PDA

View Full Version : Article: Rangers Accelerated Rebuild is Dangerously Ambitious



Phil in Absentia
04-13-2018, 02:46 PM
While there’s no ironclad blueprint for how to build a Cup-contender, most hockey experts would agree that strong drafting and even two or three strategically sacrificed seasons—ordinarily referred to as “tanking”—offer a rebuilding club the highest chance of acquiring the kind of game-breaking talent needed to build a team around. Combine that with key free agent signings and/or an opportunistic trade or two, and you’re running for glory.

Yet the Rangers appear to have a much faster pace in mind. One that, for all intents and purposes, would theoretically see the team advance from eighth-worst in the league to a contender as soon as next year. It’s a lofty goal, not without significant risk, but by every measure appears to be the path they’re set on taking – consequences be damned.


Yet they’re also directly linked to Kovalchuk, and pending free agents John Tavares and Erik Karlsson. Acquiring just one would give them a jump off the line. If they could land more than one, they’d red line the team’s proverbial tachometer.

“… I don’t think we’re really going to know until the summer, after the draft and free agency, what kind of thing the Rangers are really looking at. I think there’s a chance they go for one or two bigger guys and try to fill in with the kids and see if the enthusiasm can carry them over,” [Elliotte] Friedman went on to say.


Tavares and Kovalchuk can be had for nothing more than money. Both will be unrestricted free agents (UFA) this summer. Karlsson, however, would cost the team a considerable collection of assets given he’s a full year away from free agency. It’s here, most of all, that the Rangers’ rebuild, insofar as traditional rebuilds are defined, appears to jump the shark if Karlsson remains a target heading into next year.

Youth movements require the presence of veterans, often high-priced ones, to serve in much-needed leadership roles. Not to mention the added benefit they bring in helping clubs, especially those with a high number of low-priced entry-level contracts (ELC), in meeting the salary cap floor. But acquiring Karlsson, in particular, would cost the Rangers a haul of valuable, cost-controlled assets. Assets they could otherwise keep to theoretically draft a younger version of him in June.

https://thehockeywriters.com/rangers-accelerated-rebuild-dangerous/

Gravesy
04-13-2018, 03:46 PM
I’m on board with.
Tavares? Yeah, I can see why we’d go there.
Kovy can keep us ticking over for a few years.
Karlsson makes very little sense to me at this point. Seems like a bit of a vanity project if I’m brutally honest.

paddynyc
04-13-2018, 04:14 PM
I don't see how the Rangers can financially sign Karlsson and Tavares considering both would be looking in the neighbourhood of $10M per year. My choice would be Tavares and I'm still unsure on Kovy for anything more than 2 years. Can't wait for all the drama to begin on Karlsson and Tavares when the season ends.

BlairBettsBlocksEverything
04-13-2018, 04:23 PM
I don't see how the Rangers can financially sign Karlsson and Tavares considering both would be looking in the neighbourhood of $10M per year. My choice would be Tavares and I'm still unsure on Kovy for anything more than 2 years. Can't wait for all the drama to begin on Karlsson and Tavares when the season ends.

While I don't disagree, part of me (most of me) wants to just say fuck it lets just see what happens.

Sod16
04-13-2018, 06:05 PM
Serious hockey people I know thought the Karlsson we saw in the playoffs last year was the biggest game changer in the league. I simply amazing player. This year he's -25? I don't know what's up beyond coming off surgery and playing for a weak team. Whatever his NMC status, Karlsson has pretty much unfettered say in where he goes, because no one will give up the farm for him unless he's re-signed. I haven't heard any indications of where he might want to go.

Morphinity
04-13-2018, 06:30 PM
While I don't disagree, part of me (most of me) wants to just say fuck it lets just see what happens.

It really is the YOLO option

Mike
04-13-2018, 09:47 PM
This is what I’m hearing:
They’re looking to move Vesey and Hayes

Kovy 3 mill
Tavares 10 ( will push for JT the hardest )
Karlsson 10 ( 2019-20 )

Phil in Absentia
04-13-2018, 10:22 PM
This is what I’m hearing:
They’re looking to move Vesey and Hayes

Kovy 3 mill
Tavares 10 ( will push for JT the hardest )
Karlsson 10 ( 2019-20 )

Not completely back-breaking. But Hayes, minimum, would have to be shipped out this summer to make room. Even with a rising cap.

fletch
04-13-2018, 11:05 PM
I don't love acquiring a 34 year old Kovalchuk. He's a piece if you are trying to contend quickly.

Are we trying to rebuild by developing youth (multiple years), or reloading for next year?

Long live the King
04-13-2018, 11:51 PM
This is what I’m hearing:
They’re looking to move Vesey and Hayes

Kovy 3 mill
Tavares 10 ( will push for JT the hardest )
Karlsson 10 ( 2019-20 )When you say Karlsson 10 (2019-2020) does that imply waiting to target him in free agency and not trading for him?

Sent from my [device_name] using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk

Mike
04-14-2018, 05:36 AM
When you say Karlsson 10 (2019-2020) does that imply waiting to target him in free agency and not trading for him?

Sent from my [device_name] using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk

No, sorry ... trade for him now.

Fatfrancesa
04-14-2018, 08:32 AM
Awful organization.

Rosenvold
04-14-2018, 10:00 AM
We all agree that the Rangers need elite talent. Now they have a chance to acquire elite talent. What's the problem?

There are some clear examples of teams winning from long rebuilds (Chicago and Pittsburgh), but just as many teams who are fighting very hard to get out of a rebuilding slump (Arizona, Buffalo, Vancouver). It's very, very hard to get a 1st round, and even if you get a 1st rounder there is no guarantee that it's going to pan out as a franchise player.

