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Thread: Sather Talks Candidly About Arbitration Process

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    Well, no. Saad wasn't a victim of the salary cap as much as he was a victim of the threat of an offer sheet that was fueled by the team knowing they were exposed early on to what they presumed would be a tight fit under it. That's an important qualifier in his case. They didn't think they could afford to risk keeping him exposed to an offer sheet while they continued to negotiate with him, so they got value right out of the gate. Substantial value. I love Saad too, but let's not pretend they got a pile of broken toys for him. They got Marko Dano and Artem Anisimov (plus). Anisimov fills the hole Richards left when he left and Dano might step right into the same role Saad just left. At a fraction of the cost (for now).

    But like I said earlier, the problem with a luxury tax is in whether or not you cap it. Does the NBA? Or any other league with one? By percentage? Does the percentage change per season based on other variables?

    A non-capped luxury tax would fly in the face of the spirit of the CBA, which is designed to provide a level playing field for all teams for all players. It would have to be capped, and teams who violated that cap would have to pay a heavy price for doing so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    Well, no. Saad wasn't a victim of the salary cap as much as he was a victim of the threat of an offer sheet that was fueled by the team knowing they were exposed early on to what they presumed would be a tight fit under it. That's an important qualifier in his case. They didn't think they could afford to risk keeping him exposed to an offer sheet while they continued to negotiate with him, so they got value right out of the gate. Substantial value. I love Saad too, but let's not pretend they got a pile of broken toys for him. They got Marko Dano and Artem Anisimov (plus). Anisimov fills the hole Richards left when he left and Dano might step right into the same role Saad just left. At a fraction of the cost (for now).
    An offer sheet they couldn't match, because the cap is too low for EVERY championship team.

    I get that they got Arti and MARCO POLO in return. But my point is, do they inspire loyalty from the fans who fell in love with Saad, the 20 y/o who bought his jersey. Especially if Chicago gets knocked out in the 1st round this year. There gets to a point where too much roster turnover is bad for fan loyalty. It is those of us who go to the games and those of us who watch our team religiously on TV that keep this league alive and growing. We are the ones who turn our kids on for the ... magic? Certainly the more the "business" aspect interferes with the fan's enjoyment, the less inclined we are to invest our time and our kids time in watching.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 07-28-2015 at 07:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    But like I said earlier, the problem with a luxury tax is in whether or not you cap it. Does the NBA? Or any other league with one? By percentage? Does the percentage change per season based on other variables?

    A non-capped luxury tax would fly in the face of the spirit of the CBA, which is designed to provide a level playing field for all teams for all players. It would have to be capped, and teams who violated that cap would have to pay a heavy price for doing so.
    SOLD! 10% it is. Now with that settled can we call the players assoc for approval? In return they allow owners to add 2 minutes to overtime so that we get 4 minutes of 4 on 4 and 3 minutes of 3 on 3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    An offer sheet they couldn't match, because the cap is too low for EVERY championship team.

    I get that they got Arti and MARCO POLO in return. But my point is, do they inspire loyalty from the fans who fell in love with Saad, the 20 y/o who bought his jersey. Especially if Chicago gets knocked out in the 1st round this year. There gets to a point where too much roster turnover is bad for fan loyalty. It is those of us who go to the games and those of us who watch our team religiously on TV that keep this league alive and growing. We are the ones who turn our kids on for the ... magic? Certainly the more the "business" aspect interferes with the fan's enjoyment, the less inclined we are to invest our time and our kids time in watching.
    No, an offer sheet they might have been able to match, that probably would have prevented them from being able to sign other players. So they made a call and moved him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    It was those losses then the additional loss of a 24 y/o Saad that just turned a few hundred teenagers closer to their xbox or a party than to go see the Hawks next season and root for some guy from Russia they heard was a decent 3rd line Center. Hardcore Hawk fans know the loss of Saad will be felt. I'm a Ranger fan and I can't believe they lost Saad. Maybe Toews, Kane, Keith and Quenville are that good that you can just put an ordinary team around them and win. We'll see next year. To put my money where my mouth is... I'll bet anyone here they do not make the WCF this year.

