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Thread: The Eric Garner Discussion Thread

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cousin View Post
    Your right not a good comparison. Cop works for the public. If he follows the rules he served the public good. If someone dies in the course of him doing his job the right way it's unfortunate but not his fault. Case by case.
    Well, that’s why the debate is over whether he did his job “the right way”.

    I should clarify here, for the record, I actually think Garner aided in his own death. He wasn’t in very good shape, from a health-perspective, in the first place, but he absolutely resisted arrest, and forced the officers to physically restrain him. I’m not even concerned over the fact they got physical. They were fine to do so. The debate is over whether or not the choke hold itself was actually called for, considering the medical examiners office actually declared that it, literally the choke hold to his neck, was what directly lead to his death.

    I completely understand and agree that the police had to use force in this situation, and with him being a man of his size, struggled to get him to the ground. I just don’t know if I’m completely convinced the choke hold itself was required or necessary, especially with him screaming about not being able to breathe. I mean, I know everyone says the cuffs are too tight, or that they can’t breathe, but sometimes it’s true. This being a case in point of that. And a man had to die to prove it. That’s not right.

    I’m reminded of that line from Shawshank Redemption where they tell Andy when he first arrives “everybody’s innocent around here — didn’t you know that?”. It kind of holds a certain level of irony when talking about this case, and specifically talking about it to police officers. I get they hear it every day, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t take every claim of pain or the inability to breathe seriously.

    Again, comes with the territory of being in that line of work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    I see your point, especially with the first section. It's one thing for your job to fire you, but they'd never come after you civilly or press criminal charges against you. That's my issue with this. Not so much the firing, but the fact that they want him to face criminal charges and he will not be indemnified and could lose his house, etc.
    Sure they could. It’d be up to the courts to determine the veracity of their claim. Legally they could certainly take me to court.

    In this case, we need to identify “they”. If you are talking about whatever Al Sharpton is whining about today, sure, I get the objection to whatever he’s demanding. Knowing his history, my guess is he wants the cop drawn and quartered, and every dollar he ever earned given to Garner’s family, or some shit like that. I don’t care much for whatever he’s crying about. I do care about the outcome of this case, however.

    And as for the second part, I don't agree. At all. I'm in trusted to make judgement calls based on my training and I'm putting myself in jeopardy everyday. We're taught not to shoot into a crowd or put lives I'm danger needlessly, so I agree that we can't act recklessly and put people at risk. I would accept responsibility for that if I'm at fault in such a manner bc I went against better judgement, went against protocol and put INNOCENT people at risk.

    What I didn't sign up for and what no cop signed up for is this. The fact that you can take every thing I own away and imprison me for making an arrest (which I was told to make) in a way I was taught to do it using force necessary so that I nor my co workers get hurt in the course of doing our duty. When the assailant begins to resist, I'm given the ability to use force, as per the patrol guide. How can you then ruin me when something bad happens if I'm acting accordingly?
    If it’s determined that the force you used was excessive, you violated the terms of your guide, and at that point would and should be held liable. That’s what’s up in the air here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Huh? That's not at all what that video shows, I don't know how you can say that. Regardless, it's not up for debate. The ME said the choke hold killed Garner. That's the end of story. There are always consequences when someone dies of unnatural causes, whether they are criminal or civil. So to sit there and say the cop should just get reassigned and oh well, too bad, for Garner and his family is kind of bullshit.

    What I keep wanting to ask and forgetting to is; was he being approached for selling loose cigarettes, or for trying to stop a fight? Seems like the cops keep saying they were under some kind of mandate to crack down on illegal cigarettes, but the guy narrating the video said they approached him for trying to stop a fight. I'm not sure which is accurate.
    The cause of death doesn't matter. What matters is whether the police officer was using reasonable force given the situation. I don't know the answer to that. I'm sure there are guidelines. There is also intent. Was the officer trying to take him down using a choke hold or was he trying to use some other hold that ended up being a choke? It's great to be able to look at a video, replay it, not in the situation at all and say what we think is proper. It's quite another thing to be tasked with arresting a 300+ over 6 foot tall man who isn't following direction.

    As to the second part, I'm not sure. I don't know why they were talking to him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    You can't change the law/rules every time a 1in a million incident occurs. Devils advocate: Garner screams that he can't breathe. Cop lets go. Garner grabs his gun. Cop is dead. Poor judgement either way.
    That's not the only possible scenario there.

    Another is Garner screams he can't breathe, cop lets loose on the choke hold so Garner can breathe, is arrested and lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    You can't change the law/rules every time a 1in a million incident occurs. Devils advocate: Garner screams that he can't breathe. Cop lets go. Garner grabs his gun. Cop is dead. Poor judgement either way.
    Who said to change the law? What happened is involuntary manslaughter. There's already a law against it.

    THey could have let go of his neck. They didn't. A guy was kneeling on his head. Where was he going?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    The cause of death doesn't matter. What matters is whether the police officer was using reasonable force given the situation. I don't know the answer to that. I'm sure there are guidelines. There is also intent. Was the officer trying to take him down using a choke hold or was he trying to use some other hold that ended up being a choke? It's great to be able to look at a video, replay it, not in the situation at all and say what we think is proper. It's quite another thing to be tasked with arresting a 300+ over 6 foot tall man who isn't following direction.

    As to the second part, I'm not sure. I don't know why they were talking to him.
    Well, that doesn't matter. Yea, we're looking at it in hindsight...That's when you see if mistakes were made, or not. In hindsight. If mistakes were made, there need to be consequences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Well, that doesn't matter. Yea, we're looking at it in hindsight...That's when you see if mistakes were made, or not. In hindsight. If mistakes were made, there need to be consequences.
    I don't agree. You have to give people some margin for error. That's where intent comes in. For instance, if there is a legal hold that police use to restrain or take down people resisting arrest and it starts the same way we see in the video, but then the thrashing around caused the legal hold to slip into a choke, that's not something that I think you can fault the officer for. Is he supposed to just let go, not knowing what that result will be? Once he's attempting to take down the suspect, his partners are relying on him as well.

