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Thread: The Airing of Grievances: 2015 Edition

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    I just included you because your post was the 1st replied and it set off a chain of events. You've asked me in the past to be specific with you when I've got a problem with something you've posted, so that's what I did. It was your post that set the tone. We immediately saw others fall in line behind you.

    As to the second part, I'm someone who doesn't have a ton of disposable income right now because I just had a kid not too long ago, and she takes priority. However, I'm a huge Rangers fan. So when I go to a game, I do it when I can get tickets cheaply. That means I go to see them play Vancouver instead of against the Islanders. I wear one of two unlettered jerseys to games that I got a couple of decades ago. I won a bootleg Callahan Winter Classic jersey at the boardwalk. When I wanted to get my daughter a little jersey, I got a $15 Richards one from NHL.com rather than a $45 Lundqvist one.

    And so I'm exactly the type of person that, if I could find a quality jersey that's cheaper because the player isn't on the team anymore, and could pull out the letters and get it redone to be a nice jersey and save $80, I might do that too. And so when I saw this thread, I was interested in what it had to offer.

    So it's not necessarily about, do I eat or get a jersey. Some people have less disposable income than others. You don't have that problem, and that's great for you.
    Specifically to this point, Dave, your issue is with post #2 which was before Ed's broader explanation in post #3. If you buy a jersey for $100 and then have to get a new nameplate put on, with shipping it to different places or taking it places, what have you, that jersey is likely costing you $130-$150 all in. You can just get a perfectly fine replica jersey for $160.

    I think that's what Mike was saying. Then Ed explained in more detail in post 3.

    For the rest of what you're saying, no issue.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain?
    The group mentality scares away a lot of potential new users, which I think limits how much the forum can grow. Like 35% of all the forums post are from the 6 person moderation staff.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Specifically to this point, Dave, your issue is with post #2 which was before Ed's broader explanation in post #3. If you buy a jersey for $100 and then have to get a new nameplate put on, with shipping it to different places or taking it places, what have you, that jersey is likely costing you $130-$150 all in. You can just get a perfectly fine replica jersey for $160.

    I think that's what Mike was saying. Then Ed explained in more detail in post 3.

    For the rest of what you're saying, no issue.
    Another issue I think, is, is "Authentic" a...marketing term? Like "Reebok Authentic Series"? I get that jerseys are very tricky, in that there are...lets call them real jerseys and fake jerseys. That's probably not good terminology. There are Officially Licensed jerseys and then there are, in fact, bootlegs that are made illegally. And then even the Officially Licensed ones, there are different manufacturers and different versions made.

    When someone uses the term "bootleg" it implies that the jerseys in the OP are illegally made copies. Is that the assertion being made?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Another issue I think, is, is "Authentic" a...marketing term? Like "Reebok Authentic Series"? I get that jerseys are very tricky, in that there are...lets call them real jerseys and fake jerseys. That's probably not good terminology. There are Officially Licensed jerseys and then there are, in fact, bootlegs that are made illegally. And then even the Officially Licensed ones, there are different manufacturers and different versions made.

    When someone uses the term "bootleg" it implies that the jerseys in the OP are illegally made copies. Is that the assertion being made?
    What threw me is that how does an "authentic" jersey have a mistake? Then is post 3, he says the jersey is authentic, but just the customization is wrong. I didn't distinguish between the 2, for whatever reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    The group mentality scares away a lot of potential new users, which I think limits how much the forum can grow. Like 35% of all the forums post are from the 6 person moderation staff.
    I agree. It's something we've discussed at times. It gets tricky because sometimes there is just one person defending an unpopular position. To me, if a discussion is 6 on 1, then the 6 have a responsibility to be more careful with what they say and the 1 should get some leeway because often times, they're debating on multiple fronts.

    Do you have some suggestions on how we can help stop that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    What threw me is that how does an "authentic" jersey have a mistake? Then is post 3, he says the jersey is authentic, but just the customization is wrong. I didn't distinguish between the 2, for whatever reason.
    I agree, the OP in this case could have been clearer. But then, I think we want people to ask for clarification before responding. Like, "You say that they're authentic but have errors, how does that happen?".

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    I agree, the OP in this case could have been clearer. But then, I think we want people to ask for clarification before responding. Like, "You say that they're authentic but have errors, how does that happen?".
    Yea, you're right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    The group mentality scares away a lot of potential new users, which I think limits how much the forum can grow. Like 35% of all the forums post are from the 6 person moderation staff.
    This is something I'm struggling to find an answer for, because part of what makes a moderator good for the position is how often they post and are online. The answer here isn't to add people to the Staff who are not on, or do not post as often. That's counter-productive.

    Unless what you are really saying is that you find that the Staff simply agree on most topics too much (meaning they come off as one mind), and not that they make up the majority of the posting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    This is something I'm struggling to find an answer for, because part of what makes a moderator good for the position is how often they post and are online. The answer here isn't to add people to the Staff who are not on, or do not post as often. That's counter-productive.