    BTW, Rome you are going deep into the metrics and calcs of how they arrive at the cap, which is great. However, a luxury tax does not change the cap process, we'll still have a cap and then a small overage allotment that will be taxed hard when used. I'm not sure your arguments are as powerful against an NBA like lux tax. Like you suggested 10% of the cap could be a reasonable # and solution for all the good teams now feeling squeezed by Florida and Ariz and Siberia.
    Frankly you couldn't be more wrong.

    I'm as hardcore Hawks fan as it gets with family in Chicago and we all talked about trading Saad the same as Ranger fans talk about trading Kreider. We'd do it for the right deal. And keeping Toews and Kane and Keith is paramount.

    I doubt anyone is turning to Xbox over this. They're excited to see TT86 in a bigger role and they have a Cup. A few of them. They deal fine. They're still the best team in the West until proven otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    These are all team-friendly scenarios though. Why would Hank accept a 5 year deal for 50, when he can have a guaranteed 7 year deal for close to 60? He's getting that money no matter what. No matter how injured, how bad, how bald he gets. That's what the players are pushing for, the most money for the most amount of years.
    I was just giving an example. It can be 5 years 65m. Maybe Hank isn't the greatest example. Maybe Stepan was a better example. If a few days before arbitration he was asking for the same total he wanted, the Rangers would have had the ability to say "Okay, that's fine. You can have that total and we are willing to overpay a little" since it could have possibly been used as a franchise contract. Steps walks away with a 4-5 year deal, we dont cringe at how it would force us next year to get rid of another player from our own system.


    Maybe this idea isn't for everyone. Jut spitballing here.
    Last edited by Keirik; 07-29-2015 at 01:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Cause and effect though Keirik. You are blaming Sather's poor decisions and building the wrong way to money and an unlimited budget. A luxury tax merely expands the budget a little bit and allows that money to flow from the rich teams to the players and poorer teams.

    Realize you are also throwing money at the problem by essentially increasing the cap with a franchise player, without compensating the smaller mkt or poorer teams. Why do the other owners go for that? You just grew the cap without considering the weaker markets. Why do the players go for that instead of a bigger chunk of the cap for all the players they represent? See where a luxury tax is a beautiful compromise? It addresses the small mkt issue (like in the NBA), allows good teams to retain homegrown talent easier and gets more money to the players from the teams that can afford it.

    Pretty simple and elegant if you ask me.
    No i dont see where a luxury tax is a beautiful compromise. I think you are taking my idea way too far out of the scope of what it's meant for. Smaller market teams would go for it if they are in a situation where they want to keep a player. Take the Oilers for example. They likely will have this problem very very soon. If one of their big players could have a contract where his salary doesn't decimate their cap, they would want that for building a winner moreso than they are going to want just want monetary compensation. Besides, luxury caps only serve to aid in smaller teams being basically feeders of talent to the bigger teams later on in years because you basically are telling rich teams to just throw extra money at players with the penalty of just giving some money to a smaller market to make them feel better about losing that player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Frankly you couldn't be more wrong.

    I'm as hardcore Hawks fan as it gets with family in Chicago and we all talked about trading Saad the same as Ranger fans talk about trading Kreider. We'd do it for the right deal. And keeping Toews and Kane and Keith is paramount.

    I doubt anyone is turning to Xbox over this. They're excited to see TT86 in a bigger role and they have a Cup. A few of them. They deal fine. They're still the best team in the West until proven otherwise.
    What couldn't I be more wrong about? 12 to 24 year olds don't give a shit about Saad? And you say this because you are known as a romantic sentimentalist and quite representative of high schoolers across the southside?