Karlsson and Tavares, on the other hand, are 100% sure to pan out as franchise players. They would automatically make Rangers contenders for the next 6-8 years. Obviously you try to get such players when they are available and you have the cap space. It's a no-brainer, but obviously very, very hard to pull off.

What would it take to acquire Karlsson? Hayes, Zuccarello, Hajek and the 2019 first? Even if you give up that much you are still left with a reasonably stocked farm system through the 2017 and 2018 drafts, so I don't see how that harms the future that much. Karlsson+Tavares are only 27 and will be elite players for many years to come.

Long live the King
04-14-2018, 10:18 AM
Not completely back-breaking. But Hayes, minimum, would have to be shipped out this summer to make room. Even with a rising cap.

All depends on what Ottawa would want. In addition to Hayes, probably also Zucc. With them looking to move Vesey, we may be able to keep Spooner and Names (depends on their price). So what does Ottawa want for Karlsson, and can we offset that price by trading say Hayes, Zucc, Vesey, and/or Spooner/Names.

Then you have the added wrinkle next summer of needing to move Staal or Smith in order to resign Karlsson.

Pete
04-14-2018, 11:06 AM
Any Karlsson deal will have to invovle taking the Ryan contract, I'm almost certain.

I'm just not sure I see them backing off that condition.

Phil in Absentia
04-14-2018, 11:11 AM
Which would make any deal to the Rangers damn near impossible. They'd have to gut the roster again. At least two of Hayes, Zucc, Namestnikov, Spooner, Vesey traded. Staal buy out, too?


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Dunny
04-14-2018, 11:24 AM
The new coach is going to have quite the job waiting for him.

I don't understand the Karlsson angle. It's not a winnable trade, and I'm not keen on relying on soft perimiter players like Spooner and Namestnikov to win hockey games.

Fatfrancesa
04-14-2018, 12:12 PM
The problem here is only Karlsson. Ottawa has no use for zucc or really even Hayes. They are rebuilding in the traditional way especially being a small market team that always spends well under the cap. They want prospects and players on elcs. Zucc, spooner, Namestnikov, and Hayes don’t fit that bill. A more likely scenario is that they would want Andersson, Buchnevich,or chytil, the rangers first pick this year, next year 1st, and another decent prospect maybe Hajek or Howden.
If not that something close to it. The rangers are rebuilding signing Karlsson would be hard enough. Why if the rangers are rebuilding would this make sense?

Tavares really doesn’t make sense either but that I can at least see being that they wouldn’t be giving up any young talent just money.

Pete
04-14-2018, 01:14 PM
Which is why they should just wait for Karlsson.

Mike
04-14-2018, 02:41 PM
Which is why they should just wait for Karlsson.

But Karlsson wants out now, so if he gets moved elsewhere, that team will lock him up.

What I’m about to post right now may seem outrageous, but I hear his wife is not exactly well liked by the other wives and or girlfriends. Some may not believe that’s a reason to ask to be traded, but personal off the ice relationships, or lack there of, definitely plays a role. At the younger levels players avoid others because of parents, it just expands to wives and gfs as they get older.

Pete
04-14-2018, 02:45 PM
But Karlsson wants out now, so if he gets moved elsewhere, that team will lock him up.
I'm not saying it won't happen, but the Rangers would about incredibly stupid to give up what it would take to get him (and the Ryan contract), when they can get him for nothing next summer.


What I’m about to post right now may seem outrageous, but I hear his wife is not exactly well liked by the other wives and or girlfriends. Some may not believe that’s a reason to ask to be traded, but personal off the ice relationships, or lack there of, definitely plays a role. At the younger levels players avoid others because of parents, it just expands to wives and gfs as they get older.They just lost a child, you'd think these bitches would have some empathy.

Dunny
04-14-2018, 02:48 PM
Women hate each other.

Vodka Drunkenski
04-14-2018, 03:02 PM
So much for building through the draft

Puck Head
04-14-2018, 03:05 PM
Zero interest in trading for Karlsson, and as mentioned....Sens won’t be interested in players such as Hayes and Zucc.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Mike
04-14-2018, 03:48 PM
I'm not saying it won't happen, but the Rangers would about incredibly stupid to give up what it would take to get him (and the Ryan contract), when they can get him for nothing next summer.

They just lost a child, you'd think these bitches would have some empathy.


Women hate each other.

Yeah

Yup

Mike
04-14-2018, 03:50 PM
So much for building through the draft

They will, but all contenders have studs. The Rangers aren’t going to wait too see if any of their picks end up to be super talents. Can’t blame em, really.

Vodka Drunkenski
04-14-2018, 04:00 PM
They will, but all contenders have studs. The Rangers aren’t going to wait too see if any of their picks end up to be super talents. Can’t blame em, really.

I agree but I don’t think they are close to contending to make a signing and or trade like these right now.

ThirtyONE
04-14-2018, 04:08 PM
I agree but I don’t think they are close to contending to make a signing and or trade like these right now.

Hard to say because it sounds like they're planning on building a whole new team from scratch.

Mike
04-14-2018, 04:51 PM
Hard to say because it sounds like they're planning on building a whole new team from scratch.

Yup, we’ll see how it goes.

Giacomin
04-14-2018, 05:43 PM
Karlsson makes the least sense. So much risk in long monster contract, given the significant injury that he hasn't completely recovered from. Then to give up all those rebuilding assets and kill all cap flexibility? Is Sather getting ambitious and stirring up trouble? Ottawa wants a bunch of cheap valuable assets. Think we really should be a buyer? How does this make fucking sense?

I'd rather keep all our picks, young assets and cap flexibility and draft Adam Boqvist.

