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Thread: 'True Detective' on HBO: Season 2

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I think you're so quick to defend the show for some reason, that you're not fully reading what I wrote. The death WALK was out of left field. I watched all season. I know why they all were killed. Quite aware of the plot.
    I found it compelling. It reinforced the integrity of the character by showing him, even in his death throes, defiantly refusing to lay down, even though he did ultimately lay down regardless. Death swallowed him, but on his terms. And "on his terms" is effectively the theme of Frank from day one. It's why he refused to let Caspere's death knock him out of the land deal running, it's why he refused to pick up and quit when Jordan asked him to move with whatever they had left, it's why he refused to let Osip get away with fucking him over, etc.

    Yes, ultimately it still killed him, but that's part of the allure of what makes True Detective True Detective. It's not all happy-joy fairy tale endings.

    Which is awful story telling for this genre and totally off brand for True Detective.
    How? Last season ended with Cohle having some kind of semi-religious experience looking up at the sky, where the "heavens" opened for him as the Yellow King tried killing him in Carcosa. You shit on Ani potentially feeling a disturbance, but it's cool that ultra anti-theist Cohle all of a sudden has some kind of divine intervention occur in his life?

    How is it any more logical and consistent with the laws of nature that Cohle experiences a supernatural event, and no one bats an eye, but when Ani does it's incongruent with the brand of TD?

    Again, I'm aware. Not my point. Point is, why the fuck would Jordan care about Besiredes? Besiredes met Frank on time and fucked Velcoro one time. These bonds are forming too quickly for all of these supposedly damaged people. It makes absolutely no sense.

    OK, fair. Just a ridiculous way to end it, IMO.
    Because Bezzerides had the right message to go to her with, to allow Jordan to trust her. She had the photograph Frank gave her, and the right "words" to say to let Jordan know that she could be trusted. It's clear they fast-forwarded quite a bit considering she had an infant to care for, so we're probably talking at least a year of them having known one another.

    I guess you're agreeing with me? Because that's what I just said... With less words.
    I'd agree with you that these things in fact occurred for these reasons, yes. I don't agree that they weren't a good story to tell, or were a cop out of any kind.

    Frankly, I feel TD2 was actually a far superior ending to a more mediocre story, versus TD1 being a far superior story to a bullshit ending. So if TD3 is to occur, I think what they really need to do is get Pizzolatta's thoughts and goals out and in the open and then lock down ONE director to flesh the entire thing out who shares the same vision.

    I can't help but feel that the reason for so much of the disconnect (especially early) was the revolving door of directors this season. One episode to the next could often feel like a different show. Probably killed the TD vibe for a lot of people, even though the story itself (the writing) was actually arced so much better than last season.

    So, he picked off 2 with a handgun...but couldn't get the last 3 with a shotgun?
    I'm no munitions expert, but I'd imagine a handgun is a lot more accurate and deadly than a shotgun in this type of situation. Meaning I think the lethality of the handgun is greater than the lethality of the shotgun, even if the shotgun is designed to inflict a wider range of damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    The last 3 were in tighter quarters than the first 2 were. I would imagine with the shotgun, he'd have a decent chance of wounding more than one in the group. Not sure about the type of shotgun it was as far as rate of fire, but anything would be better than how he chose, I would think. Long range, jumping out into the open and not even able to get off a shot.
    To me, his choice at the end was to actually die. He muttered to himself "find a better place" and then effectively went out in a suicide-by-cop manner. Could he have tried to take a few more with him along the way? Sure, but it's not as though he hadn't already. He killed at least two, if not three of Burris' men before he died.

    Like Frank, he went out on his terms.
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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    I found it compelling. It reinforced the integrity of the character by showing him, even in his death throes, defiantly refusing to lay down, even though he did ultimately lay down regardless. Death swallowed him, but on his terms. And "on his terms" is effectively the theme of Frank from day one. It's why he refused to let Caspere's death knock him out of the land deal running, it's why he refused to pick up and quit when Jordan asked him to move with whatever they had left, it's why he refused to let Osip get away with fucking him over, etc.

