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Thread: The Eric Garner Discussion Thread

  1. #441
    Senior Member Bantam Division Marc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphinity View Post
    Maybe you should take a step back. I was responding to Marc's soul searching, self-reflective questions.

    Don't get your knickers in a twist. I didn't even see your response.
    sorry, I've been reading a lot of existentialism recently...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    sorry, I've been reading a lot of existentialism recently...
    That's the word I was looking for.

    I can tell. Do you really think that's the big question here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    all these circumstances are complicated, the answers are cloudy, that siad the moral implications are simple.

    The real and most massive question is why. Why are we like this? Why do the police feel the need to do this? Why do the CIA torture people? Are we creating our environment when law becomes lawless, or are we a creation of the environment as the world descends into chaos? Or is it both?
    It's not like this is a common practice of the police though. If you compared the sheer number of law enforcement across the country to the incidents that happen, it's not a huge percentage of officers doing anything wrong. This is the problem with a discussion like this because it's easier to say all cops are bad, racist, look to shoot and kill people or look to beat people, when that is far from the truth, and the number of cops not doing this is a prime example. Hundreds of cops are killed every year by the public, should we start saying that the public likes to murder cops? No one would say that because it's obvious that's not true, just as much as its not true that cops are out to bully the public. Like I said in previous posts, there are bad eggs in every job, there is no way your gonna weed out every idiot, but you also shouldn't base every person in that field the same as that idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    Sure, I can get on board with all that. If you look back, I've always been in the camp upset over this simply because the officer wasn't indicted for anything. I still think there was enough there for something like negligent homicide at the least, but even if he isn't and he's simply fired and then sued by the Garner family in civil court, that's fine by me. What I'm not OK with is the idea that this guy killed an unarmed man with a barred maneuver (though not illegal) and is left to return to work as though he did nothing wrong.

    Then again, I don't see how this officer, considering his name and face are plastered everywhere can ever return to work anyway. The same was the issue with Darren Wilson. His name is ruined, right or wrong.
    He's not going to rturn to work as if nothing is wrong, simply because no other cop will want to work with him. Don't get hung up on the banned things, because another thing that's banned is that a cop cannot shoot at a vehicle unless they are using another weapon, like a gun, from that vehicle. So the example we are given on the deadly force test is if your in an ally, and a vehicle as wide as the ally is purposely driving twords you to run you over, and they have no other weapon, can you shoot? The answer is no, you are expected to jump out of the way. Now NYS allows a cop to do this, but not the NYPD. There is no physical way, in that situation, your jumping out of the way. To me, I'll shoot to save my life in that situation rather than be killed, and deal with the consequences.

    He won't be back working the streets, he will be jammed up until his department trial, in a year or 2, and then fired. If he isn't fired, no one will want to work with him.

  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphinity View Post
    As for your response, the result was that he did a move and it put pressure on his throat. If his intended takedown wasn't a choke hold, and it turned into one due to the perp's size, should he not be held responsible?

    Shouldn't he have immediately ceased to continue the choke hold at that point?
    Thats actually a really tough one to answer on both parts. In a way he is being held responsible because his life will never be the same. I'm not trying to make him into a victim because he's not. Far from it. As for should be criminally be held responsible? Well, that's difficult because its about 15 seconds worth of that hold and it isn't until Garner is on the ground that he is saying he can't breathe and the hold is over seconds after that. I'm just trying to say that most times you have someone on the ground like that they always are saying they cant breathe. I'm guessing he just thinks it's someone who's been through the system playing the game.

    I think what we should learn about all of this is two sided. We (as in the Police) need to be more patient before a hands on approach and we (as in the public) need to comply and let the Justice system, albeit unfair at times, decide our fate. There's nothing procedural, robotic, or cut and dry straight text book when it involves people and the manipulation of the human body when it's so fragile. Anything can happen and both sides need to always be cognitive of that.

  6. #446
    Senior Member Bantam Division Marc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphinity View Post
    That's the word I was looking for.

    I can tell. Do you really think that's the big question here?
    Ultimately yes, I do. Answering your question and NYR2711 at once, it's not that all cops are bad, all blacks are bad, all Muslims are bad, all rednecks are bad, all parents are bad,... the question is what or who is making the neutrally born people in all walks of life bad. Is their environment forming them or are they forming the environment. Law enforcement, from a store security guard to the CIA are not immune to these circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    Thats actually a really tough one to answer on both parts. In a way he is being held responsible because his life will never be the same. I'm not trying to make him into a victim because he's not. Far from it. As for should be criminally be held responsible? Well, that's difficult because its about 15 seconds worth of that hold and it isn't until Garner is on the ground that he is saying he can't breathe and the hold is over seconds after that. I'm just trying to say that most times you have someone on the ground like that they always are saying they cant breathe. I'm guessing he just thinks it's someone who's been through the system playing the game.