Fatfrancesa
04-14-2018, 06:00 PM
It doesn’t make any sense. It’s typical rangers nonsense. I hear the rumor and dismiss it as the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. Then McKenzie and Friedman come out and say they are looking at Karlsson. Just when you think we may finally have an adult running things you hear shit like this. Seriously being the gm of the rangers is like playing a video game except you can’t just star over by pressing a button.

ThirtyONE
04-14-2018, 07:02 PM
It doesn’t make any sense. It’s typical rangers nonsense. I hear the rumor and dismiss it as the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. Then McKenzie and Friedman come out and say they are looking at Karlsson. Just when you think we may finally have an adult running things you hear shit like this. Seriously being the gm of the rangers is like playing a video game except you can’t just star over by pressing a button.

I don't think anyone is advocating trading the #8 pick or anything like that. If they want some of our bad players, they can have them. It's not worth getting worked up about because we don't even have any rumors of what might be offered. Hayes, Vesey, Zucc, DeAngelo, whoever. I don't care what roster players go the other way. I'm not too worried about them trading picks. Obviously, I think they will trade a few at the draft but I think they'll be picking high.

Giacomin
04-14-2018, 07:40 PM
I don't think anyone is advocating trading the #8 pick or anything like that. If they want some of our bad players, they can have them. It's not worth getting worked up about because we don't even have any rumors of what might be offered. Hayes, Vesey, Zucc, DeAngelo, whoever. I don't care what roster players go the other way. I'm not too worried about them trading picks. Obviously, I think they will trade a few at the draft but I think they'll be picking high.

Well Ottawa is not going to want any RFAs or real salary, so this is not going to work. So it will require at least our #8 plus 2 other hot young assets or both our later 1sts instead of #8. Not to mention, the issue of taking Ryan's salary.

The whole shindig is gonna cost too much. Not the way to build this time. Plus, there is a better solution. I'm not inclined to trade Hayes, especially with so many other assets to trade. But if one wants to trade Hayes and Zuc and Shat'Angelo and whoever plus a late 1 or 2nd, we still can.

There will be teams struggling with the cap in the offseason, let's be one of the few teams able to pounce on Panarin. There will be teams who were not in the market at the deadline willing to offer us a good return for guys that our new coach (and mgmt) thinks does not fit.

Also, some trading will have to be done in season. Shatty probably needs to show he's healthy. Vesey needs a chance with a new coach. He also needs to raise his value, if we want anything worthwhile in return. Hayes may have erased any doubt at the end of the season, but I expect his trade value will be better in January than currently. I'm not giving away an excellent young 3C. Now if Calgary comes seeking Hayes, with Hamilton as a possibility, if we add a later 1st and the Devils 2nd, then we have to think hard.

ThirtyONE
04-14-2018, 07:47 PM
Well Ottawa is not going to want any RFAs or real salary, so this is not going to work. So it will require at least our #8 plus 2 other hot young assets or both our later 1sts instead of #8. It is gonna cost too much, not the way to build this time. Plus, there is a better solution. I'm not inclined to trade Hayes, especially with so many other assets to trade. But if one wants to trade Hayes and Zuc and Shat'Angelo and whoever plus a late 1 or 2nd, we still can.

There will be teams struggling with the cap in the offseason, let's be one of the few teams able to pounce on Panarin. There will be teams who were not in the market at the deadline willing to offer us a good return for guys that our new coach (and mgmt) thinks does not fit.

Also, some trading will have to be done in season. Shatty probably needs to show he's healthy. Vesey needs a chance with a new coach. He also needs to raise his value, if we want anything worthwhile in return. Hayes may have erased any doubt at the end of the season, but I expect his trade value will be better in January than currently. I'm not giving away an excellent young 3C. Now if Calgary comes seeking Hayes and Hamilton is a possibility, if we add a 1st, then we have to think hard.

I don't think we think hard about Hayes. He's an extra forward if the Rangers do in fact sign Tavares. He raised his value with his post-deadline goal outburst so this might be the highest his value ever will be.

Really though, there's just too many moving pieces at the moment. Let's wait to see what happens with the lottery and Kovalchuck. Because if we're picking #1 overall, there's no chance they'll go after Karlsson.

Pete
04-14-2018, 08:03 PM
I'm not exactly sure we call Hayes an extra forward. He's a shutdown Center who can score 20 goals and put up 50 plus points. That's not exactly easy to find.

ThirtyONE
04-14-2018, 08:09 PM
I'm not exactly sure we call Hayes an extra forward. He's a shutdown Center who can score 20 goals and put up 50 plus points. That's not exactly easy to find.

It's not? 149 players scored more points than him. He was a second line center with 19 assists. I guess he can play a 3rd line role but I'd expect his point total to decrease at that point. You take care of him last, after you sign the guys who can actually score, because if you want a defensive center, that is easy to find.

Also, calling him a 50+ point scorer is a stretch considering he's never done that.

We need more than 44 points from guys if we want to change the way shit has gone.

Giacomin
04-14-2018, 08:15 PM
I don't think we think hard about Hayes. He's an extra forward if the Rangers do in fact sign Tavares. He raised his value with his post-deadline goal outburst so this might be the highest his value ever will be.

Really though, there's just too many moving pieces at the moment. Let's wait to see what happens with the lottery and Kovalchuck. Because if we're picking #1 overall, there's no chance they'll go after Karlsson.

Honestly, I'm not thinking free agency either. I just want to see how the lotto turns out first. Instead of hoping for #1, I'm just hoping we don't drop. #9 is very possible, twice as likely as getting into the top 3. 10th would be horrid luck.

This is what we need. There is a 45% chance that Florida, Blues, Stars, Flames, Canes, Isles, Oilers get called in order. That means the worst we pick is 8th and that our odds to be in the top 3 increase to around 27%. If one of those teams is not called in order that means we pick 9th or later, unless we hit on a now less than 10% chance of a top 3.