    Yes, ultimately it still killed him, but that's part of the allure of what makes True Detective True Detective. It's not all happy-joy fairy tale endings.
    I get it, I just think at this point in the show, I just wanted him to die already.

    How? Last season ended with Cohle having some kind of semi-religious experience looking up at the sky, where the "heavens" opened for him as the Yellow King tried killing him in Carcosa. You shit on Ani potentially feeling a disturbance, but it's cool that ultra anti-theist Cohle all of a sudden has some kind of divine intervention occur in his life?

    How is it any more logical and consistent with the laws of nature that Cohle experiences a supernatural event, and no one bats an eye, but when Ani does it's incongruent with the brand of TD?
    Cohle had a near death experience. The Yellow King gutted him, no? It's not uncommon for a change of perspective to happen. It's not really the same as Besiredes.

    Because Bezzerides had the right message to go to her with, to allow Jordan to trust her. She had the photograph Frank gave her, and the right "words" to say to let Jordan know that she could be trusted. It's clear they fast-forwarded quite a bit considering she had an infant to care for, so we're probably talking at least a year of them having known one another.
    OK, so I'll flip it on you...It's unrealistic for Cohle to have his "come to Jesus" moment, but it's not unrealistic for Besiredes to fall in love in a few days with Velcoro (after pushing everyone away her entire life), and for Jordan to give a shit a woman who barely knew Frank and Velcoro?



    I'd agree with you that these things in fact occurred for these reasons, yes. I don't agree that they weren't a good story to tell, or were a cop out of any kind.

    Frankly, I feel TD2 was actually a far superior ending to a more mediocre story, versus TD1 being a far superior story to a bullshit ending. So if TD3 is to occur, I think what they really need to do is get Pizzolatta's thoughts and goals out and in the open and then lock down ONE director to flesh the entire thing out who shares the same vision.

    I can't help but feel that the reason for so much of the disconnect (especially early) was the revolving door of directors this season. One episode to the next could often feel like a different show. Probably killed the TD vibe for a lot of people, even though the story itself (the writing) was actually arced so much better than last season.
    TD2 was the perfect storm of crap. The suck begat suck. The acting sucked. The plot was hard to follow and superfluous (did we need Taylor Kitsch at all?). I'm no expert, but I think the directing sucked. That's why the show sucked. If you casted better for Frank, cut out Woodrough completely, maybe then the cast might be strong enough to carry the story. If the story was less scattered, maybe the cast could have overcome it. But it was just too much going wrong at the same time. Some of the interactions with Frank/Jordan, and Woodrough in any form, were just painful to watch.

    I'm no munitions expert, but I'd imagine a handgun is a lot more accurate and deadly than a shotgun in this type of situation. Meaning I think the lethality of the handgun is greater than the lethality of the shotgun, even if the shotgun is designed to inflict a wider range of damage.

    To me, his choice at the end was to actually die. He muttered to himself "find a better place" and then effectively went out in a suicide-by-cop manner. Could he have tried to take a few more with him along the way? Sure, but it's not as though he hadn't already. He killed at least two, if not three of Burris' men before he died.

    Like Frank, he went out on his terms.
    It just really seems like an odd time to give up, after killing half the people coming after you. I could see if reinforcements showed up, or if he were out of ammo. But the point at which he gives up makes no sense to me.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I get it, I just think at this point in the show, I just wanted him to die already.
    Sure. You were already frustrated with the characters, that's understandable.

    I'm just saying, for me, I found it poetic because it all came full circle with the tag line for this season, which was "We Get the World We Deserve".

    Cohle had a near death experience. The Yellow King gutted him, no? It's not uncommon for a change of perspective to happen. It's not really the same as Besiredes.
    Of course it is. They are both intended to be defiances to the laws of nature. The laws of nature dictate that the supernatural simply cannot exist, because it violates every known law of the universe.