    I'm not sure how many of the younger generation that attend games are talking about trading Kreider. I'm not sure how many of us older fans who haven't seen a real power forward (sans Graves?) since --I dunno 1974 with Teddy Irvine -- is thinking we should trade Kreids. It seems somewhat laughable when a poster or two here suggests it. Why? What do we get for Kreids that replaces his size, speed, strength, youth, 25+ goals, toughness and desire to get better? I'd rather not try and replace that with a bunch of lesser players who only bring part of that package plus picks or a rated prospect.

    The deal would have to be special for me to unload a healthy Kreider. I want McKinnon. Or Saad and Jenner. Or Corey Perry. Or Logan Couture and a NHL ready prospect. Or Johnny hockey and Kris Russel or Lance Bouma or TJ Brodie. Or Kuznetsov and Tom Wilson. You get the idea. If I'm going to play against Kreider I want guys the other teams fan's don't want to play against. If Ranger fans are talking about trading Kreids well before he's unrestricted, we want something exciting back. Are fans really talking about trades like Kreids for Anisimov and Dano?

    Lastly, no one thinks the last 3 years of Blackhawk hockey hasn't been the highest caliber. Will they be the best in the west this year? My money says no, and I hold Toews, Kane and Keith in the highest regard. Don't want to take me up on my bet that they don't even make the WCF this year? I'll offer another, where the odds favor you. Anaheim goes further than Chicago. If they both get knocked out the same round, it's a draw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    What couldn't I be more wrong about? 12 to 24 year olds don't give a shit about Saad? And you say this because you are known as a romantic sentimentalist and quite representative of high schoolers across the southside?

    I'm not sure how many of the younger generation that attend games are talking about trading Kreider. I'm not sure how many of us older fans who haven't seen a real power forward (sans Graves?) since --I dunno 1974 with Teddy Irvine -- is thinking we should trade Kreids. It seems somewhat laughable when a poster or two here suggests it. Why? What do we get for Kreids that replaces his size, speed, strength, youth, 25+ goals, toughness and desire to get better? I'd rather not try and replace that with a bunch of lesser players who only bring part of that package plus picks or a rated prospect.

    The deal would have to be special for me to unload a healthy Kreider. I want McKinnon. Or Saad and Jenner. Or Corey Perry. Or Logan Couture and a NHL ready prospect. Or Johnny hockey and Kris Russel or Lance Bouma or TJ Brodie. Or Kuznetsov and Tom Wilson. You get the idea. If I'm going to play against Kreider I want guys the other teams fan's don't want to play against. If Ranger fans are talking about trading Kreids well before he's unrestricted, we want something exciting back. Are fans really talking about trades like Kreids for Anisimov and Dano?

    Lastly, no one thinks the last 3 years of Blackhawk hockey hasn't been the highest caliber. Will they be the best in the west this year? My money says no, and I hold Toews, Kane and Keith in the highest regard. Don't want to take me up on my bet that they don't even make the WCF this year? I'll offer another, where the odds favor you. Anaheim goes further than Chicago. If they both get knocked out the same round, it's a draw.
    I'm sure you think Anaheim is the team to beat now that they have Hagelin.

    Chicago is the best team until they aren't. They might not make the Final this year, and maybe that's just because they're so fucking good that they play too much fucking hockey and that wears on you. Doesn't really have a lot to do with the Cap.

    And frankly, IMO they'd miss Sharp more than Saad. You're claiming hardcore Hawks fans know the loss of Saad will be felt... Well, duh. Even casual Hawks fans know that. It's obvious. Hardcore Hawks fans also realize it had to be done.

    I'm not sure what makes you think that 12-24 year olds in Chicago are going to go play Xbox because they traded Saad, but feel free to go poll them. I'll wait while you compile the numbers. Until then, it's just fabrication. And why do we care about that specific demographic? They likely aren't the ones paying for tickets.

    Statistics show that fans are loyal to teams not players in every sport but basketball. And yes, I've seen the research, and no I can't post it because it was at work.

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    I don't understand how it's difficult to understand how they lost Saad, welcome to the salary cap. And let me get this right, his trade will drive fans away and to Xbox? I'm so confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I'm sure you think Anaheim is the team to beat now that they have Hagelin.

