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Thread: Is Dan Girardi One of the Most Overrated Players in the NHL?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    This is kind of the same argument Rotter makes. It's a fallacy of relative privation argument. That's fancy-speak for "well, so and so is worse, so it's not so bad". It acts as a type of pressure release valve in arguments like this because, yes, there are worse deals, but those deals being worse doesn't justify Girardi's as good. Girardi's can still be bad, just to a lesser degree. To me, he's overpaid by about $1M when you account for what he actually gives you both statistically and analytically. At a number actually closer to McDonagh's (even though they don't compare — RFA to UFA), I actually don't think you'd see as big a stink made about his deal.

    But this will undoubtedly also lead to the conversation we had a week ago or so that dragged Staal in, because the real crux of the issue here isn't specifically that the Rangers overpaid a UFA (as all/most are overpaid by some degree). It's that they did it twice, for the same player. That's what really kills their cap.

    They paid two minute-eating soldiers who really don't aid the offense any (if at all) like numbers-producers, at the UFA rates. The Staal/Girardi deals here are like owning a huge gas-guzzling pick-up truck when you live in the suburbs. Yeah, it can do all these incredible towing/torque-related things, none of which you'll ever really have a need for, and your comfortable with it, so much so you bought one for your wife too. At the same sticker price you bought the first one. When all you really needed was a Toyota Camry.
    Great post, spot on in it's 'situational assessment'. One element to add is that when the contract was being considered and negotiated, Sather not only did not consider the Staal situation strongly enough, but completely whiffed on assessing and prioritizing Stralman and his role in the mix. At that point Stralman was considered someone who would resign for only 3-4 years for much less than 4 mil. At the same time everyone knew G and Staal were going to be seeing similar contracts and the ask was over 6 mil for 7 years. That alone should have had Sather appreciating that 2 contracts like G's would overweight the team's payroll with defensive Dmen. Too boot, he ended up giving older players too many years and both full NMCs for too many years.

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    I like Girardi. I'm not an advanced stats guy so i could care less, the game is played on the ice. All i know is he played on our top pair and we reached two ECF, presidents trophy and a stanley cup. It's obvious he is doing something right. He makes a lot of money and i would trade him if we had the chance to but we need to make sure his replacement can play those minutes against those forwards. Girardi isn't flashy but he gets the job done. Sometimes people turn that into a player sucking but that's not the case.

    Our problem is scoring. Our forwards were shitty for most of the playoffs and you win by scoring goals, we couldn't do that consistently and it cost us. It would be nice to have another offensive dman but you need a mix of both and i think we have that.

    Realistically, who can really replace him right now? I'm not sure

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    I never really understood this argument. How many types of players are there? Am I to assume there are 6 different kinds of dmen and each team should have one of each with their own specific salary? How many teams have that?

    Yes, the origional argument is a fallacy of sorts but you must pay for effective dmen. That's how the NHL and sports in general works. Is he a similar player to Staal? Yes. But what's the problem with that? We had the best goal differential in the league last year which was one of the factors of us being the best all around team in the league so clearly something is working.

    I get that everyone wants to improve the team all the time but I think the other 29 teams would take Girardi for that price right now if they could.
    When I say they are the same player, I’m speaking in generalities. They are, in effect, the same type of defenseman — shut-down. Minute-eaters who are used to neutralize the others teams better forwards who largely do not put a great deal of points on the board. Valuable, sure, but to a point. And for a team as geared toward producing offense as this one is, having that many non-producers on the back-end at more than $11M combined is a lot.

    I also disagree entirely with the assumption/premise that 29 teams take him at his price. I think a handful would, sure, but he is overpaid, and there are a lot of teams who are up against the cap who wouldn’t start tearing out pieces of their team to get Dan Girardi.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYR View Post
    I like Girardi. I'm not an advanced stats guy so i could care less, the game is played on the ice. All i know is he played on our top pair and we reached two ECF, presidents trophy and a stanley cup. It's obvious he is doing something right. He makes a lot of money and i would trade him if we had the chance to but we need to make sure his replacement can play those minutes against those forwards. Girardi isn't flashy but he gets the job done. Sometimes people turn that into a player sucking but that's not the case.