    Unless what you are really saying is that you find that the Staff simply agree on most topics too much (meaning they come off as one mind), and not that they make up the majority of the posting.
    I think that happens sometimes and not others, depending on the topic. I for one, can't stand Pete's opinion like 95% of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    This is something I'm struggling to find an answer for, because part of what makes a moderator good for the position is how often they post and are online. The answer here isn't to add people to the Staff who are not on, or do not post as often. That's counter-productive.

    Unless what you are really saying is that you find that the Staff simply agree on most topics too much (meaning they come off as one mind), and not that they make up the majority of the posting.
    I can't see how this is the case when we're always fighting with each other.

    I never agree with Dave on anything.

  11. #31
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    Heh, we agree on something! See, I was right when I said 95% and you were wrong when you said we "never" agree.

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    I also disagree with both of you almost always (though not in principle) on religious topics nearly every time those threads are raised.

    But there's something to be said of perception is reality. It's why I struggle with the complaint (and this is not the first time we've heard it) that there's a dominant "voice" among the Staff. I just don't know how to rectify it, because the answer is most certainly not to do the opposite of what I'm doing now.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    I also disagree with both of you almost always (though not in principle) on religious topics nearly every time those threads are raised.

    But there's something to be said of perception is reality. It's why I struggle with the complaint (and this is not the first time we've heard it) that there's a dominant "voice" among the Staff. I just don't know how to rectify it, because the answer is most certainly not to do the opposite of what I'm doing now.
    It's a bit of chicken and egg. If no one hangs around enough because they feel drowned out by a "group mentality", how can we know enough about them to get them on staff, and will they ever be on enough?

    I think Jimmy is saying the moderation team makes up most of the traffic, but that's the reason they are the moderating team.

    And for myself, I'm not ignoring any new users or their posts. I go at it with Future once a day, the Dude, too. Slobberknocker and I have had some good talks. CC91 and Drew were both new users who didn't get intimidated to jump right in, they were almost to aggressive.

    I don't know.

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    I’ll try and expand on my thoughts a little bit since there’s a bunch of follow up questions

    I don’t think the moderators all agreeing is a problem at all, some of you can be a bit aggressive at times in the way you argue, but there’s a good mix and I think in most cases users can be assured that at least one member of the staff has their back as long as their positions in an argument aren’t completely out in left field.

    One of the problems here is that unique opinions here are often times met with not so warm responses. I think something most regular users don’t realize is that if someone new joins the forum and makes a claim that is unpopular without much to support it, responding coldly telling them to cite reasons and other things isn’t going to help them out. They will see that post as hostile, and respond back in a hostile way putting the whole wheel in motion. Then if they continue to post they will constantly have their guard up, and will misconstrue and question about their opinion as an attack on them. This is difficult to fix because of how long people on here have been arguing about this subject matter, but I think people need to realize that not everyone is going to be able to post in an organized way that clearly outlines their position, and has evidence to support it, and it’s wrong to expect that of newer users. It took a lot of people here years to get to them point where they can form airtight arguments, lets not think others should be able to argue in the same way.

    The big problem, as Dave alluded to is the group mentality here. Again, let me first say that no one in the moderation staff is guilty of condoning this, but I think some of you need to realize that you have users who will follow you around and agree with you for some type of recognition (I guess). Because of this when you get in a debate with someone chances are that a bunch of others will start jumping in to side with you while also making snide remarks on the side. That then creates an other flow of posts not related to your opinion or post, but more just taking slight jabs at the person who made the initial post. I know most of the people here are grown, but whenever you have any type of orginaztion where personalities are created, it’s going to lead to a type of high school cafeteria subenviroment. But there’s not really anyway to fix this, unless you can call someone out for nutriding, lol.

    This forums a great resource for Rangers fans, but I’m not sure many who read it would be inclined to create an account, because from a birds eye view it’s very cliqy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    It's a bit of chicken and egg. If no one hangs around enough because they feel drowned out by a "group mentality", how can we know enough about them to get them on staff, and will they ever be on enough?

    I think Jimmy is saying the moderation team makes up most of the traffic, but that's the reason they are the moderating team.

    And for myself, I'm not ignoring any new users or their posts. I go at it with Future once a day, the Dude, too. Slobberknocker and I have had some good talks. CC91 and Drew were both new users who didn't get intimidated to jump right in, they were almost to aggressive.

    I don't know.
    Some users who become valuable members of the forum may have been doing it for the wrong reason. IE gaining recognition
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    I believe he's saying the jersey is authentic, the lettering was done after and he comments that it was done poorly. Since I believe the point of the post was to remove the lettering and get new lettering put on, not sure why that would be an issue. I don't know much about jerseys, myself, but he goes into depth explaining different versions. So if you want to participate in this thread because you think he's passing wrong information, it's completely welcomed, but then, explain why you think the jersey isn't authentic.

