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Phil in Absentia
09-27-2018, 09:01 PM
Single-game samples are incomplete at best and deceitful at worst, and make that doubly so for the preseason. But when David Quinn and his coaching staff look at the video of last nightís game, heís going to see Marc Staal spending an awful lot of time in the defensive zone.

The veteran defenseman got absolutely buried by the Islandersí top line, allowing 14 shot attempts against at five-on-five while the Rangers generated just two themselves. Certainly, this is not all Staalís fault. Kevin Shattenkirk had moments where it was clear he is still working to get to game speed, while three forwards are on the ice who contribute to the defensive side as well.

But Staal himself still did not look good, and in fact he has struggled throughout the preseason. His numbers donít look great, save for some good shifts against a handful of Devilsí teenagers and AHLers. He also made a mess that resulted in a goal once Taylor Hall hit the ice.

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/A6uKv7vtJ_U4pvVabLVbXD246NQ=/0x0:590x326/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:590x326):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/13166111/Staal_Turnover_vs_NJD.jpg

Three preseason games is just that; three preseason games. But thatís the sample size the Rangersí coaching staff has to work with right now. While someone like Kevin Shattenkirk who is coming off an injury, or Mats Zuccarello who has proven himself season-after-season, would get the benefit of the doubt, Staal has earned none.

There were many arguments in Staalís favor that, rightly or wrongly, offered Alain Vigneault plausible deniability. He had been a key part of the defense when the Rangers contended, and the coaching staff trusted him in important games. They were trying to win immediately, and besides, there were no defensemen in the ranks who could step in.

All of that is gone now. The coaching staff is brand new (save for sophomore Lindy Ruff), and Staal holds no nostalgic appeal to them. While the team will certainly try to win every time it steps on the ice, the coaches know they are building towards something bigger than whatever happens in October or November of 2018.


Like any head coach - really, any person no matter his/her job - David Quinn is going to make bad decisions. Heís going to appeal to experience, or emotion, or just straight up make a wrong evaluation. However, he also has the mental fortitude and desire to make decisions that might make other coaches queasy. Staalís presence in the opening night lineup would hardly be a surprise, but if he continues on the path that he has for the last few seasons, then donít be surprised if David Quinn sticks to his word and puts Staal in the press box. Not to show him up, or to make some sort of statement to the team. Rather, because his modus operandi is putting out the six defensemen he believes give him the best chance to win on a given night no matter what their resumes might look like or how heavy that decision might be.

https://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2018/9/27/17908584/rangers-vs-islanders-is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-marc-staal-david-quinn-gettinger-lettieri

jsrangers
09-27-2018, 09:06 PM
imo definitely especially with this season and 2 more at a relatively high aav for the player he's gonna be at this rate.

TwoMinutesForNothing
09-27-2018, 09:55 PM
Don't remember how it works. Can his cap hit be buried in Hartford? I know he'd have to agree to go down.

Sod16
09-27-2018, 10:04 PM
There never has been any question that Staal will not be viable through the end of his contract and that when the end comes, it won't be pretty (or necessarily quick). It could be in a matter of weeks; it could be a year and a half from now. When it comes, it will start with some healthy scratches. There may be some short term rallies from the proud pro, but the decline will continue. There will be no trading his contract, even with assumption of half of it. He most likely will be bought out, and it is just a matter of whether it is after this season or next. All that said, just watch him then sign with a contender and play on the top unit like Girardi!

Phil in Absentia
09-27-2018, 10:12 PM
Don't remember how it works. Can his cap hit be buried in Hartford? I know he'd have to agree to go down.

No, not entirely. Wade Redden rule applies, so the max they can gain is $900K. Also, he has a full No-Movement Clause for exactly this reason. Fat chance he waives it to go to Hartford. You might be able to get him to flip on his No-Trade Clause, though, and move him at 50% retention?

