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Phil in Absentia
06-17-2018, 09:49 AM
The Rangers have no interest in putting a skeleton squad on the ice in October. Unless there is a dramatic shift this week, Mats Zuccarello is therefore expected to report for duty at training camp heading into the final year of his contract.

https://nypost.com/2018/06/16/inside-the-rangers-makeover-mindset-with-nhl-draft-at-hand/


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Mike
06-17-2018, 10:28 AM
Still plenty of time until camp, but this is looking like more and more suck. They’re bringing back the same assholes who created this dog shit environment. Vesey, Hayes, now Zuc don’t appear to be going anywhere. Well, now you guys will get that tank you finally wanted in order to bring us Lord Stanley.

Phil in Absentia
06-17-2018, 10:32 AM
Hayes and Vesey were both linked to trade talk in the same piece. So I'm not sure there. I'm fine with keeping Zucc, though. He's another guy whose tenacity and style of play can likely help to define and trendset Quinn's plan.


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Vodka Drunkenski
06-17-2018, 10:39 AM
Obviously he will be moved by the deadline for another 1st rounder next year

Mike
06-17-2018, 10:42 AM
Hayes and Vesey were both linked to trade talk in the same piece. So I'm not sure there. I'm fine with keeping Zucc, though. He's another guy whose tenacity and style of play can likely help to define and trendset Quinn's plan.


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5’7, 31 when the season starts, trending down the past 2 years since coming off a stroke.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/bruins/2018/06/16/for-rangers-infusion-youth-and-slew-nhl-draft-picks/M7DySBZmbjP7Ox3L3ODBpK/story.html (https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/bruins/2018/06/16/for-rangers-infusion-youth-and-slew-nhl-draft-
picks/M7DySBZmbjP7Ox3L3ODBpK/story.html)



Definitely a name that I am looking at, saying, ‘This will be good for Jimmy,’ ” said Gorton, who didn’t see the 25-year-old thrive under prior coach Alain Vigneault. “He needs a little bit of a fresh start, an opportunity to play a little more and show what he has . . . so I will be curious to see how David will help Jimmy.”

ThirtyONE
06-17-2018, 02:12 PM
“He will probably stay... unless he doesn’t.” - Brooks

Giacomin
06-17-2018, 02:41 PM
“He will probably stay... unless he doesn’t.” - Brooks
Yes, yes :+1:

Zuc should expect to go to camp, meanwhile all the qualified RFAs should bone up on their college majors cause hockey is apparently in their past.

Phil in Absentia
06-17-2018, 03:08 PM
“He will probably stay... unless he doesn’t.” - Brooks

Barring a dramatic shift is, to me, a journalistic way of saying this won't change without going all in.


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Giacomin
06-17-2018, 03:11 PM
Still plenty of time until camp, but this is looking like more and more suck. They’re bringing back the same assholes who created this dog shit environment. Vesey, Hayes, now Zuc don’t appear to be going anywhere. Well, now you guys will get that tank you finally wanted in order to bring us Lord Stanley.

Didn't know you thought Zuc was "part of the same assholes who created this dog shit environment". I've seen and heard nothing to question Zucs, effort or will to win. Is there something beyond what we Know (stroke, age) or saw on the ice that we should know?

A few may say they want a purposeful tank, but some of the same crew lobby for Kovy and JT.

Mike, what did you expect thus far?
1. Hayes may stay only until we are able to get a significant return. We are not trading him for Fox st8 up. Love him, but that's an overpay.

2. It is usually in the days prior and during the draft that most of the deals occur. Ovy is still hungover.

3. Brooks has nothing on Zuc staying or going. He does say Hayes and Spoon are garnering interest. So if you are trusting Brooks you have that.

4. Do you expect teams to be clamoring for Vesey?

5. Can't trade everyone. Already dumped one of the 'assholes', choosing not to give him a shot with a new coach. Some guys do need to get a fresh start and time with Quinn. Some by default. Doesn't mean we can't move them down the road.

6. No one including Brooks addresses the idea that our trades may be predicated on what interests other teams. We have to get reasonable value for our assets. There is no deadline. The best we can do is field offers or inquire about other teams assets and offer a pool of assets from which to choose. If Vesey commands little in return, we need to put our energy in him becoming a better player under a new coach.