    Our problem is scoring. Our forwards were shitty for most of the playoffs and you win by scoring goals, we couldn't do that consistently and it cost us. It would be nice to have another offensive dman but you need a mix of both and i think we have that.

    Realistically, who can really replace him right now? I'm not sure
    You say that like advanced stats are a separate set of values that you get to choose to believe in or not. They're not. Just like regular statistics, "advanced" stats are just another form of metrics that are drawn from the game played on the ice. How you choose to interpret and act on what they tell you, and to what degree you allow them to influence your decision-making is another story.

    As to his replacement, no one internally. You'd have to presume the deal he goes in also brings in someone capable of filling the void he'll leave.
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    Contract isnt bad. Its just that he redundant. Paying him and Staal that money to be similar players (I like Staal as the overall better player). I'd say he over rated. I feel his last two seasons were kinda not worth what he gets paid for. When they CAN teade him, they SHOULD.

    Just cant have all that money sunk into THIS defense and not have a mainstay offensive minded guy in the top 4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    When I say they are the same player, I’m speaking in generalities. They are, in effect, the same type of defenseman — shut-down. Minute-eaters who are used to neutralize the others teams better forwards who largely do not put a great deal of points on the board. Valuable, sure, but to a point. And for a team as geared toward producing offense as this one is, having that many non-producers on the back-end at more than $11M combined is a lot.

    I also disagree entirely with the assumption/premise that 29 teams take him at his price. I think a handful would, sure, but he is overpaid, and there are a lot of teams who are up against the cap who wouldn’t start tearing out pieces of their team to get Dan Girardi.



    You say that like advanced stats are a separate set of values that you get to choose to believe in or not. They're not. Just like regular statistics, "advanced" stats are just another form of metrics that are drawn from the game played on the ice. How you choose to interpret and act on what they tell you, and to what degree you allow them to influence your decision-making is another story.

    As to his replacement, no one internally. You'd have to presume the deal he goes in also brings in someone capable of filling the void he'll leave.
    In that case, why move him? We will have to pay the guy who replaces him close to the same amount so why not just Keep G? Unless we are getting a great prospect along with his replacement but i doubt it

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR View Post
    In that case, why move him? We will have to pay the guy who replaces him close to the same amount so why not just Keep G? Unless we are getting a great prospect along with his replacement but i doubt it
    You assume this. We don't know it for a fact. He could be moved to a team looking for a veteran D who'd then part with a younger player for him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR View Post
    In that case, why move him? We will have to pay the guy who replaces him close to the same amount so why not just Keep G? Unless we are getting a great prospect along with his replacement but i doubt it
    If you're paying a guy $5.5, McD shouldn't have to carry him. You can get a guy for McD to carry for $3.5.

    For what we pay G, he's should be a #1. He's more like a 3 or 4, but who's a 2 because he's right handed.

    He makes too much for this team and to only be useful when paired with McD.

    That's just my $. 02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    You assume this. We don't know it for a fact. He could be moved to a team looking for a veteran D who'd then part with a younger player for him.
    True but you also need to factor in his contract. Even though he would be a good addition, teams might not be able to handle 5.5 mil without giving up a shit contract. Like i said, it's not worth it trading G for a lesser cheaper Dman and a prospect unless it's a really good prospect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    If you're paying a guy $5.5, McD shouldn't have to carry him. You can get a guy for McD to carry for $3.5.

    For what we pay G, he's should be a #1. He's more like a 3 or 4, but who's a 2 because he's right handed.

    He makes too much for this team and to only be useful when paired with McD.