Giacomin
09-27-2018, 10:12 PM
Staal's NMC is now a limited trade clause! Maybe some team suffers an injury and is desperate for D, but doesn't want to give up much. We should jump on shipping him out, first chance we get, regardless of any circumstance here.

Bottom line: Pair him with Pionk and hope he plays the way he did last year. Then be opportunistic, if any interest emerges.

Phil in Absentia
09-27-2018, 10:16 PM
Staal's NMC is now a limited trade clause! Maybe some team suffers an injury and is desperate for D, but doesn't want to give up much. We should jump on shipping him out, first chance we get, regardless of any circumstance here.

Bottom line: Pair him with Pionk and hope he plays the way he did last year. Then be opportunistic, if any interest emerges.

No, it isn't. They are separate clauses. You're conflating a full NTC, which he may or may not still have, with a full NMC, which he definitely still has.

My guess is CapFriendly is doing something similar, because they have him listed as a full NMC throughout:

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/marc-staal

Giacomin
09-27-2018, 10:18 PM
There never has been any question that Staal will not be viable through the end of his contract and that when the end comes, it won't be pretty (or necessarily quick). It could be in a matter of weeks; it could be a year and a half from now. When it comes, it will start with some healthy scratches. There may be some short term rallies from the proud pro, but the decline will continue. There will be no trading his contract, even with assumption of half of it. He most likely will be bought out, and it is just a matter of whether it is after this season or next. All that said, just watch him then sign with a contender and play on the top unit like Girardi!

Yes we knew this wouldn't be pretty, even though Sather was oblivious. But did you have to be so damn pessimistic and bum me/us out? There is more hope than you think. Not every team or GM is as sharp as you give them credit for. There are also teams with tons of cap, some who may value vet presence or think he can come back like his brother did. Just saying.

Giacomin
09-27-2018, 10:23 PM
No, it isn't. They are separate clauses. You're conflating a full NTC, which he may or may not still have, with a full NMC, which he definitely still has.

My guess is CapFriendly is doing something similar, because they have him listed as a full NMC throughout:

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/marc-staal

OK, to clarify. It was my understanding that July 1 the Rangers could now request Staal to produce a list of teams he would accept a trade to. Not sure how many teams he needs to name. Is this incorrect? Anyone have the real deal and details??? For purposes of a trade only.

Pete
09-27-2018, 10:25 PM
Always best to write a take down after the third game of pre-season.

What a hack.

Also, the writer is a hack.

Phil in Absentia
09-27-2018, 10:31 PM
OK, to clarify. It was my understanding that July 1 the Rangers could now request Staal to produce a list of teams he would accept a trade to. Not sure how many teams he needs to name. Is this incorrect? Anyone have the real deal and details??? For purposes of a trade only.

As far as I know, he has a full NMC, meaning he cannot be waived and sent to HFD without his consent. I'm not sure, exactly, what his trade protection is (or that it even matters if he has none).


Always best to write a take down after the third game of pre-season.

You say that like Marc Staal has been problematic for three preason games, and only three preseason games and not the last two-plus years.

Gravesy
09-28-2018, 07:48 AM
Is this the beginning of the end for Marc Staal?

You’d fucking hope so.

Dunny
09-28-2018, 07:53 AM
It's like how Girardi was awful and not good enough to play for the Rangers but was somehow good enough to play a prominent role on the best team in the league.

josh
09-28-2018, 08:34 AM
I didn't think his play was that bad during the pre-season. He was one of the best defenders, last season. They are switching to a structured skating that should benefit his style of play.

I'll re-evaluate after his next shift.

Pete
09-28-2018, 08:46 AM
As far as I know, he has a full NMC, meaning he cannot be waived and sent to HFD without his consent. I'm not sure, exactly, what his trade protection is (or that it even matters if he has none).



You say that like Marc Staal has been problematic for three preason games, and only three preseason games and not the last two-plus years.You say that like he didn't have a good season least year, on a shit show defense.