The plan is to watch intently the first seven picks go as ordered. Then hope I don't hear the Rangers called next.

Giacomin
04-14-2018, 08:18 PM
Then I wanna see the draft and any trades we make before/during the draft, before I think about shitty free agency.

Pete
04-14-2018, 08:21 PM
It's not? 149 players scored more points than him. He was a second line center with 19 assists. I guess he can play a 3rd line role but I'd expect his point total to decrease at that point. You take care of him last, after you sign the guys who can actually score, because if you want a defensive center, that is easy to find.
None of this explains how he's an extra forward. He had 49 points as a third liner last year.

I don't want to get tangential. I don't love Hayes. I don't care if they trade him. But that said, it's simply untrue that he's an extra forward if they sign JT. Zib or Hayes can easily move to wing. Hayes is also one of our few PKers left, and takes most of the D zone starts (second only to Fast among regular players).

Defensize centers who can score 50 points from the 3rd line aren't easy to find.

Mike
04-14-2018, 08:50 PM
Hayes and Vesey were among the worst in the exit exams. Vesey was worse. Let them go eat Taco Bell somewhere else.

If anyone cares, among the best were Fast, Kreider, Hank, Skjei, and Pionk.

Phil in Absentia
04-14-2018, 08:51 PM
Hayes is arguably the most valuable forward trade chip the team has. More than Zuccarello or Buchnevich. For the reasons Pete noted above, and the fact he's a center, period.

Mike
04-14-2018, 09:05 PM
Hayes is arguably the most valuable forward trade chip the team has. More than Zuccarello or Buchnevich. For the reasons Pete noted above, and the fact he's a center, period.

Yes, and he’s an out of shape, lazy, douche waffle. Will get real good value right now.

ThirtyONE
04-14-2018, 09:06 PM
Hayes and Vesey were among the worst in the exit exams. Vesey was worse. Let them go eat Taco Bell somewhere else.

If anyone cares, among the best were Fast, Kreider, Hank, Skjei, and Pionk.

What does this consist of?

Phil in Absentia
04-14-2018, 09:09 PM
Yes, and he’s an out of shape, lazy, douche waffle. Will get real good value right now.

He's a bro. It doesn't surprise me he does bro things. I like him as a player, but if he gets them something valuable, I'm good with it.

Mike
04-14-2018, 09:32 PM
What does this consist of?

Weight
Body fat
Muscle
Stamina exercise
Toxicology

Etc ...

Puck Head
04-14-2018, 09:32 PM
What does this consist of?

Maybe math ?


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Kevin
04-14-2018, 09:36 PM
I'm not exactly sure we call Hayes an extra forward. He's a shutdown Center who can score 20 goals and put up 50 plus points. That's not exactly easy to find.

This. I actually started appreciating him a bit this year. He's improved in every facet of the game every year he's been a pro. Can't argue with that.

Giacomin
04-14-2018, 09:50 PM
how high was his thc count?

The team just figured out they were out of shape? Shame on the team and players.

Of course Fast and Kreids were among the best, which is why I mentioned their work ethic weeks ago when someone choose to question both players value. Kreids took some extra shit about not working hard enough, which is bullshit. If Grabs and Hags were still on the team, they'd be right up there. There is a reason all of them are fast and working hard for a full shift, every shift. They are dedicated to maximizing their physical abilities, they are disciplined, work on their skating and their strength, power and quickness. And they been doing it since early on.

Giacomin
04-14-2018, 09:53 PM
Maybe math ?


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

:rofl:

Fatfrancesa
04-14-2018, 09:59 PM
Another av problem

Bugg
04-14-2018, 10:00 PM
The problem here is only Karlsson. Ottawa has no use for zucc or really even Hayes. They are rebuilding in the traditional way especially being a small market team that always spends well under the cap. They want prospects and players on elcs. Zucc, spooner, Namestnikov, and Hayes don’t fit that bill. A more likely scenario is that they would want Andersson, Buchnevich,or chytil, the rangers first pick this year, next year 1st, and another decent prospect maybe Hajek or Howden.
If not that something close to it. The rangers are rebuilding signing Karlsson would be hard enough. Why if the rangers are rebuilding would this make sense?

Tavares really doesn’t make sense either but that I can at least see being that they wouldn’t be giving up any young talent just money.

From Sens' perspective, draft picks or young guys like Buch/Anderson/Chytil make sense, Hayes/Vesey/Zuc/Spponer/Names do not.

Giacomin
04-14-2018, 10:02 PM
Yes, and he’s an out of shape, lazy, douche waffle. Will get real good value right now.

Did they ever ask him to lose the weight? What is going on at the practice facility? Were AV's schedules so tight they left no time for the S&C coach to mingle around with the guys? Not being in touch with so many lockerroom issues and/or letting things get out of hand. Coaches should have been fired sooner, hearing all this plus all the deadline stuff.

fletch
04-14-2018, 10:07 PM
if you are a pro you gotta take personal responsibility and be in shape. otherwise you are not showing much respect to your team or your profession. apologies to kessel. as long as he can keep sniping you can put on all the weight he wants:rofl:

Giacomin
04-14-2018, 10:09 PM
From Sens' perspective, draft picks or young guys like Buch/Anderson/Chytil make sense, Hayes/Vesey/Zuc/Spponer/Names do not.

We'll give em Hayes plus a 1 and both 3s for Stone and forget the whole Karlsson and Taco Bell thing.

Then we will get the leader we need too. Stone is beloved and respected in that locker room as their true leader and would probably punch Hayes/Vesey in the stomach, if he mentioned Taco Bell anywhere near him.