    I think what we should learn about all of this is two sided. We (as in the Police) need to be more patient before a hands on approach and we (as in the public) need to comply and let the Justice system, albeit unfair at times, decide our fate. There's nothing procedural, robotic, or cut and dry straight text book when it involves people and the manipulation of the human body when it's so fragile. Anything can happen and both sides need to always be cognitive of that.
    Great answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    He's not going to rturn to work as if nothing is wrong, simply because no other cop will want to work with him. Don't get hung up on the banned things, because another thing that's banned is that a cop cannot shoot at a vehicle unless they are using another weapon, like a gun, from that vehicle. So the example we are given on the deadly force test is if your in an ally, and a vehicle as wide as the ally is purposely driving twords you to run you over, and they have no other weapon, can you shoot? The answer is no, you are expected to jump out of the way. Now NYS allows a cop to do this, but not the NYPD. There is no physical way, in that situation, your jumping out of the way. To me, I'll shoot to save my life in that situation rather than be killed, and deal with the consequences.

    He won't be back working the streets, he will be jammed up until his department trial, in a year or 2, and then fired. If he isn't fired, no one will want to work with him.
    Right. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. I understand that. There are definitely scenarios where I like to think I'd do the exact same thing, were I in your shoes.
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  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    He's not going to rturn to work as if nothing is wrong, simply because no other cop will want to work with him. Don't get hung up on the banned things, because another thing that's banned is that a cop cannot shoot at a vehicle unless they are using another weapon, like a gun, from that vehicle. So the example we are given on the deadly force test is if your in an ally, and a vehicle as wide as the ally is purposely driving twords you to run you over, and they have no other weapon, can you shoot? The answer is no, you are expected to jump out of the way. Now NYS allows a cop to do this, but not the NYPD. There is no physical way, in that situation, your jumping out of the way. To me, I'll shoot to save my life in that situation rather than be killed, and deal with the consequences.

    He won't be back working the streets, he will be jammed up until his department trial, in a year or 2, and then fired. If he isn't fired, no one will want to work with him.
    Interesting. Because Nik seems to think nothing will happen to the guy, at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Interesting. Because Nik seems to think nothing will happen to the guy, at all...
    It's my opinion, I can't say for sure whether he will or not, I just don't see how he keeps his job.

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    I want to take a moment to thank the police officers who've responded to this thread. It's really helps provide perspective. People talk about the blue wall and that sort of thing, but what I read from our police friends here is more about examining the situations, keeping an open mind, not rushing to judge either side and giving some very welcomed context. Bravo, gentlemen.
    “Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― Neil Gaiman,

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    I want to take a moment to thank the police officers who've responded to this thread. It's really helps provide perspective. People talk about the blue wall and that sort of thing, but what I read from our police friends here is more about examining the situations, keeping an open mind, not rushing to judge either side and giving some very welcomed context. Bravo, gentlemen.
    Completely agree. In fact, I usually go out of my way to rep them in any threads like this considering how quickly things like this can turn anti-cop.
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    Hey, you guys deserve just a much of a cheers as well. Everyone has been pretty good considering the topic in all cop related threads. Funny enough, maybe 4-5 years ago we might have been a bit different all together but we'v matured as a group

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    Hey, you guys deserve just a much of a cheers as well. Everyone has been pretty good considering the topic in all cop related threads. Funny enough, maybe 4-5 years ago we might have been a bit different all together but we'v matured as a group
    We were in a different place back then... literally

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    It's been a nice calm discussion, at least what I have read, which has made for good conversation. Between the cops and everyone else here, I feel for the most part, we are all on the same page. Now if the rest of society could follow along, we can make some progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    Hey, you guys deserve just a much of a cheers as well. Everyone has been pretty good considering the topic in all cop related threads. Funny enough, maybe 4-5 years ago we might have been a bit different all together but we'v matured as a group
    Torts' fault
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphinity View Post
    We were in a different place back then... literally
    lol true enough

  18. #458
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    @NY1: BREAKING: The city comptroller says the city has reached a $5.9 million settlement with the estate of Eric Garner. http://t.co/uNZwki0Yw4
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  19. #459
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    Wonder what changed... They were gonna sue for 75mil or something like that yesterday.

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