Phil in Absentia
09-28-2018, 09:07 AM
He didn't. He was OK. Good, in that case, was relative to how awful everyone else was. Like you getting in a seven car pileup and having the least damage. He was still nowhere near worth his cap hit, and was overplayed.

On any decent team, just like his buddy G, he's a No. 6 who should be relied on sparingly.


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Dunny
09-28-2018, 09:10 AM
Except Girardi was more like a #4, on the best team in tbe Conference.

Pete
09-28-2018, 11:09 AM
He didn't. He was OK. Good, in that case, was relative to how awful everyone else was. Like you getting in a seven car pileup and having the least damage. He was still nowhere near worth his cap hit, and was overplayed.

On any decent team, just like his buddy G, he's a No. 6 who should be relied on sparingly.


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Right, but this isn't a decent team. And he's not the reason the rest of the D was bad. Even if he's a mediocre D man...He was still the best D man last year, and the D isn't much better this year. By the time his contract is over, the stud D we drafted will be in the league. That will be the beginning of the end.

Gravesy
09-28-2018, 11:39 AM
On what basis was Staal our best d-man out of interest?

Vodka Drunkenski
09-28-2018, 11:40 AM
Technically the end of his contract will be the end

rmc51
09-28-2018, 12:44 PM
He didn't. He was OK. Good, in that case, was relative to how awful everyone else was. Like you getting in a seven car pileup and having the least damage. He was still nowhere near worth his cap hit, and was overplayed.

On any decent team, just like his buddy G, he's a No. 6 who should be relied on sparingly.


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:repped:

Pete
09-28-2018, 05:48 PM
On what basis was Staal our best d-man out of interest?

On the basis that McD was hurt and traded, Smith was sent down, Skjei was trash, Shattenkirk can't play defense and was hurt or trash, Holden...LOL...

How was he not? Who was better?

Phil in Absentia
09-28-2018, 05:57 PM
Again, "best" is relative to the group. Calling Staal the best out of last year's blue line is like saying that negative $100 is better than negative $200. Yeah, from a strictly mathematical sense, but you're still in the hole by a mile.

Pete
09-28-2018, 06:06 PM
Again, "best" is relative to the group. Calling Staal the best out of last year's blue line is like saying that negative $100 is better than negative $200. Yeah, from a strictly mathematical sense, but you're still in the hole by a mile.

Again, how is this year's defense better than last year's? At worst, he's the third D on the left side, IF Skjei and Smith bounce back...With 2 years left after this one and at 31 years old and the team not in cap trouble...Just not seeing how this is the "beginning of the end".

Phil in Absentia
09-28-2018, 06:56 PM
Again, how is this year's defense better than last year's? At worst, he's the third D on the left side, IF Skjei and Smith bounce back...With 2 years left after this one and at 31 years old and the team not in cap trouble...Just not seeing how this is the "beginning of the end".

It's not. I thought Adam did a pretty good job explaining how it could be the beginning of the end, though. He's positing a question, not making a declaration.

josh
09-28-2018, 07:15 PM
Staal was a serviceable defenseman last season, for any team. He was the only Rangers backliner that played like an NHLer on a consistent basis.


Sure, there was a 7 car pileup, but 6 of those cars are totaled and 1 has a small dent on the passenger door.

Pete
09-28-2018, 07:53 PM
It's not. I thought Adam did a pretty good job explaining how it could be the beginning of the end, though. He's positing a question, not making a declaration.Yeah but this article could have been written 2 years ago or in 2 years by that criteria haha.

josh
09-28-2018, 08:17 PM
I would have picked the hit from his brother or the puck to the eye.
Were those mentioned?

Future
10-02-2018, 01:01 PM
I like how this article uses a clip of Buch being a pansy on the puck to prove that Staal is bad.

Phil in Absentia
10-02-2018, 02:42 PM
I like how this article uses a clip of Buch being a pansy on the puck to prove that Staal is bad.