Mike
04-14-2018, 10:24 PM
how high was his thc count?

The team just figured out they were out of shape? Shame on the team and players.

Of course Fast and Kreids were among the best, which is why I mentioned their work ethic weeks ago when someone choose to question both players value. Kreids took some extra shit about not working hard enough, which is bullshit. If Grabs and Hags were still on the team, they'd be right up there. There is a reason all of them are fast and working hard for a full shift, every shift. They are dedicated to maximizing their physical abilities, they are disciplined, work on their skating and their strength, power and quickness. And they been doing it since early on.


Did they ever ask him to lose the weight? What is going on at the practice facility? Were AV's schedules so tight they left no time for the S&C coach to mingle around with the guys? Not being in touch with so many lockerroom issues and/or letting things get out of hand. Coaches should have been fired sooner, hearing all this plus all the deadline stuff.

Not sure if you do it intentionally to me, but you ask me crazy ass questions after I share some things. I’m a pretty smart guy, but I can’t answer questions about what goes on in people’s heads. I also don’t know the travel habits of William Santiago.

Giacomin
04-14-2018, 10:28 PM
Not sure if you do it intentionally to me, but you ask me crazy ass questions after I share some things. I’m a pretty smart guy, but I can’t answer questions about what goes on in people’s heads. I also don’t know the travel habits of William Santiago.

You crack me up. I'd love answers but don't expect you to have the answers to the bolded ones or the other ones. They were rhetorical, for the most part.

In other words, I can't freakin believe the players or the team would look like such a bunch of semi-pros. Shocking and disheartening. Problems with around 5 high salaried [or about to be] players this year.

Phil in Absentia
04-14-2018, 10:36 PM
Sidebar, who ordered the Mountain Dew Code Red in Vesey's refrigerator? WHO ORDERED THE MOUNTAIN DEW CODE RED!?

Giacomin
04-14-2018, 10:38 PM
That was funny too in that I saw the bolded questions and thought... Does Mike actually have answers to these questions???

Then I saw your answer realizing you are not omniscient, as you tell me you are not omniscient.

Mike
04-14-2018, 10:42 PM
Sidebar, who ordered the Mountain Dew Code Red in Vesey's refrigerator? WHO ORDERED THE MOUNTAIN DEW CODE RED!?

You want answers ?

torontonyr
04-15-2018, 01:51 PM
He's a bro. It doesn't surprise me he does bro things. I like him as a player, but if he gets them something valuable, I'm good with it.

Welcome to the team

Phil in Absentia
04-15-2018, 01:52 PM
Do we get matching jerseys or something?


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Niko
04-15-2018, 02:22 PM
Do any of you guys think the accelerated rebuild may be an effort to cash in on what will probably Hank’s last solid year (or maybe 2) as a #1 goaltender? I don’t think that Hank really can push the organization around in his golden years, but maybe JG doesn’t think the window is completely closed.

CBrowningPI
04-16-2018, 12:58 AM
It's closed and nailed shut.

Sent from my [device_name] using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk

Rosenvold
04-16-2018, 06:11 AM
Do any of you guys think the accelerated rebuild may be an effort to cash in on what will probably Hank’s last solid year (or maybe 2) as a #1 goaltender? I don’t think that Hank really can push the organization around in his golden years, but maybe JG doesn’t think the window is completely closed.

Signing JT or Karlsson would be more about opening up a whole new 8-year window, the way I see it. In fact, is it probably more about blowing a massive hole in the roof to rocket out of.

While I agree with the skepticism surrounding an accelerated rebuild, you have to appreciate that JT and Karlsson are world-class players, who are very, very rarely available - especially at the age of 27. Signing just one of them is a game-changer for the franchise and something you have to attempt almost no matter the circumstances.

Furthermore, this is exactly the game that the Rangers need to be strong at. Attracting star players by having home in the greatest city in the world. That's the structural "edge", the Rangers hold over Buffalo, Arizona etc., who can all (theoretically) draft and develop just as much and well as the Rangers and all play under the same salary cap. The one thing, the Rangers will always have is the attraction and the prestige of the franchise and the city, and in a cap-world, that is only really exploitable in UFA's and re-signings.

Phil in Absentia
04-16-2018, 10:52 AM
It's closed and nailed shut.

Sent from my [device_name] using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk

Not if they bring in Tavares and Karlsson. That opens it back up again.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

CBrowningPI
04-16-2018, 12:34 PM
I was referring to our goaltenders window. I know he is loved by the majority, he's hard working and committed to the team. My personal opinion is he just doesn't have "it". I hope next season he plays at an elite level. Watching these playoff games I keep wondering if Hank could have been as effective. Having JT and Karlsson won't help the most important player on the ice.

Sent from my [device_name] using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk

Future
04-16-2018, 12:48 PM
I was referring to our goaltenders window. I know he is loved by the majority, he's hard working and committed to the team. My personal opinion is he just doesn't have "it". I hope next season he plays at an elite level. Watching these playoff games I keep wondering if Hank could have been as effective. Having JT and Karlsson won't help the most important player on the ice.

Sent from my [device_name] using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk
Aside from the impossible argument of whether or not Hank has "it".... of course JT and/or Karlsson helps him.

No goalie is going to play well consistently facing 40 shots per night.

phillyb™
04-16-2018, 12:52 PM
I was referring to our goaltenders window. I know he is loved by the majority, he's hard working and committed to the team. My personal opinion is he just doesn't have "it". I hope next season he plays at an elite level. Watching these playoff games I keep wondering if Hank could have been as effective. Having JT and Karlsson won't help the most important player on the ice.

Sent from my [device_name] using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk


Aside from the impossible argument of whether or not Hank has "it".... of course JT and/or Karlsson helps him.

