  4. #24
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    Also, lets not forget the officer was on the scene for over a minute before the video starts and the victim wasnt responding to the officers verbal questions and commands. That is an extremely scary and volatile situation if a person continually refuses any commands from an officer with their gun drawn and instead walks back to his or her car.

  5. #25
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    Guys....he was already being tased when he got shot.

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  8. #28
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    I feel like as a whole people have lost the idea that the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle of the stories being told. It seems like everyone involved in this situation made mistakes.
    ___________LETS GO RANGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mentosman42 View Post
    I feel like as a whole people have lost the idea that the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle of the stories being told. It seems like everyone involved in this situation made mistakes.
    100% agreed. What i think the Police did wrong was not retreat to a safe spot instead of putting themselves in a position where they were in the open and allowed the subject to dictate what happened next. Their second mistake though was that they didn't escalate force quick enough. If he was walking back to the car and there eventually were 3-5 officers, he should have been tackled long before he reached the car. I can't really judge though because it's a situation that happens so quickly that there is no way to sit here and say there is one correct vs incorrect form of action. Too many variables.

    The taser though is one of the least effective tools. It won't work if it hits certain clothing, if the clothing is too loose, too thick, too baggy, etc. It has a much less chance of working if the person is on certain drugs, is filled with tons of adrenaline, doesn't make contact in the right place, etc.

    If this turns out that he was tased and it didnt stop him from moving and he then was perceived to continue to reach into the car, what then were the officers going to do? Run away at that point? We don't really know if he was tased and it didnt work or only partially worked.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Guys....he was already being tased when he got shot.
    Pete, the point I'm trying to make isn't whether this was handled correctly or not. To me, given what I know now and assuming all reports are correct, then the best course of action to me would have been tasing, repeatedly if necessary, well before he got to his car. Again, after all that I know, I think the best course of action would be non-lethal electrocution. Because this was clearly not just a straight up execution to me, which is how it was initially painted. But the police seemed to have let the situation get further out of control than it already was.

    As to him being tased and being shot, again, we don't know the exact timing and we don't know the response to being tased.

    Ultimately, if toxicology reports show he had PCP in his system, then it makes the officers' response much more understandable.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Pete, the point I'm trying to make isn't whether this was handled correctly or not. To me, given what I know now and assuming all reports are correct, then the best course of action to me would have been tasing, repeatedly if necessary, well before he got to his car. Again, after all that I know, I think the best course of action would be non-lethal electrocution. Because this was clearly not just a straight up execution to me, which is how it was initially painted. But the police seemed to have let the situation get further out of control than it already was.

    As to him being tased and being shot, again, we don't know the exact timing and we don't know the response to being tased.

    Ultimately, if toxicology reports show he had PCP in his system, then it makes the officers' response much more understandable.
    A guy walking to his car is not a direct threat.

    The shot fired was premature. Itchy trigger finger.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    A guy walking to his car is not a direct threat.

    The shot fired was premature. Itchy trigger finger.
    Oh yes he is. A guy refusing commands walking back to his car even at gunpoint is 100% a direct threat.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    Oh yes he is. A guy refusing commands walking back to his car even at gunpoint is 100% a direct threat.
    Yea, I'm not buying that. If a cop is threatened enough to use lethal force one a person without a weapon, then I'd question his judgement. Again, he was already being tased. Why did one cop feel secure enough to tase, but the other felt the need to use a gun?

    But let's say I did buy it...I'm having a hard time justifying how a black guy walking towards his car with his hands up is threatening enough to get tased and shot...But a white dude waving a gun threatening to kill everyone makes it out unscathed.

    I think you can justify a handful of instances, but it's not a handful. It's a pattern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Yea, I'm not buying that. If a cop is threatened enough to use lethal force one a person without a weapon, then I'd question his judgement. Again, he was already being tased. Why did one cop feel secure enough to tase, but the other felt the need to use a gun?

    But let's say I did buy it...I'm having a hard time justifying how a black guy walking towards his car with his hands up is threatening enough to get tased and shot...But a white dude waving a gun threatening to kill everyone makes it out unscathed.

    I think you can justify a handful of instances, but it's not a handful. It's a pattern.
    You keep throwing this out there...I'm not familiar with what you are talking about. Were these same cops involved in this? The same jurisdiction?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Yea, I'm not buying that. If a cop is threatened enough to use lethal force one a person without a weapon, then I'd question his judgement. Again, he was already being tased. Why did one cop feel secure enough to tase, but the other felt the need to use a gun?

    But let's say I did buy it...I'm having a hard time justifying how a black guy walking towards his car with his hands up is threatening enough to get tased and shot...But a white dude waving a gun threatening to kill everyone makes it out unscathed.