    In short, you said this:



    After he outlines it all in the third post in this thread:

    http://www.blueshirtsbrotherhood.com...l=1#post739541

    If you're disputing what he's saying here, then offer up some proof. You come across like you're just calling him a liar. To be clear, I don't know, you may be right. But he provides a lot of information and you don't counter with any.
    I know what he's saying and he's incorrect. The authentic jerseys are made in Canada, not Indonesia. Both the Edge 1.0 and 2.0 The tags are different, the materials are different. Hell, without trying to sound like a douche, even the string is different. Those are too long. I don't have a problem with the thread. I have a problem with someone calling something authentic when it's not. I've lived in Asia. They can make some really really good knockoffs there that are very hard to tell the difference.
    grabbed a few of mine, all either Edge 1.0 or some of the newer are 2.0 Yes there is an authentic Straka in there lol

    inner tag


    Authentics are made in Canada and have different materials, stitching, tags, etc.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    I’ll try and expand on my thoughts a little bit since there’s a bunch of follow up questions

    I don’t think the moderators all agreeing is a problem at all, some of you can be a bit aggressive at times in the way you argue, but there’s a good mix and I think in most cases users can be assured that at least one member of the staff has their back as long as their positions in an argument aren’t completely out in left field.

    One of the problems here is that unique opinions here are often times met with not so warm responses. I think something most regular users don’t realize is that if someone new joins the forum and makes a claim that is unpopular without much to support it, responding coldly telling them to cite reasons and other things isn’t going to help them out. They will see that post as hostile, and respond back in a hostile way putting the whole wheel in motion. Then if they continue to post they will constantly have their guard up, and will misconstrue and question about their opinion as an attack on them. This is difficult to fix because of how long people on here have been arguing about this subject matter, but I think people need to realize that not everyone is going to be able to post in an organized way that clearly outlines their position, and has evidence to support it, and it’s wrong to expect that of newer users. It took a lot of people here years to get to them point where they can form airtight arguments, lets not think others should be able to argue in the same way.

    The big problem, as Dave alluded to is the group mentality here. Again, let me first say that no one in the moderation staff is guilty of condoning this, but I think some of you need to realize that you have users who will follow you around and agree with you for some type of recognition (I guess). Because of this when you get in a debate with someone chances are that a bunch of others will start jumping in to side with you while also making snide remarks on the side. That then creates an other flow of posts not related to your opinion or post, but more just taking slight jabs at the person who made the initial post. I know most of the people here are grown, but whenever you have any type of orginaztion where personalities are created, it’s going to lead to a type of high school cafeteria subenviroment. But there’s not really anyway to fix this, unless you can call someone out for nutriding, lol.

    This forums a great resource for Rangers fans, but I’m not sure many who read it would be inclined to create an account, because from a birds eye view it’s very cliqy.
    Really good post. I think this is something we need to figure out a way to improve. A new user posts something, and someone almost always welcomes them to the forum, but then they're in the battle. I'll use a wrestling analogy that's probably dated. It's the Royal Rumble (they still do that?) and a new guy heads to the ring with 15 other guys already there. They get in and rather than it being every man for themselves, there are already two groups there. If the guy doesn't immediately join a group AND FIT RIGHT IN, they're going to get attacked by multiple people.

    I don't think we have just one clique here. I think there are quite a few to different degrees with overlap, but they are still very much there. There is a mod clique based on our shared experience. There's a real world clique of guys that know each other off the forum. Then there are cliques based on subject matter. When discussing Hank, these X number of folks all feel similary and have been debating on him in a certain way for years. Same way there was with Callahan, Torts, Avery, MDZ, etc.

    It is no doubt overwhelming to someone who's either new or has lurked for a while and wants to dip their toe in. Chanced are pretty high that one or more of these cliques will chomp that toe right off.

    So how can we be better?

  18. #38
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    I won't put this in that thread, but i feel like it should be. I wasn't calling anyone a liar. I was pointing out it's incorrect. Maybe he doesnt' even realize he's wrong about it, but regardless of someone paying 150, 100, or 379, they should know the truth about what they are buying and it's legitimacy.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    I know what he's saying and he's incorrect. The authentic jerseys are made in Canada, not Indonesia. Both the Edge 1.0 and 2.0 The tags are different, the materials are different. Hell, without trying to sound like a douche, even the string is different. Those are too long. I don't have a problem with the thread. I have a problem with someone calling something authentic when it's not. I've lived in Asia. They can make some really really good knockoffs there that are very hard to tell the difference.
    grabbed a few of mine, all either Edge 1.0 or some of the newer are 2.0 Yes there is an authentic Straka in there lol
    ...

    Authentics are made in Canada and have different materials, stitching, tags, etc.
    Which is a fine response that can be addressed by the OP. Just calling them bootleg without this supporting information is different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Which is a fine response that can be addressed by the OP. Just calling them bootleg without this supporting information is different.
    Well, im sorry. I wasn't exactly in a position yesterday to gather up 5-6 of my jerseys just to show him, especially considering i'm not exactly known as the cop bootlegger jersey guy. I've actually posted up pics of jerseys in the past for our 1st winter classic (i think it was here and after we migrated from hell to here) showing what some of the signs of an authentic jersey are.
    I said they are nowhere near authentic. It was one sentence. Making it out like a castrated the guy is a huge leap.

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