    I'm aware that near-death experiences changes peoples perspectives, and I think they were playing off that in both seasons is kind of my point. I don't see Bezzerides' experience as any less a violation of the laws of nature as Cohle's, so what I'm saying is that if you thought it OK that Cohle had this life-altering experience, I don't see how Bezzerides' experience is somehow incongruent with the brand of TD. In both seasons a major character as an experience that makes you question the laws of nature. In Cohle's case it was whether or not life after death exists, or the heavens exist, and in Bezzerides' case, it makes you question the bonds between humans and how far they can stretch or bend or reach.

    Again, just my perspective on it.

    OK, so I'll flip it on you...It's unrealistic for Cohle to have his "come to Jesus" moment, but it's not unrealistic for Besiredes to fall in love in a few days with Velcoro (after pushing everyone away her entire life), and for Jordan to give a shit a woman who barely knew Frank and Velcoro?
    The Cohle/Bezzerides experiences I explained above. As for her falling in love with him, she'd known him for a while and could have, in theory, been falling in love with him over the course of their time together on the case. That time span is actually rather long, months I believe, in the show. And there was some early foreshadowing between the two characters. Moments where they sort of longingly stared at one another, flirted, etc. So it's not that far-fetched they eventually did have sex and fall in love with one another. I interpreted the call he had with her joking about how she'd need a restraining order to keep him from seeing her as the unspoken acknowledgement the two had fallen in love with the other.

    As to Jordan, we've completely fast-forwarded in the timeline, so again, they've had probably a year or longer to know one another. It's not that far-fetched to me to assume that she trusts Bezzerides now, even if she may not have at first. Maybe Bezzerides did a lot of convincing?

    TD2 was the perfect storm of crap. The suck begat suck. The acting sucked. The plot was hard to follow and superfluous (did we need Taylor Kitsch at all?). I'm no expert, but I think the directing sucked. That's why the show sucked. If you casted better for Frank, cut out Woodrough completely, maybe then the cast might be strong enough to carry the story. If the story was less scattered, maybe the cast could have overcome it. But it was just too much going wrong at the same time. Some of the interactions with Frank/Jordan, and Woodrough in any form, were just painful to watch.
    OK, that's all your take on it. I can respect that. I disagree, obviously, but I can respect it.

    And I've had my spats with some of the directing choices, the storylines, etc. I agree Woodrugh's character was almost entirely irrelevant. I think they probably had at least one or two characters who had roles too large than they needed (Frank included). But the overall story, when I step back to look at what was told from A to B, to me, is a less compelling journey, but a more compelling conclusion than S1, which to me was a far more compelling story, with a far less compelling conclusion. In fact, I felt the entire conclusion was a cop out. It felt like I'd watched an M. Night Shyamalan film. The entire time, building, building, building. Then it just falls flat on a big, smelly brown note. I'm sure there are people who'd disagree with my assessment of MNS films, too. They're free to. Maybe someone actually did enjoy The Happening. I can't fathom why, but that's also why I tend not to really care that deeply when someone really dislikes something I enjoyed. I'll say my peace, they'll say theirs, and I usually try to find a common ground. If I can't, which I fear might be the case here for TD2 with you, I'm OK with effectively agreeing to disagree.

    It just really seems like an odd time to give up, after killing half the people coming after you. I could see if reinforcements showed up, or if he were out of ammo. But the point at which he gives up makes no sense to me.
    Personally, I'd have had him get hit a few times along the way, in the leg, the side, whatever. He's bleeding out the entire time, so you really know he's not surviving this, but the entire time, like Frank, he's refusing to die. He's going to make them kill him, and he's going to take as many of them out as possible along the way. I'd probably have had Burris be the one to actually end his life too, after Velcoro killed all his other men. But I don't think the way they did it was terrible either. I'd have given it a B-minus grade.
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