    I think you can justify a handful of instances, but it's not a handful. It's a pattern.
    Perhaps he felt secure enough to tase because he knew that there were three other officers with their weapons drawn and trained on the suspect.

    I agree with you about the disparate treatment of white suspects and black suspects. Although we do have to be careful here. It's entirely possible that similar videos with white suspects who are shot and killed exist, but don't get the same press.

    I know that the Washington Post did an article on situations where police killed a suspect and broke down. I think the number of times police killed a suspect was close to a 1,000 in a year. I'll see if I can find it.

    Edit:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ice-shootings/

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Yea, I'm not buying that. If a cop is threatened enough to use lethal force one a person without a weapon, then I'd question his judgement. Again, he was already being tased. Why did one cop feel secure enough to tase, but the other felt the need to use a gun?

    But let's say I did buy it...I'm having a hard time justifying how a black guy walking towards his car with his hands up is threatening enough to get tased and shot...But a white dude waving a gun threatening to kill everyone makes it out unscathed.

    I think you can justify a handful of instances, but it's not a handful. It's a pattern.
    I've never known a cop to ever let anyone go back to their car. On any car stop, if you're out of your car, your sitting in the bumper until it's over. And you're not getting out of the car unless I ask you to.

    It's why cops don't feel great about going into people's houses. I don't know what you have hidden away. But you do. That puts you at a tactical advantage. We're taught from day 1 to never put yourself at a disadvantage.

    I'm not a Milo guy, but I saw this across my fb feed as shared by someone I know. It illustrated the point of why we don't let people reach around in their car or go back to their car if their out.

    https://www.facebook.com/myiannopoul...6590148812216/

  17. #37
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    Also, I'm not saying that the cop in Tulsa was right. I don't know enough about it. She seems to have made a huge, huge mistake and it will need to be addressed.

    I just don't see the need for people to riot as if that's going to help anything. I also don't understand why the media reports half of a story and allows people to get worked up and destroy cities. They can always amend a story. They can't undo the chaos and destruction.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    You keep throwing this out there...I'm not familiar with what you are talking about. Were these same cops involved in this? The same jurisdiction?
    It's not one instance.

    http://usuncut.com/black-lives-matte...-survive-cops/

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    It's important in these situations to wait for facts. The video is a fact, no doubt. But it's not the only facts. That's because the video lacks all the audio we need. It lacks context. It also does not show everything. At times the video is obstructed.

    My initial reaction is the same as most, this looks terrible. Like murder. But there are multiple sides to this story.

    Here's the officer that shot's side of the story:

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-polic...ry?id=42243843

    I'm not going to quote it, because the majority of the article is a narrative of what she says her experience was, so clips out of context won't work. If you're interested in some balance, you'll have to read the entire story.

    I don't know if the officers were right here, but this is not as cut and dry as it originally appeared. Something that struck me as odd through my first viewing of the video remains. Here are a bunch of police, weapons aimed, following a man with his hands up as he walks towards his truck.

    I can't think of any reason for this unless he was not following their instruction. They wouldn't point their weapons at him and then order him towards a place where a weapon could be stashed. This seemed like an escalation.

    Then there's this:

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/f...-life-42241028


    So once more, we need to wait and see where the facts take us.
    And now there is this one
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-polic...ry?id=42290178
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    A guy walking to his car is not a direct threat.

    The shot fired was premature. Itchy trigger finger.
    That's so easy to say when you're nice and safe behind your keyboard. I'd love to see you in a similar situation to see how you respond. I admit I am not a cop but I spent one of my two tours in Iraq wandering around the city of Fallujah and its surrounding villages and I will tell you right now when you find yourself in a situation where you have no idea what some people are capable of and there could be many different possible scenarios based on how a situation unfolds you just don't know what you are going to do until the shit hits the fan. I agree the world is in a bad place right now and I get the pattern you are speaking of but you just don't know unless you are in the situation.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaveByRichter35 View Post
    That's so easy to say when you're nice and safe behind your keyboard. I'd love to see you in a similar situation to see how you respond. I admit I am not a cop but I spent one of my two tours in Iraq wandering around the city of Fallujah and its surrounding villages and I will tell you right now when you find yourself in a situation where you have no idea what some people are capable of and there could be many different possible scenarios based on how a situation unfolds you just don't know what you are going to do until the shit hits the fan. I agree the world is in a bad place right now and I get the pattern you are speaking of but you just don't know unless you are in the situation.
    Iraq and Tulsa are very different places.

    A guy with his back to you walking away with his hands above his head is not enough direct threat to use deadly force.

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