    The consequence may very well be a change is protocol, "do not apply this hold if the suspect is taller than you" for instance. Or sometimes tragic results just can't be avoided. There's simply no better way. And while this situation was tragic, what got the ball rolling was a 6'+ 300lb+ man resisting arrest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    I don't agree. You have to give people some margin for error. That's where intent comes in. For instance, if there is a legal hold that police use to restrain or take down people resisting arrest and it starts the same way we see in the video, but then the thrashing around caused the legal hold to slip into a choke, that's not something that I think you can fault the officer for. Is he supposed to just let go, not knowing what that result will be? Once he's attempting to take down the suspect, his partners are relying on him as well.

    The consequence may very well be a change is protocol, "do not apply this hold if the suspect is taller than you" for instance. Or sometimes tragic results just can't be avoided. There's simply no better way. And while this situation was tragic, what got the ball rolling was a 6'+ 300lb+ man resisting arrest.
    Not when it costs someone their life. Maybe the consequences aren't criminal charges, maybe it's a wrongful death suit. For someone to walk away unscathed for costing someone their life if it was deemed they acted irresponsibly is just unacceptable.

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    Chicken/egg. He doesn't resist, he doesn't die. I'm not proud of it, but I've been cuffed more times than I'd like to admit, and I have never resisted. To put it bluntly, you have to be a fuckin moron to resist. Nothing good is going to come of it. If you're man enough to commit a crime, accept the consequences like a man. Show me the guy that resisted and won.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Not when it costs someone their life. Maybe the consequences aren't criminal charges, maybe it's a wrongful death suit. For someone to walk away unscathed for costing someone their life if it was deemed they acted irresponsibly is just unacceptable.
    Even when it costs someone their life. Some activities are inherently dangerous. Resisting arrest is one of them. If it's deemed the officer acted irresponsibly then yes, of course there should be consequences. That's what we don't know. Just because someone died here doesn't mean the officer was irresponsible. We don't know proper procedure. We don't know what factors mitigated the circumstance.

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    Why become a cop today? The pay stinks and the benefits are being gutted. More often then not they are scapegoats for the real reasons for social injustice and the status of others. When the truth becomes politically incorrect to speak we all lose. Sad state of affairs. Just my observation. May be off topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cousin View Post
    Why become a cop today? The pay stinks and the benefits are being gutted. More often then not they are scapegoats for the real reasons for social injustice and the status of others. When the truth becomes politically incorrect to speak we all lose. Sad state of affairs. Just my observation. May be off topic.
    Retirement benefits? That's the only plus side I can see. Put in 20 years, and then work a job you really like when you're 40+ while making two salaries.

  12. #32
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    If Garner was Caucasian, would it be as big of a story ? I know it's a sensitive subject, but there's more to this than just a "man" getting killed. Just listen to the kid narrating the video.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Even when it costs someone their life. Some activities are inherently dangerous. Resisting arrest is one of them. If it's deemed the officer acted irresponsibly then yes, of course there should be consequences. That's what we don't know. Just because someone died here doesn't mean the officer was irresponsible. We don't know proper procedure. We don't know what factors mitigated the circumstance.
    This is exactly what I'm saying. Others are saying nothing should happen to the guy, he was just doing his job. We don't know that. We know we have a guy saying he can't breathe and a cop kneeling on his head. I mean...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    Chicken/egg. He doesn't resist, he doesn't die. I'm not proud of it, but I've been cuffed more times than I'd like to admit, and I have never resisted. To put it bluntly, you have to be a fuckin moron to resist. Nothing good is going to come of it. If you're man enough to commit a crime, accept the consequences like a man. Show me the guy that resisted and won.
    According to you.

    Maybe if the cop got off his neck when he couldn't breathe, he doesn't die.

    We can't absolve Garner for resisting. Of course you don't resist arrests. But if the cop was reckless and exhibited poor judgement, he needs to be dealt with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    This is exactly what I'm saying. Others are saying nothing should happen to the guy, he was just doing his job. We don't know that. We know we have a guy saying he can't breathe and a cop kneeling on his head. I mean...
    If he would have just put the cuffs on, he'd be alive. How about having consequences for resisting, other than it just being an additional charge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    If he would have just put the cuffs on, he'd be alive. How about having consequences for resisting, other than it just being an additional charge?
    What consequences? Death? You think that's OK? Well, that's a non-starter so we can end this debate before it even begins.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    According to you.

    Maybe if the cop got off his neck when he couldn't breathe, he doesn't die.

    We can't absolve Garner for resisting. Of course you don't resist arrests. But if the cop was reckless and exhibited poor judgement, he needs to be dealt with.
    You're giving the criminal more leeway than the police here. Cop wouldn't have been on his neck if he didn't resist in the 1st place. He was put in that position by Garner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    What consequences? Death? You think that's OK? Well, that's a non-starter so we can end this debate before it even begins.
    By resisting, you're putting yourself in that situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    By resisting, you're putting yourself in that situation.
    You're using the term "resisting" like there's just one way to resist. IF you jut keep backing away from the cop, like Garner or if you try to take the cop's gun like Brown, are very different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    You're giving the criminal more leeway than the police here. Cop wouldn't have been on his neck if he didn't resist in the 1st place. He was put in that position by Garner.
    Cops are held to a higher standard because they are cops. Goes with the territory. They are subject to the rule of law like anyone else.

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