We should believe the team is trying to get better and mgmt is talking to other teams. Yet, no particular player or pick must be traded now. This is why I started the thread on how we might change the way we go about making a trade(s) during this draft period. Rather than foist a player or two on another team, see what interests them from an atypically large pool of assets.

phillyb™
06-17-2018, 03:27 PM
Zucc's our captain for the next 8 years, y'all buggin.

The Dude
06-17-2018, 03:37 PM
Didn't know you thought Zuc was "part of the same assholes who created this dog shit environment". I've seen and heard nothing to question Zucs, effort or will to win. Is there something beyond what we Know (stroke, age) or saw on the ice that we should know?

A few may say they want a purposeful tank, but some of the same crew lobby for Kovy and JT.

Mike, what did you expect thus far?
1. Hayes may stay only until we are able to get a significant return. We are not trading him for Fox st8 up. Love him, but that's an overpay.

2. It is usually in the days prior and during the draft that most of the deals occur. Ovy is still hungover.

3. Brooks has nothing on Zuc staying or going. He does say Hayes and Spoon are garnering interest. So if you are trusting Brooks you have that.

4. Do you expect teams to be clamoring for Vesey?

5. Can't trade everyone. Already dumped one of the 'assholes', choosing not to give him a shot with a new coach. Some guys do need to get a fresh start and time with Quinn. Some by default. Doesn't mean we can't move them down the road.

6. No one including Brooks addresses the idea that our trades may be predicated on what interests other teams. We have to get reasonable value for our assets. There is no deadline. The best we can do is field offers or inquire about other teams assets and offer a pool of assets from which to choose. If Vesey commands little in return, we need to put our energy in him becoming a better player under a new coach.

We should believe the team is trying to get better and mgmt is talking to other teams. Yet, no particular player or pick must be traded now. This is why I started the thread on how we might change the way we go about making a trade(s) during this draft period. Rather than foist a player or two on another team, see what interests them from an atypically large pool of assets.

Sorry for being lazy, I don't feel like finding the thread, but weren't you suggesting Calgary would want to move Hamilton so they could get a first round pick and more importantly make room for Fox? Or something along those lines?

I know nothing about Fox, but if he's considered the replacement for Hamilton, I sure as shit deal Hayes for him. A potential top six RH defenseman whom can step in as soon as this year? What else does Calgary want? Give em Vesey too. Moves like that are what I feel are part of a rebuild. Keeping Hayes is not. Ditch him now. Cash out.

Giacomin
06-17-2018, 05:06 PM
Sorry for being lazy, I don't feel like finding the thread, but weren't you suggesting Calgary would want to move Hamilton so they could get a first round pick and more importantly make room for Fox? Or something along those lines?

I know nothing about Fox, but if he's considered the replacement for Hamilton, I sure as shit deal Hayes for him. A potential top six RH defenseman whom can step in as soon as this year? What else does Calgary want? Give em Vesey too. Moves like that are what I feel are part of a rebuild. Keeping Hayes is not. Ditch him now. Cash out.

Yeah here, see Post #2 and #13.
(http://www.blueshirtsbrotherhood.com/showthread.php?20438-A-New-Approach-Ahead-of-the-Draft-Regarding-Trades)

Though your missing important nuance. The bigger picture is Calg has Hamilton and others, plus 2 real RHD prospects. If they decide to keep Hamilton then the kids are excess.

Andersson is ready now and Fox is ready as soon as Harvard's season ends. Two years max if he wants to graduate Harvard. Calgary want to make some moves. They are limited w/o high picks the next 2 years. They would even like to recoup a pick or two.

Since Fox (from NY) is looking like he may not sign, Hayes would be an overpay. There are plenty of teams who will gives us good value for Hayes. Since Fox is unsigned and not going to help anyone this year, he doesn't command that value from anyone. There's risk. He was a 3rd pick so I was suggesting pick 48 and 3rd. Or a guy like Names or Spooner, instead of the picks.

Hamilton is a whole different package and would require more and better assets. If they'd rather do something with us that includes Andersson, that works too. Less upside, but he'd be a solid defensive fixture here and he is ready for the show. Even Kylington, the LHD behind Valimaki could be an interesting prospect to consider. Not like the RHDs though.