No goalie is going to play well consistently facing 40 shots per night.

Furthermore, I think an argument can be made that if JT and EK65 come here, Hank is no longer the most important player on the ice.

torontonyr
04-16-2018, 12:52 PM
Hank had a solid season last year, despite what seems to be a prolonged injury and a lacking defense. Heck, our #2 d-man was also injured, the #3 was a shithead, the #4 stagnated in progress, #5 underperformed and spent most the year in the A, and #6 was Marc Staal.

All this with an offense first, shell later coaching style.

Lundqvist is better than 90% of the starting goalies in today's NHL and you have to capitalize on that, if and/or while you can. Pavelec was a starting goalie. Think about that.

Flynn
04-16-2018, 12:56 PM
My dream scenario is every other fanbase absolutely losing their minds with talk of a "Fix" after we win the lottery, then sign JT and trade of EK.. It would be glorious

Future
04-16-2018, 01:06 PM
Furthermore, I think an argument can be made that if JT and EK65 come here, Hank is no longer the most important player on the ice.
The goalie is always the most important player on the ice, because they're the only guy who can single-handedly win or lose a game.

But yea, he's not as important when the supporting cast can accomplish something.

Phil in Absentia
04-16-2018, 01:09 PM
The goalie is always the most important player on the ice, because they're the only guy who can single-handedly win or lose a game.

But yea, he's not as important when the supporting cast can accomplish something.

Incorrect. Goalies only keep you in games long enough for skaters to win them. They can lose games singlehandedly, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Future
04-16-2018, 01:17 PM
Incorrect. Goalies only keep you in games long enough for skaters to win them. They can lose games singlehandedly, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)
COLOSSALEYEROLL.gif

Phil in Absentia
04-16-2018, 01:40 PM
Well, stop saying wrong things and I won't have to correct them! :rofl:


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Future
04-16-2018, 01:58 PM
Well, stop saying wrong things and I won't have to correct them! :rofl:


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)
Pedantic and correct aren't synonymous.

Phil in Absentia
04-16-2018, 02:05 PM
They can be. I'm this case they are.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

phillyb™
04-16-2018, 02:24 PM
Reported for abusive content. Get a fucking room, you two.

Future
04-16-2018, 03:20 PM
Reported for abusive content. Get a fucking room, you two.
Can't, been kicked out of every roadside motel from Maine to Georgia.

The Dude
04-16-2018, 04:14 PM
This is what I’m hearing:
They’re looking to move Vesey and Hayes

Kovy 3 mill
Tavares 10 ( will push for JT the hardest )
Karlsson 10 ( 2019-20 )

This Hayes and Vesey stuff makes me happy. Hopefully they can nab a quality D man in return for them.

josh
04-16-2018, 04:41 PM
I dont want to move Hayes. Would rather move Zibanejad, especially if we are bringing in a center and a RH shooter.

ThirtyONE
04-16-2018, 04:47 PM
I dont want to move Hayes. Would rather move Zibanejad, especially if we are bringing in a center and a RH shooter.

I don't understand people wanting to hang on to Hayes. Not just you but others have said the same. I don't get it. What's to like about him? Defense? You can get that anywhere.

josh
04-16-2018, 04:54 PM
I don't understand people wanting to hang on to Hayes. Not just you but others have said the same. I don't get it. What's to like about him? Defense? You can get that anywhere.

Simply put, he out produces Zibanejad in ever aspect, other than the PP. Comparing ES or PK numbers between the two is pretty telling, including +/-
For comparison, he put up 44 points this season (45, 39, 49 previously). Artem Anisimov's top season was 45 points, playing with Patrick Kane.
And Hayes, unlike Zibs, can play on any line. 1st or 4th.

I dont see either being a top-line guy for the next few years, so I really look at that versatility.

jsrangers
04-16-2018, 05:06 PM
ok with moving both Hayes and Vecsey both have underwhelmed plus they both have stupid looks on their faces imo :). Zib still has a lot to prove as well, he could start by ditching the frosted tips that were maybe cool in the late 80's.

torontonyr
04-16-2018, 05:10 PM
This is what I’m hearing:
They’re looking to move Vesey and Hayes

Kovy 3 mill
Tavares 10 ( will push for JT the hardest )
Karlsson 10 ( 2019-20 )

IIRC you have some ties to the org?

josh
04-16-2018, 06:19 PM
No

https://media.giphy.com/media/BU88dlLXhiXzW/giphy.gif

Pete
04-16-2018, 07:38 PM
Simply put, he out produces Zibanejad in ever aspect, other than the PP. Comparing ES or PK numbers between the two is pretty telling, including +/-
For comparison, he put up 44 points this season (45, 39, 49 previously). Artem Anisimov's top season was 45 points, playing with Patrick Kane.
And Hayes, unlike Zibs, can play on any line. 1st or 4th.

I dont see either being a top-line guy for the next few years, so I really look at that versatility.

"Simply put, I have a hard-on for Zibenajad, therefore I will try to paint his as useless as humanly possible."

Don't know what Anisimov has to do with it, but at least acknowledge that 45 points was in 64 games...

Phil in Absentia
04-16-2018, 07:44 PM
Zibanejad P/GP:

2017-18 - 0.65
2016-17 - 0.66
2015-16 - 0.63
2014-15 - 0.58

Anisomov P/GP:

2017-18 - 0.43
2016-17 - 0.70
2015-16 - 0.55
2014-15 - 0.52

I'll take Zibanejad every day of the week.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

josh
04-16-2018, 07:50 PM
Phil, sorry. The comparisons are based off Hayes.

josh
04-16-2018, 07:51 PM
"Simply put, I have a hard-on for Zibenajad, therefore I will try to paint his as useless as humanly possible."