    Chicago is the best team until they aren't. They might not make the Final this year, and maybe that's just because they're so fucking good that they play too much fucking hockey and that wears on you. Doesn't really have a lot to do with the Cap.

    And frankly, IMO they'd miss Sharp more than Saad. You're claiming hardcore Hawks fans know the loss of Saad will be felt... Well, duh. Even casual Hawks fans know that. It's obvious. Hardcore Hawks fans also realize it had to be done.

    I'm not sure what makes you think that 12-24 year olds in Chicago are going to go play Xbox because they traded Saad, but feel free to go poll them. I'll wait while you compile the numbers. Until then, it's just fabrication. And why do we care about that specific demographic? They likely aren't the ones paying for tickets.

    Statistics show that fans are loyal to teams not players in every sport but basketball. And yes, I've seen the research, and no I can't post it because it was at work.
    Haha, well Anaheim was among the 4-5 best teams last year. Hags is gonna push them over the top. They are now the fastest big team in the league.

    One story about Sharp (I won't do justice) going back to his early days in Chicago from an exec who was there. Essentially acquired from the Flyers for a 3rd round pick, Sharp was not really a known entity to the staff and expectation were small. [This either happened after he was acquired or the following year days after Yawney was fired.] Regardless, coaches were making changes, watching team practices and evaluating players. One of the assistant coaches was asked about this guy and that guy.

    After a couple of days the assistant called a quick huddle with either Yawney or Savard and some presonnel guys. He says no one has asked me about the one forward we should be talking about. The kid who was demonstrating the best hockey sense on the whole team. The kid who somehow always gets open, skates through and around vets w/o effort, gets a breakaway every practice and seems to stick handle around a teammate and then come back and quietly teach the teammate how he was able to get open.

    So the coaches watched closely and later went to Tallon and said we are going to make this Sharp kid a major part of the offense. The coaches did not want to tell the GM what to do ever, but turnover was happening. So the asst blurts out, don't dare trade him he is the only forward I must have going forward. After a few surprised faces, he says I mean it. Tallon just looks at him, pauses and says, OK, you got it.

    Sharp is not under appreciated around the league, however his career and ability will probably be underrated by most fans outside Chicago. So Pete, I'm a fan and he too will be missed. That said, Sharp's 10+ hard years in the NHL, given his pay rate, meant he certainly had to go. Many were surprised he wasn't traded last off season. Like all of us, he is no longer the physical specimens he was in his twenties. But Brandon Saad is almost 10 years younger, a horse, and was positioned to be the forward not named Toews/Kane to build around. That plan is gone. As a Ranger fan, I dread that he is in Columbus.

    Now, it is off to poll those 12 to 24 y/o fans. In the meantime, I'll remind you and the greedy NHL owners of that demographic's importance to the future of the league. Baseball, in their hubris, taught us that life without baseball is still pretty fun. Between all the work stoppages and even a season w/o the game, the elimination of almost all day games, playoff games starting at 8:40 PM, etc., the league basically told the kids F U. we do not care about you.

    Now the kids tell baseball, hey we care about other stuff, we don't bleed your game the way generations past did.

    My point is that we do not know exactly why we have a love affair with the game or our team, but it certainly isn't because of the business aspects and it never was. If you disregard things like exposure to younger folks, you break the bond. If you create a revolving door of players to a point where we can't get attached to players, maybe fans get less attached to the team.

    The study about how fans root for the sweater has merit, but is way overstated and over simplistic. It completely disregards any personal connection a fan may feel with a player(s) and does not measure so many intangibles that influence what we prioritixe 1,2,5,8,10 years down the line. It does not account for teams with low turnover versus high turnover and all the other factors that influence a team's fanbase. It does not even account for the growth of fantasy sports and how that may have offset waning interest in football and hockey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Teeth View Post
    I don't understand how it's difficult to understand how they lost Saad, welcome to the salary cap. And let me get this right, his trade will drive fans away and to Xbox? I'm so confused
    Not so much "difficult to understand", just hard to believe they did not figure out a way to keep him. Thought it better to trade him at a discount, then make different moves. I'll even speculate that they traded him because he was easy to trade, they felt like they were going shopping. Who wouldn't want him.? Usually that is a bad reason to trade a guy. It is also not so common to see a 24 y/o with his game and success, get moved. I'd equate it to trading Neely, Doan, Iginla, Tocchet when they were 24.