Giacomin
06-17-2018, 05:22 PM
You want to get rid of Hayes and grab our #1 RHD? Not saying they are on the market.

Hayes (or pick 26), Devil's 2nd, Bruin's 3rd, and Tampa's 2019 2nd (or Vesey) for

Hamilton
or
Trouba

Not saying Jets or Calgary are even interested in something around this structure, but this is the kind of package it will take for a guy like this. More importantly, if we are trading Hayes or a 1st plus multiple 2nd rounders, I want a young established top line, top pair in return.

Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc
06-18-2018, 03:16 AM
Still plenty of time until camp, but this is looking like more and more suck. They’re bringing back the same assholes who created this dog shit environment. Vesey, Hayes, now Zuc don’t appear to be going anywhere. Well, now you guys will get that tank you finally wanted in order to bring us Lord Stanley.

ehm, so zuc is a problem now? okeyyy.

Mike
06-18-2018, 03:26 AM
ehm, so zuc is a problem now? okeyyy.

Certainly not part of the future solution, so yeah, he should go.

Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc
06-18-2018, 04:17 AM
That's not the same as being one of the "assholes who created this dog shit environment".

Kevin
06-18-2018, 06:24 AM
I think Zucc will fetch more at the trade deadline 2019 then he does now. Hold on to him and hope he's a little ball of fury again then reap the rewards later.

Gravesy
06-18-2018, 07:02 AM
Yeah I feel the same way.
We should keep him around for now, and then reassess at the deadline.

Mike
06-18-2018, 08:02 AM
I think Zucc will fetch more at the trade deadline 2019 then he does now. Hold on to him and hope he's a little ball of fury again then reap the rewards later.

Not if his production continues to drop

Mike
06-18-2018, 08:05 AM
That's not the same as being one of the "assholes who created this dog shit environment".

Well, you never know ....

Pete
06-18-2018, 08:22 AM
Well, you never know ....Zuccarello stock dropped in my mind when he was quoted as saying they're not good enough to compete with teams like Winnipeg.

Yea...it's true...but that's not what a veteran player on a young team should be saying to the press.

Giacomin
06-18-2018, 08:46 AM
Well, you never know ....

Enlighten us.

Vodka Drunkenski
06-18-2018, 09:50 AM
Pete just did

Giacomin
06-18-2018, 10:07 AM
Pete just did

That's what Mike is referring to? Isn't mgmt guilty of being just as honest?

If so, I'll give Zuc a pass for that. I'm sure everything was pretty surreal on the team, given the letter then all the trades for futures. A moment of honesty that didn't throw any individual under the bus does not negate being a positive attitude, hard worker, guy who fires people up in practice and games, etc

Pete
06-18-2018, 12:25 PM
Well if you're going to trade Miller because his frustration was manifesting itself publicly, and then keep Zuccarello who is a veteran and wears a letter...Then that's awfully hypocritical.

Flynn
06-18-2018, 12:35 PM
Well if you're going to trade Miller because his frustration was manifesting itself publicly, and then keep Zuccarello who is a veteran and wears a letter...Then that's awfully hypocritical.

Zuc made a shitty comment (that was 110% correct)... If he has a pattern of those, I'd agree. People say things when they are frustrated that probably would have come out with a little more polish under different circumstances. Had he said "we don't work hard enough" or "play smart enough" to beat the Jets its a non story. Semantics really

On Miller- from what we have read, his attitude has ebbed and flowed for some time.. Also, the compete level might not have been what it needed to be on a nightly basis.

Giacomin
06-18-2018, 12:46 PM
In case that was directed at me... I assumed Miller would get a shot with a new coach and was mostly interested in trading the UFAs. Mike and someone else implied mgmt thought he was "too far gone" and a new coach would not change things enough here.

That said, I was fine with trading Miller, but I would have liked more in return. I'm also Ok trading or keeping Zuc. I'd like to move him, but the return needs to be there.

I'm looking at trading differently this offseason. There are a group of players we can bring back with a new coach or trade. There are extra picks and prospects. None of them need to be traded, but any of them should be traded, if a team has real interest. Obviously that team has a piece we like a lot and can build with.

Hayes, Zuc, Spoon, Names, Shatty, Vesey, Staal, Smith, Belesky can all go. But the further you are on the left, the more I want in return.