Don't know what Anisimov has to do with it, but at least acknowledge that 45 points was in 64 games...
I think most would say AA is a solid 2C. Hayes is better, playing with less.

Pete
04-16-2018, 08:16 PM
I think most would say AA is a solid 2C. Hayes is better, playing with less.Oh, didn't realize that's where you were going.

Hayes reminds me of Jordan Staal. Exceled playing behind some guys but will never carry the load in a top 6 role.

But that's no reason to trade him. Move Zib to wing.

josh
04-16-2018, 08:23 PM
Oh, didn't realize that's where you were going.

Hayes reminds me of Jordan Staal. Exceled playing behind some guys but will never carry the load in a top 6 role.

But that's no reason to trade him. Move Zib to wing.

I'm a huge proponent of moving Zib to wing... But with the other moves mentioned, it makes him expendable... In that scenario

Pete
04-16-2018, 08:27 PM
I'm a huge proponent of moving Zib to wing... But with the other moves mentioned, it makes him expendable... In that scenarioHe's locked into a reasonable deal and a year younger than Hayes.

Plus a right shot. Kovalchuk doesn't make him expendable.

josh
04-16-2018, 08:35 PM
If Zib isn’t getting #1 PP time and he’s not getting first line minutes, when’s he getting his points?

Long live the King
04-16-2018, 08:43 PM
If Zib isn’t getting #1 PP time and he’s not getting first line minutes, when’s he getting his points?

If say, Kovalchuck - Tavares - Chytil was our first line, and Kreider - Zib - Buch was our second line, and Zib was on the #2 PP, he'd still get his points.

jsrangers
04-16-2018, 08:47 PM
hope there's a plan B for the first line because there's three question marks.

torontonyr
04-16-2018, 08:51 PM
Zib might be the perfect 2nd line C.

Pete
04-16-2018, 08:54 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why we need kovalchuk if we have Zib on RW.

josh
04-16-2018, 08:57 PM
If say, Kovalchuck - Tavares - Chytil was our first line, and Kreider - Zib - Buch was our second line, and Zib was on the #2 PP, he'd still get his points.
Sure, not terrible.

IMO, we need to get Mika on the wing. Let him rip. Let him focus on scoring. That’s where he will be the most beneficial to the team.

But more importantly, we need a 1C, and it’s not him.

Phil in Absentia
04-16-2018, 09:03 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why we need kovalchuk if we have Zib on RW.

Kovalchuk is LW.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

josh
04-16-2018, 09:06 PM
I’d prefer Zibanejad on the left. One timer . How he plays on the pp.

Long live the King
04-16-2018, 09:09 PM
Sure, not terrible.

IMO, we need to get Mika on the wing. Let him rip. Let him focus on scoring. That’s where he will be the most beneficial to the team.

But more importantly, we need a 1C, and it’s not him.

That's fine, but if Mika and his cap hit are on the wing, assuming we bring in these pricey UFA's, we won't be able to afford having Hayes to play C also...

Loffen
04-16-2018, 10:04 PM
A part of me doesn't really believe this full on rebuild thing. Might be because of all the signings we have done over the past seasons. We'll see.

And we should've shitcanned AV and his system years ago. Things would've been different right now I think.

Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc
04-17-2018, 03:30 AM
Kovy - JT - Chytil
Kreids - Zib - Buch
Vesey - Hayes - Spooner
Fast - Lias - UFA/someone

Trade Zuc and Names for D and cap. Win the cup. Party.

Gravesy
04-17-2018, 08:47 AM
I don't understand people wanting to hang on to Hayes. Not just you but others have said the same. I don't get it. What's to like about him? Defense? You can get that anywhere.

The only thing I can see is there’s a potential upside with him if a new coach comes in, whips him into shape and he starts using his size to his advantage. He needs several rockets up his ass, then maybe we’ll see a useful player.

Right now I could take or leave him.

Vodka Drunkenski
04-17-2018, 09:00 AM
Hayes could be Boyle but better offensively.

Future
04-17-2018, 09:06 AM
Hayes could be Boyle but better offensively.
Kevin Hayes is already a better player than Brian Boyle ever was.

Vodka Drunkenski
04-17-2018, 09:08 AM
Kevin Hayes is already a better player than Brian Boyle ever was.

Yes, I agree at times he has. That's why I say better offensively. He lacks consistency, similar to Kreider.

josh
04-17-2018, 09:14 AM
Yes, I agree at times he has. That's why I say better offensively. He lacks consistency, similar to Kreider.

He lacks offensive consistency because he's been on the 3rd line, mostly. And was still putting up better ES numbers than Zibanejad, our #1C.

Ozzy
04-17-2018, 09:42 AM
A part of me doesn't really believe this full on rebuild thing. Might be because of all the signings we have done over the past seasons. We'll see.

And we should've shitcanned AV and his system years ago. Things would've been different right now I think.

I'm going with this!

I wanna see this team under a real coach, not the former douche bag. He lost this team 2 years ago. Lets see what these guys have when they have new fire under their ass....or in this case A FIRE AT ALL!

Slobberknocker
04-17-2018, 10:12 AM
he plays marshmellow soft for a guy his size.

Pete
04-17-2018, 12:02 PM
He lacks offensive consistency because he's been on the 3rd line, mostly. And was still putting up better ES numbers than Zibanejad, our #1C.

Playing against weaker competition, sure.

Zibinejad could put up 80 point playing against the guys Hayes plays against, with PP time.

josh
04-17-2018, 12:04 PM
Playing against weaker competition, sure.

Zibinejad could put up 80 point playing against the guys Hayes plays against, with PP time.

Maybe if he has Hayes as his center!