It sure as hell doesn't absolve Staal. He got beat to a loose puck in the corner — his wheelhouse.

Albatross
10-02-2018, 02:44 PM
drafted at #12 overall? what a bust

Future
10-02-2018, 02:58 PM
It sure as hell doesn't absolve Staal. He got beat to a loose puck in the corner — his wheelhouse.
He didn't get beaten to a loose puck. Buch made a lazy ass play and hung Staal out to dry. Staal maybe mishandled it a bit, but that's a pretty difficult play for a defenseman to make, and he did fine to keep Hall to the outside.

There are about 5 things Buch could have done differently to prevent that, what he did was about the worst play possible.

Fatfrancesa
10-02-2018, 03:04 PM
He didn't get beaten to a loose puck. Buch made a lazy ass play and hung Staal out to dry. Staal maybe mishandled it a bit, but that's a pretty difficult play for a defenseman to make, and he did fine to keep Hall to the outside.

There are about 5 things Buch could have done differently to prevent that, what he did was about the worst play possible.

Said the same thing and got roasted for it. Inexcusable and stupid play by buchnevich with zero upside. Staal has a million examples of his own shit play, that one though is 10000% on buchnevich

Pete
10-02-2018, 03:07 PM
He didn't get beaten to a loose puck. Buch made a lazy ass play and hung Staal out to dry. Staal maybe mishandled it a bit, but that's a pretty difficult play for a defenseman to make, and he did fine to keep Hall to the outside.

There are about 5 things Buch could have done differently to prevent that, what he did was about the worst play possible.


Said the same thing and got roasted for it. Inexcusable and stupid play by buchnevich with zero upside. Staal has a million examples of his own shit play, that one though is 10000% on buchnevich

Agreed. The only thing I blame Staal for is not realizing Buch will make the stupid play with the puck part of the time.

Phil in Absentia
10-02-2018, 05:59 PM
He didn't get beaten to a loose puck. Buch made a lazy ass play and hung Staal out to dry. Staal maybe mishandled it a bit, but that's a pretty difficult play for a defenseman to make, and he did fine to keep Hall to the outside.

There are about 5 things Buch could have done differently to prevent that, what he did was about the worst play possible.

I'm talking about physically. He was physically overpowered for that puck while in his wheelhouse. I also don't disagree that Buch was almost solely to blame on the play.

jjweimar
10-02-2018, 08:56 PM
https://www.nhl.com/rangers/roster

Looks like zucc and Staal have the A on them they haven't announced anything yet

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Future
10-03-2018, 09:09 AM
I'm talking about physically. He was physically overpowered for that puck while in his wheelhouse. I also don't disagree that Buch was almost solely to blame on the play.
He wasn't physically overpowered. Hall blindly swung his stick and got a piece of the puck.

Vodka Drunkenski
10-03-2018, 09:15 AM
That goal was far from Staal's fault. It was all on Buchnevich, that puck is suppose to go up the boards. Not handcuff your defenseman.

Phil in Absentia
10-03-2018, 09:53 AM
He wasn't physically overpowered. Hall blindly swung his stick and got a piece of the puck.

Fine, physically overmatched. Use whatever term you want. You can even chalk it up to sheer luck (given the swing of the stick). The point is that a loose puck along the boards found it's way to Hall's stick, not his. I've already agreed numerous times that Buchnevich caused the entire sequence in the first place. That doesn't absolve Staal's loss of the puck, however.

Future
10-03-2018, 10:12 AM
Fine, physically overmatched. Use whatever term you want. You can even chalk it up to sheer luck (given the swing of the stick). The point is that a loose puck along the boards found it's way to Hall's stick, not his. I've already agreed numerous times that Buchnevich caused the entire sequence in the first place. That doesn't absolve Staal's loss of the puck, however.
Fine. But that happens to every defenseman in the league. It's not something that's indicative of whether or not Staal is good/bad.