So Nashty
06-18-2018, 12:49 PM
I might be mis-remembering but did Miller not have issues with Torts as well? And the story was that he was not a popular guy in the locker room as well.

In terms of keeping Zucc... why wouldn’t you? Guy plays heart and soul every game and puts up decent points on a cap friendly contract. Unless you’re being offered something ridiculous for him you keep him.


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Pete
06-18-2018, 01:06 PM
I just don't really see the point of keeping Zucc, regardless of anything.

Dunny
06-18-2018, 01:10 PM
That's where I'm at, why is he still here, he's a rapidly declining free-lancer, on an expiring deal. Just move on, already.

josh
06-18-2018, 01:17 PM
It's a cute story, but that's about it, at this point.

ThirtyONE
06-18-2018, 01:25 PM
I just don't really see the point of keeping Zucc, regardless of anything.

Exactly. Whether it's this summer or next season, he should be moved.

Vodka Drunkenski
06-18-2018, 01:37 PM
I just don't really see the point of keeping Zucc, regardless of anything.

Should've moved him at the deadline, could've gotten another 1st rounder for him IMO.

ThirtyONE
06-18-2018, 01:41 PM
Should've moved him at the deadline, could've gotten another 1st rounder for him IMO.

Still can. And still can in next years draft too. I'd love to send him somewhere in a deal with Ottawa or Edmonton because that 1st could be a lottery pick.

josh
06-18-2018, 02:25 PM
Should've moved him at the deadline, could've gotten another 1st rounder for him IMO.

I don't think he gets you a first rounder. Not at last deadline, not now. Maybe this deadline if someone is desperate.
He's a niche player. It would need to be the right situation for a team to be trading for him.

I'd guess we'd see a Hagelin-like return - a change of scenery guy with high upside getting 1 last shot in the NHL as a top-9 forward.

Giacomin
06-18-2018, 02:25 PM
I agree with you guys, just not sending him away at a discount. He has value and we want fair value back.

The Dude
06-18-2018, 05:02 PM
Yeah I feel the same way.
We should keep him around for now, and then reassess at the deadline.

Meh, he played terrible hockey when it was announced that the team was in sell mode. If he knows he's being dangled out for trade, his production and game will be pretty weak. Do the guy a favor and deal him now, so he can stay with one team for the season.

Pete
06-18-2018, 06:08 PM
He can easily get a first rounder at the deadline. Team's fighting for points get a guy who's great in the shootout, good on PP and can PK.

josh
06-18-2018, 06:11 PM
He can easily get a first rounder at the deadline. Team's fighting for points get a guy who's great in the shootout, good on PP and can PK.
So, you think management plans on keeping him around, then?

“Easily” would mean there were bidders. Not sure why they wouldn’t take it.

josh
06-18-2018, 06:12 PM
He can easily get a first rounder at the deadline. Team's fighting for points get a guy who's great in the shootout, good on PP and can PK.
So, you think management plans on keeping him around, then?

“Easily” would mean there were bidders. Not sure why they wouldn’t take it.

Pete
06-18-2018, 06:17 PM
So, you think management plans on keeping him around, then?

“Easily” would mean there were bidders. Not sure why they wouldn’t take it.I'm just saying what he can get. He's not getting you Emerson Etem. He'll get a first, easily imo.

josh
06-18-2018, 06:37 PM
I will gladly bet you on that!

Winner gets to call you a name of their choice.

Pete
06-18-2018, 07:02 PM
I will gladly bet you on that!

Winner gets to call you a name of their choice.You're on!

Wait, wut?

rangers02
06-18-2018, 07:43 PM
You will always get good performance from Zucs! Good numbers on the ice, and Leadership off the Ice. And he needs to ensure that he is a leader and the stronghold of our Team. But it will depend on how much he will be of worth

https://foreverblueshirts.com/what-is-mats-zuccarello-worth-for-the-rangers-at-the-draft/

ThirtyONE
06-18-2018, 07:51 PM
You will always get good performance from Zucs! Good numbers on the ice, and Leadership off the Ice. And he needs to ensure that he is a leader and the stronghold of our Team. But it will depend on how much he will be of worth

https://foreverblueshirts.com/what-is-mats-zuccarello-worth-for-the-rangers-at-the-draft/

Again. Overvaluing what we have. Zucc's numbers are okay. They're not good. He's 100th in the league. I mean... c'mon. His leadership off the ice is a completely unknown factor by fans. Big time moves need to happen here. This team sucks.