    You know what? The cap may prevent GMs from building a perfect team so GM's have to solve a puzzle. Many are getting better at it, but the new era emphasizes that you prioritize keeping young core budding stars, at least until they are near UFA. Chicago couldn't solve the riddle and lose a player that is very difficult to replace. The result could hurt their competitiveness much more than if they moved a different piece.

    Don't take the Xbox thing too literally. Just saying the kids don't want to see too many of their favorites moved because of biz concerns. It may turn them off and they have a lot more entertainment options to turn to, than I had as a kid.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 07-29-2015 at 12:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Haha, well Anaheim was among the 4-5 best teams last year. Hags is gonna push them over the top. They are now the fastest big team in the league.

    One story about Sharp (I won't do justice) going back to his early days in Chicago from an exec who was there. Essentially acquired from the Flyers for a 3rd round pick, Sharp was not really a known entity to the staff and expectation were small. [This either happened after he was acquired or the following year days after Yawney was fired.] Regardless, coaches were making changes, watching team practices and evaluating players. One of the assistant coaches was asked about this guy and that guy.

    After a couple of days the assistant called a quick huddle with either Yawney or Savard and some presonnel guys. He says no one has asked me about the one forward we should be talking about. The kid who was demonstrating the best hockey sense on the whole team. The kid who somehow always gets open, skates through and around vets w/o effort, gets a breakaway every practice and seems to stick handle around a teammate and then come back and quietly teach the teammate how he was able to get open.

    So the coaches watched closely and later went to Tallon and said we are going to make this Sharp kid a major part of the offense. The coaches did not want to tell the GM what to do ever, but turnover was happening. So the asst blurts out, don't dare trade him he is the only forward I must have going forward. After a few surprised faces, he says I mean it. Tallon just looks at him, pauses and says, OK, you got it.

    Sharp is not under appreciated around the league, however his career and ability will probably be underrated by most fans outside Chicago. So Pete, I'm a fan and he too will be missed. That said, Sharp's 10+ hard years in the NHL, given his pay rate, meant he certainly had to go. Many were surprised he wasn't traded last off season. Like all of us, he is no longer the physical specimens he was in his twenties. But Brandon Saad is almost 10 years younger, a horse, and was positioned to be the forward not named Toews/Kane to build around. That plan is gone. As a Ranger fan, I dread that he is in Columbus.

    Now, it is off to poll those 12 to 24 y/o fans. In the meantime, I'll remind you and the greedy NHL owners of that demographic's importance to the future of the league. Baseball, in their hubris, taught us that life without baseball is still pretty fun. Between all the work stoppages and even a season w/o the game, the elimination of almost all day games, playoff games starting at 8:40 PM, etc., the league basically told the kids F U. we do not care about you.

    Now the kids tell baseball, hey we care about other stuff, we don't bleed your game the way generations past did.

    My point is that we do not know exactly why we have a love affair with the game or our team, but it certainly isn't because of the business aspects and it never was. If you disregard things like exposure to younger folks, you break the bond. If you create a revolving door of players to a point where we can't get attached to players, maybe fans get less attached to the team.

    The study about how fans root for the sweater has merit, but is way overstated and over simplistic. It completely disregards any personal connection a fan may feel with a player(s) and does not measure so many intangibles that influence what we prioritixe 1,2,5,8,10 years down the line. It does not account for teams with low turnover versus high turnover and all the other factors that influence a team's fanbase. It does not even account for the growth of fantasy sports and how that may have offset waning interest in football and hockey.
    I was in my mid twenties when they traded Leetch. I'm here.
    I was in my teens when they traded Turcotte and Granato and Amonte and Weight. I'm here.

