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Thread: Rangers' Top Two Centers vs. Rest the of NHL's

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    Quote Originally Posted by torontonyr View Post
    I'm not mad. It was like midnight and I was on my phone. The fact is, you're mistaken.

    For Spezza yeah. But not as a tandem which is kinda the point you first made.
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    Quote Originally Posted by torontonyr View Post
    Okie dokie. The goalpost keeps moving. First the metric was success. Now, it is points. Which, for the record isn't a fantastic metric for them either. 5th out of 9 isn't a shining example of value.
    It is when they're paid 11th/11

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    Quote Originally Posted by CreaseCrusader91 View Post
    For Spezza yeah. But not as a tandem which is kinda the point you first made.
    No, not at all. I said that most of these tandems have been to a stanley cup, or a final. You made the qualifiers on Seguin based on his position, not me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    It is when they're paid 11th/11
    Right. I'm not saying there's no value in our Centers, I'm saying that they deserve to be 2nd, or 3rd last in that list. We could sit here all day choosing metrics, like face off percentages, cups won, Captains, etc. My point is, I'm not as shocked, or impressed, as some of you guys are by this information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torontonyr View Post
    Okie dokie. The goalpost keeps moving. First the metric was success. Now, it is points. Which, for the record isn't a fantastic metric for them either. 5th out of 9 isn't a shining example of value.
    I find a certain level of irony with you saying the goalposts keep moving.

    You've yet to take anything other than an arbitrary stance of we are the "worst" and everyone else is "better", all the while trying to pick apart everyone else's point and never really backing up your own.

    So explain what metric you're using to base the opinion that we're the "worst", if you don't mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I find a certain level of irony with you saying the goalposts keep moving.

    You've yet to take anything other than an arbitrary stance of we are the "worst" and everyone else is "better", all the while trying to pick apart everyone else's point and never really backing up your own.

    So explain what metric you're using to base the opinion that we're the "worst", if you don't mind.
    Eh, no irony really. I just made a pretty broad statement - and everyone seems to challenge it with specific metrics. Example, certain players suddenly don't have success, or are not comparable, due to playing another position, partially.

    I'd go with every metric as a whole. Faceoffs, PPG , PPG over their careers, Stanley Cups, Finals Appearances, Playoff Experience, PPP, Season High Points totals, Captaincy, etc. At the end of the day, I get why the Rangers are at, or near, the bottom of that list. Not to mention, as Phil states, many of these could be explained with their contract, or lack thereof, status at signing.
    Last edited by torontonyr; 07-29-2015 at 10:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torontonyr View Post
    Eh, no irony really. I just made a pretty broad statement - and everyone seems to challenge it with specific metrics. Example, certain players suddenly don't have success, or are not comparable, due to playing another position, partially.
    Well, I found the irony in you complaining about others' metrics when you presented none of your own. You made a broad off the cuff statement with no support. People challenged it. This is nothing new on this forum.

    I'd go with every metric as a whole. Faceoffs, PPG , PPG over their careers, Stanley Cups, Finals Appearances, Playoff Experience, PPP, Season High Points totals, Captaincy, etc. At the end of the day, I get why the Rangers are at, or near, the bottom of that list. Not to mention, as Phil states, many of these could be explained with their contract, or lack thereof, status at signing.
    I guess I'm not really sure what your point is when you say the "worst". Even if that were true, which I don't think it is, we're amongst the best teams in the league over the last 4-5 years in terms of playoff appearances and runs—And you don't get there by having bad center tandems.

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    Well, I found the irony in you complaining about others' metrics when you presented none of your own. You made a broad off the cuff statement with no support. People challenged it. This is nothing new on this forum.
    It was 10pm, and I was on my phone. Explanations and stats were not going to be disposed. I wasn't talking about your goal post, because that was a fair platform for debate. It was more when asterisks started to be added to the conversation that it got ridiculous.

    I guess I'm not really sure what your point is when you say the "worst". Even if that were true, which I don't think it is, we're amongst the best teams in the league over the last 4-5 years in terms of playoff appearances and runs—And you don't get there by having bad center tandems.
    Worst within the context of those players, those contracts, and all that come with them. The pairing of Brassard and Stepan haven't accomplished as much, or proven to be of any advanced quality over most of the players on that list. I'm not saying we're bad, as I've stated several times, but we're the worst out of that list, Buffalo aside. Even Jumbo Joe, who's the most bloated player on that list - had a higher ceiling during his contract in terms of performance, captaincy, and experience, than Stepan or Brassard. Thus, he got paid more - and so it's not surprising.

    Perhaps "worst" is the term that bothers you most. Replace it with "least qualified" and I'm sure you'll get my point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torontonyr View Post
    Worst within the context of those players, those contracts, and all that come with them. The pairing of Brassard and Stepan haven't accomplished as much, or proven to be of any advanced quality over most of the players on that list. I'm not saying we're bad, as I've stated several times, but we're the worst out of that list, Buffalo aside. Even Jumbo Joe, who's the most bloated player on that list - had a higher ceiling during his contract in terms of performance, captaincy, and experience, than Stepan or Brassard. Thus, he got paid more - and so it's not surprising.