AliveIn94
06-18-2018, 08:22 PM
In case that was directed at me... I assumed Miller would get a shot with a new coach and was mostly interested in trading the UFAs. Mike and someone else implied mgmt thought he was "too far gone" and a new coach would not change things enough here.

That said, I was fine with trading Miller, but I would have liked more in return. I'm also Ok trading or keeping Zuc. I'd like to move him, but the return needs to be there.

I'm looking at trading differently this offseason. There are a group of players we can bring back with a new coach or trade. There are extra picks and prospects. None of them need to be traded, but any of them should be traded, if a team has real interest. Obviously that team has a piece we like a lot and can build with.

Hayes, Zuc, Spoon, Names, Shatty, Vesey, Staal, Smith, Belesky can all go. But the further you are on the left, the more I want in return.We just signed Shatty for 4 yrs in the prime of his career, even if we miss the playoffs he could be a valuable teacher for PP quaterbacking. I hope he isn't our first choice to get rid of.

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Giacomin
06-19-2018, 01:42 AM
Don't worry, I don't think they'll try to trade Shatty or Staal. I just think they should. Doubt there'd be many/any takers anyway.

Since Quinn may be closer to Shatty then anyone else on the team, he'll get a chance. If he then gets traded, then you know Shatty can't be the player the team needs/expected.

Gravesy
06-19-2018, 02:46 AM
Meh, he played terrible hockey when it was announced that the team was in sell mode. If he knows he's being dangled out for trade, his production and game will be pretty weak. Do the guy a favor and deal him now, so he can stay with one team for the season.

Well, he’s now playing for his last payday so I expect him to be fairly motivated.

The Dude
06-19-2018, 06:44 PM
Well, he’s now playing for his last payday so I expect him to be fairly motivated.

Or he could take it easy and leave for the KHL and get paid.

ThirtyONE
06-19-2018, 09:57 PM
I thought he was terrible all year... Again, no one is exempt from this problem.

Kevin
06-19-2018, 10:49 PM
Again. Overvaluing what we have. Zucc's numbers are okay. They're not good. He's 100th in the league. I mean... c'mon. His leadership off the ice is a completely unknown factor by fans. Big time moves need to happen here. This team sucks.

In line with his contract, he's done very well. Even this last year, which was definitely a down year for him, he still put up 53 points. Not great by any means but respectable in light of his contract.

RangersIn7
06-20-2018, 01:07 AM
He’s a popular player and seems to be well liked by teammates. But his production is only about above-average to good and he gives very little defensively, plus no PK. They should keep him around for now, and if they’re getting calls on him from mid-January, find the best deal you can and do it. Want him back next summer, you’ll get him as long as his price is reasonable.

Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc
06-20-2018, 04:07 AM
He’s a popular player and seems to be well liked by teammates. But his production is only about above-average to good and he gives very little defensively, plus no PK. They should keep him around for now, and if they’re getting calls on him from mid-January, find the best deal you can and do it. Want him back next summer, you’ll get him as long as his price is reasonable.

What? Zuc is a solid defensive player and averaged over a minute per game on the PK.

He's led the team in points the last 3 seasons and scored over 50 points in everyone of them. He's a good locker room guy, good competitor, hard worker and he's on a good contract. If we dont get atleast a 1st for him, there is no need to trade him.

Mike
06-20-2018, 05:26 AM
What? Zuc is a solid defensive player and averaged over a minute per game on the PK.

He's led the team in points the last 3 seasons and scored over 50 points in everyone of them. He's a good locker room guy, good competitor, hard worker and he's on a good contract. If we dont get atleast a 1st for him, there is no need to trade him.

I don’t agree with the other guy’s post, but:

Scott Gomez once led the Rangers in scoring too. Just sayin’

Define good locker room guy. Would you say that means getting along with at least 15 of the 20 guys in the room? Maybe that’s not the case here.

Good competitor and hard worker describes 85% of the NHL.