    That's just my $. 02.
    I said i would trade G if i had the chance. If it was that easy to find McD another partner, i think it would have been done already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR View Post
    I said i would trade G if i had the chance. If it was that easy to find McD another partner, i think it would have been done already.
    What makes you think so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR View Post
    True but you also need to factor in his contract. Even though he would be a good addition, teams might not be able to handle 5.5 mil without giving up a shit contract. Like i said, it's not worth it trading G for a lesser cheaper Dman and a prospect unless it's a really good prospect.
    What teams? You're speaking in generalities, as though the scenario league-wide is the same and that everyone views Girardi in exactly the same manner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR View Post
    True but you also need to factor in his contract. Even though he would be a good addition, teams might not be able to handle 5.5 mil without giving up a shit contract. Like i said, it's not worth it trading G for a lesser cheaper Dman and a prospect unless it's a really good prospect.
    What really good prospect are you likely to get? Girardi is a player whose main strengths are tallying hits and blocked shots. Comparables in those statistics would be players like Ladislav Smid, Nicklas Grossman, Josh Gorges, etc. Look at the returns on recent deals for them. You'll probably get a bit more for Girardi, but not much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    What really good prospect are you likely to get? Girardi is a player whose main strengths are tallying hits and blocked shots. Comparables in those statistics would be players like Ladislav Smid, Nicklas Grossman, Josh Gorges, etc. Look at the returns on recent deals for them. You'll probably get a bit more for Girardi, but not much.
    I don't expect a good prospect back. He is 30 years old making 5.5 mil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    What teams? You're speaking in generalities, as though the scenario league-wide is the same and that everyone views Girardi in exactly the same manner.
    What teams would make a move for Girardi? A rebuilding team with space wouldn't so i assume a contending team with very little cap space would. How do they afford him if they have no space?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR View Post
    I don't expect a good prospect back. He is 30 years old making 5.5 mil
    You just said you wouldn't trade him unless it were for a cheaper defenseman and a really good prospect. You're not getting both. If you need to trade Girardi, you trade him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    What makes you think so?
    Not understand the question. There are always RD free agents out there, yet management never trades Girardi to sign any of the and i'm sure teams will take G in the offseason but the Rangers keep him. Maybe they just like him how he is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    You just said you wouldn't trade him unless it were for a cheaper defenseman and a really good prospect. You're not getting both. If you need to trade Girardi, you trade him.
    But you are not getting good value back is what i'm saying. G knows the system, the team, he has been here a long time. Why bring in a lesser player for 1.5 mil savings? Unless that 1.5-2 mil is needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR View Post
    What teams would make a move for Girardi? A rebuilding team with space wouldn't so i assume a contending team with very little cap space would. How do they afford him if they have no space?
    There are middle of the pack teams that are neither contenders nor in a rebuild that would likely take him. A team likely isn't even taking on the full $5.5M without sending back salary either. There would be plenty of teams with $2-3M in cap space that could take him on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR View Post
    What teams would make a move for Girardi? A rebuilding team with space wouldn't so i assume a contending team with very little cap space would. How do they afford him if they have no space?
    I'm not doing your work for you (again). Anaheim was linked to him before he signed his extension. He's from just outside Toronto, and played in Buffalo growing up. Maybe either would be a welcomed destination for him? I have no idea.

    My point is that you're making a lot of assumptions that you don't seem to have any evidence for — that no one will give anything significant for him, that the Rangers will have to take a shit contract, that they'll have to pay whoever replaces him the same amount, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    If you're paying a guy $5.5, McD shouldn't have to carry him. You can get a guy for McD to carry for $3.5.

    For what we pay G, he's should be a #1. He's more like a 3 or 4, but who's a 2 because he's right handed.

    He makes too much for this team and to only be useful when paired with McD.

    That's just my $. 02.
    I think Girardi paired with Staal is a solid pairing. They just work well together and arent so "blah".

    I'd see if that can be a pairing and move Yandle up to the top pair shifting to the right or have McD shift over. Hell, I'd pair Klein with McD. Just get Girardi off the top pair.

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