    Perhaps "worst" is the term that bothers you most. Replace it with "least qualified" and I'm sure you'll get my point.
    Nope, still don't get your point. Joe Thornton is the captain of a dysfunctional team.

    As we both agreed with what Phil said, the contracts don't matter because of when they were signed.

    As a tandem, only Crosby/Malkin, Datsyuk/Zetta, Kopitar/Carter and Bergeron/Krejci have won Cups. You'd take Staal/Staal over Stepan/Brassard at $3 million more? I say hell no to that. Same as perennial chokers JT and Pavelski.

    All this lit shows is that as far as bang for your buck and production, Stepan and Brassard are up there with the sexy names. And the team they play on has been largely more successful recently than everyone on that list but the Hawks.

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    I feel like Step and Brassard might be the least qualified - whatever that means - in 2009. Now? Not so much.

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    I might be wrong but aren't Stepan and Brassard one of the youngest of that list too?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Teeth View Post
    I might be wrong but aren't Stepan and Brassard one of the youngest of that list too?
    Second youngest after O'Reilly and Ennis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Nope, still don't get your point. Joe Thornton is the captain of a dysfunctional team.

    As we both agreed with what Phil said, the contracts don't matter because of when they were signed.

    As a tandem, only Crosby/Malkin, Datsyuk/Zetta, Kopitar/Carter and Bergeron/Krejci have won Cups. You'd take Staal/Staal over Stepan/Brassard at $3 million more? I say hell no to that. Same as perennial chokers JT and Pavelski.

    All this lit shows is that as far as bang for your buck and production, Stepan and Brassard are up there with the sexy names. And the team they play on has been largely more successful recently than everyone on that list but the Hawks.
    Not sure we agreed to anything, in terms of time frame. You have to consider and reference how, why, and when they were signed. It matters, point plank.

    Would I trade for Joe & Joe, or Staal and Staal? Probably not. That said, they're deserving of more money, or they were when they signed, due to their respective track records and/or positions on their teams.

    Captains get more. Cup winners get more. Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torontonyr View Post
    Not sure we agreed to anything, in terms of time frame. You have to consider and reference how, why, and when they were signed. It matters, point plank.

    Would I trade for Joe & Joe, or Staal and Staal? Probably not. That said, they're deserving of more money, or they were when they signed, due to their respective track records and/or positions on their teams.

    Captains get more. Cup winners get more. Period.
    As do those in less desirable markets, because they have to pay players like that just to keep them. Eric Staal, Rick Nash, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    As do those in less desirable markets, because they have to pay players like that just to keep them. Eric Staal, Rick Nash, etc.
    Agreed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torontonyr View Post
    Not sure we agreed to anything, in terms of time frame. You have to consider and reference how, why, and when they were signed. It matters, point plank.

    Would I trade for Joe & Joe, or Staal and Staal? Probably not. That said, they're deserving of more money, or they were when they signed, due to their respective track records and/or positions on their teams.

    Captains get more. Cup winners get more. Period.
    That's not necessarily true.

    But either way, I'm still not sure how we have the worst centers on that list in terms of bang for buck. If anything, I think the list shows we're getting production and value, same as everyone else. And our centers are in their prime, not over it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    That's not necessarily true.

    But either way, I'm still not sure how we have the worst centers on that list in terms of bang for buck. If anything, I think the list shows we're getting production and value, same as everyone else. And our centers are in their prime, not over it.
    Again, you're probably hung up on the worst word. I apologize. We have good centers, and today they're probably not the worst. At this point, comparatively anyhow you're correct. However, if you take into account all the things that other group has accomplished, their times/signing conditions, the places they play, and previous accolades - our group is probably the least heralded of them all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torontonyr View Post
    Again, you're probably hung up on the worst word. I apologize. We have good centers, and today they're probably not the worst. At this point, comparatively anyhow you're correct. However, if you take into account all the things that other group has accomplished, their times/signing conditions, the places they play, and previous accolades - our group is probably the least heralded of them all.
    Truth. But they're also the youngest with career in front of them to achieve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Truth. But they're also the youngest with career in front of them to achieve.
    Or not. It could all end tomorrow and these contracts will seem sillier than SJ's. I wasn't expressing my dislike for our tandem, in fact I'm quite fond of them, but the fact that they're the least paid doesn't shock me, personally.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    The points make them look good, but it also ignores some facts like neither being able to win draws and both being severely undersized.
    How are they severely undersized? Stepan is 6 foot and Brassard is 6'1. They aren't Brian Boyle big but they aren't midgets either. Faceoffs are important but i wouldn't judge a player by his faceoff percentage. We got far with Stepan and Brassard. Imagine we had a guy like Dastyuk or Spezza on this team in addition to Stepan and Brass? We win the cup imo.

    also, they are both young and they have tons of experience. Some players never get the experience they got these past few years. We should be happy

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