There’s absolutely a need to trade him without getting a first.
1. Other good deals could be made than just getting a first.
2. He’s not part of the Rangers future plan. The only guy that’s safe in riding this shit out is Hank, and he controls his own destiny.

He’ll be 31 when the season starts. His numbers have dropped the past 2 seasons. And who knows what kind of deal he’s going to want. It wouldn’t shock me if he gets traded at the deadline, and ends up signing on the Devils or Isles the following year.

Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc
06-20-2018, 07:07 AM
And Im not against that, actually Im for trading him at this moment (my heart :(). Im just arguing that if he were to be traded for just picks, he's easily worth a 1st. If he's traded in a deal for a RHD, then fine, but Im not saying yes to Etem and a 3rd just to get him away, he still brings leadership and other qualities that's important to have on a team, even in a rebuild.

Mike
06-20-2018, 08:08 AM
And Im not against that, actually Im for trading him at this moment (my heart :(). Im just arguing that if he were to be traded for just picks, he's easily worth a 1st. If he's traded in a deal for a RHD, then fine, but Im not saying yes to Etem and a 3rd just to get him away, he still brings leadership and other qualities that's important to have on a team, even in a rebuild.

Yeah, he’s gotta get a better return than a 3rd liner and a 3rd rounder.

Future
06-20-2018, 09:20 AM
Yeah, he’s gotta get a better return than a 3rd liner and a 3rd rounder.
I don't think a middle-six player and a 3rd rounder is that far off if the player is young. If, say, the Stars were interested, I don't think a player like Jason Dickinson and a 3rd is a bad starting point.

The conversation is probably a bit different at the deadline, but the reality is that he's a 30+ declining player, like you said. Even if a team thinks that, with the right linemates, he can give you 60+ points, they aren't going to pay that rate. Zucc's value is a 15-goal, 50-point player, and that's not going to bring a massive haul.

Respecttheblue
06-20-2018, 09:22 AM
Certainly not part of the future solution, so yeah, he should go.

That future is a long way off. There's an interim period we're almost certainly looking at where we're going to need some veteran players who play #THERIGHTWAY to show the kids how it should be done on the ice. I think Zucc merits that. There are not too many on the team who do that -- Kreider, Zucc, maybe Fast, ... maybe Vesey, when he feels like having a good hair day.

I think your wish to see Zucc traded will happen eventually around the trade deadline, if he doesn't come to terms on a low-cost contract -- or if the NYR feel they have enough promising young players that someone can take his spot...so I would not get frustrated that he's not gone sooner, when it'll probably happen later, anyway.

I for one will be very sorry to see him go; he's been a good part of what's been right about this team through those "successful" years and arguably a major spark that reignited the team when it was foundering in offensive limbo some time around 2013.


I don't think a middle-six player and a 3rd rounder is that far off if the player is young. If, say, the Stars were interested, I don't think a player like Jason Dickinson and a 3rd is a bad starting point.

The conversation is probably a bit different at the deadline, but the reality is that he's a 30+ declining player, like you said. Even if a team thinks that, with the right linemates, he can give you 60+ points, they aren't going to pay that rate. Zucc's value is a 15-goal, 50-point player, and that's not going to bring a massive haul.

If he's actually really in decline — rather than based on an evaluation of one bad year with a really bad team — then maybe he's 15/50, but on a contender, with a good goalie and a already strong offense, he could be a very desirable piece. There are plenty of 33yr old+ players who get picked up for what they can bring. Arguably Zucc may have some more good years left in him, although maybe not enough to see a NYR contending renaissance. Oh well. Sure would have like to see him hoist a cup in our jersey, but that is looking like a long, long, long shot.

The Dude
06-20-2018, 08:03 PM
If they wait till the deadline, and he's producing at that 50 point rate, I can see a slightly less than Nash return. That contract is the biggest selling point for the production.

Pete
06-21-2018, 06:17 AM
Wasn't Nash a 15 goal 50 point player at the time we traded him? I wouldn't say a first is out of the question at all.

Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc
06-21-2018, 06:28 AM
At the deadline he should atleast get a 1st. I guess they'll be asking for 1st, roster player, good prospect (as with Nash) and settle with everything including a 1st.

The question is if they actually trade him or maybe signs him for 2-3 years if he wants to.