    So are the rest of the Ranger fans my age. Kind of hard to prove your point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I was in my mid twenties when they traded Leetch. I'm here.
    I was in my teens when they traded Turcotte and Granato and Amonte and Weight. I'm here.

    So are the rest of the Ranger fans my age. Kind of hard to prove your point.
    Well part of my point Pete is that you are an aberation. You do not represent the average fan. Take that as a compliment.

    BTW, did you have to bring up Amonte, Weight and Granato (and Sandstrom too)? That was only forgiven (barely) because we still had Messier, Graves, Leetch, Zubov and Richter to fill the void and then they went on to win the cup. But we did mortgage so so much to win that cup. I'm still not sure that 91 team wasn't as good, had Richter been a little more experienced and/or didn't let in that redline goal. Neil Smith did not realize the talent, Patrick brought to this team. Most did not until years after he was fired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Well part of my point Pete is that you are an aberation. You do not represent the average fan. Take that as a compliment.

    BTW, did you have to bring up Amonte, Weight and Granato (and Sandstrom too)? That was only forgiven (barely) because we still had Messier, Graves, Leetch, Zubov and Richter to fill the void and then they went on to win the cup. But we did mortgage so so much to win that cup. I'm still not sure that 91 team wasn't as good, had Richter been a little more experienced and/or didn't let in that redline goal. Neil Smith did not realize the talent, Patrick brought to this team. Most did not until years after he was fired.
    That is simply something you cannot prove.

    How can you possibly argue that any Rangers fan who's my age, who followed the team since I started following the team, are aberrations? That's a lot of aberrations. Kind of the opposite of an aberration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    That is simply something you cannot prove.

    How can you possibly argue that any Rangers fan who's my age, who followed the team since I started following the team, are aberrations? That's a lot of aberrations. Kind of the opposite of an aberration.
    OK, I'm chuckling. Of course that is something I can't prove. Just having a little fun and something is getting lost in the translation. I'll put it a different way.

    You are not the typical fan now and I'm guessing you were not then. From my observations you are extremely analytical, detail oriented, hold very strong opinions, have a sophisticated understanding of the game and a lot of the issues that surround the NHL. You have a very unique online hockey persona. I've interacted with thousands of hockey fans, you stand out. Now don't make me try to prove it, it is just my perception and I could be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    OK, I'm chuckling. Of course that is something I can't prove. Just having a little fun and something is getting lost in the translation. I'll put it a different way.

    You are not the typical fan now and I'm guessing you were not then. From my observations you are extremely analytical, detail oriented, hold very strong opinions, have a sophisticated understanding of the game and a lot of the issues that surround the NHL. You have a very unique online hockey persona. I've interacted with thousands of hockey fans, you stand out. Now don't make me try to prove it, it is just my perception and I could be wrong.
    And argumentative. I have to laugh. Only you would argue with my complimenting you.

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    I think what Giac is pointing out Pete is that you don't really represent the average fan. You're more like a super-fan. A "nerd" of sorts. You, like many others here, know so much more than the average channel-surfer, or even those buying season tickets every year.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    I think what Giac is pointing out Pete is that you don't really represent the average fan. You're more like a super-fan. A "nerd" of sorts. You, like many others here, know so much more than the average channel-surfer, or even those buying season tickets every year.
    Yes, a hockey nerd. Thanks you are much more succinct and precise.

    Now I better get out of here, I'm swamped.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    I think what Giac is pointing out Pete is that you don't really represent the average fan. You're more like a super-fan. A "nerd" of sorts. You, like many others here, know so much more than the average channel-surfer, or even those buying season tickets every year.
    I understand his point about me, I just don't agree that I continue to watch the team no matter who they trade because I'm some type of super-fan.

    There are simply hundreds of thousands of casual fans who don't stop following a team because their favorite player, and we shouldn't worry about the hundreds who might.

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