Gravesy
04-17-2018, 02:03 PM
he plays marshmellow soft for a guy his size.

This. He should be dominating physically out there, but he's far too easy to play against for a guy his size.

lefty9
04-17-2018, 02:09 PM
He doesn't utilize his size for sure ,but playing under Av surely made it worse

josh
04-17-2018, 02:15 PM
Using your size is different in this NHL. Guys are too fast. You cant have your center trying to take runs at opponents to leave a 3 on 2 with Gilmour and O'Gara back to defend.

He was playing physical at the end of the season when his minutes increased, especially in the offensive zone.

Loffen
04-17-2018, 02:26 PM
I'm going with this!

I wanna see this team under a real coach, not the former douche bag. He lost this team 2 years ago. Lets see what these guys have when they have new fire under their ass....or in this case A FIRE AT ALL!

The 15/16 season was severly flawed. His player usage was trash. I wanted him gone after that series loss against the Pens. Hard to believe Gorton stuck with him for two more seasons.

torontonyr
04-17-2018, 02:30 PM
The 15/16 season was severly flawed. His player usage was trash. I wanted him gone after that series loss against the Pens. Hard to believe Gorton stuck with him for two more seasons.

I've missed your montages loffen.

The Dude
04-17-2018, 06:41 PM
I dont want to move Hayes. Would rather move Zibanejad, especially if we are bringing in a center and a RH shooter.

Huge talent drop off there. Zib can be shifted to a wing or become the 2nd line center if JT is brought in. I don't want Hayes in anything more than the 3rd line role and I dont think it would take too long for Andersson to take on his responsibilities. I drop Chytil/Andersson into the role immediately.

I know you're not a big fan of Zib, but IMO, the guy can definitely be a game changer, if he's not already. I keep the game changer signed to a 5.3 mill contract for 4 more years over giving Hayes anything over what hes getting now. I think I don't like Hayes MORE than you don't like Zib.

This team will be better off cashing out on Hayes now, rather than extending him to what could turn out to be 3-4 mill.

The Dude
04-17-2018, 06:45 PM
Sure, not terrible.

IMO, we need to get Mika on the wing. Let him rip. Let him focus on scoring. That’s where he will be the most beneficial to the team.

But more importantly, we need a 1C, and it’s not him.

Well it certainly isnt frikken Hayes man. Come onnn.

josh
04-17-2018, 06:55 PM
Well it certainly isnt frikken Hayes man. Come onnn.

I’m not saying that.
I’m saying Hayes is a more productive 2nd line center than Zibanejad [is a first line center]...

So if you are looking for a 2nd line C, it seems like a no brainer.

I also said move Zibanejad to wing, where he can focus on being “a game changer”.

All contingent upon getting a 1C.

The Dude
04-17-2018, 07:03 PM
I don't understand people wanting to hang on to Hayes. Not just you but others have said the same. I don't get it. What's to like about him? Defense? You can get that anywhere.

I agree. Unless he can be resigned dirt cheap, I don't think he would be missed as they have 2-3 guys that are almost on the cusp of being able to take his role.

Kovy- JT- Zucc
Kreider- Zib- Buch
Spooner- Andersson/Chytil/Howden- Fast
Roussel- Andersson/Chytil/Howden- FA/Hartford

Deal Vesey, Hayes and Namestikov for future draft picks and defensive help.

Zucc, Buch, Chytil, Spooner and Fast can be shuffled around anywhere in the lineup if the lines need tweeking. Spooner or Chytil could maybe be put into the 2nd line center spot, moving Zib to 1st or 2nd line RW.. Zib gives this team way more flexibility for the top six than Hayes IMO.

The Dude
04-17-2018, 07:06 PM
I’m not saying that.
I’m saying Hayes is a more productive 2nd line center than Zibanejad [is a first line center]...

So if you are looking for a 2nd line C, it seems like a no brainer.

I also said move Zibanejad to wing, where he can focus on being “a game changer”.

All contingent upon getting a 1C.

I just don't see Hayes as 2nd line material. Stats be damned. I think one of the kids can do his job, with Spooner being a better fit for the 2nd line.

Fatfrancesa
04-17-2018, 09:15 PM
Now it’s hayes turn. When/if J.T. says no to the rangers does that change the thinking on Hayes?

Kevin
04-17-2018, 09:36 PM
Not everyone can be a physical type player. Hayes doesn't really have it in him to be that type of guy. But to say he doesn't use his size effectively is not accurate at all. Hayes uses his frame very well to shield the puck and extend plays. Maybe he does that a little too much but he definitely doesn't play small.

The Dude
04-17-2018, 10:40 PM
Not everyone can be a physical type player. Hayes doesn't really have it in him to be that type of guy. But to say he doesn't use his size effectively is not accurate at all. Hayes uses his frame very well to shield the puck and extend plays. Maybe he does that a little too much but he definitely doesn't play small.

I myself could care less about how Hayes uses his size. It cant be taught, he is what he is. He's a guy that likes to carry the puck and never shoot it, or never do much of anything worth while with the puck. I just don't see all that much to his game that is hard to find, nor is it irreplaceable. I think the exact opposite. Someone given the endless opportunity that hes been given, might have shown more.

Hes OK, and hes definitely done way more than I thought he would after his sophomore season. I really can't get on board with people who think of him as a legitimate 2nd line option. He's found very little chemistry with anyone (i guess Grabner can be brought up as one).

I go with Spooner over him any day. Yet I go with Hayes over Namestikov, whom I may regret being so down on, as hes got the skillset you want, but am unsure how good he actually is, away from Tampa.

Pete
04-17-2018, 11:18 PM
Never shoot? Scored 27 goals...

Giacomin
04-17-2018, 11:44 PM
I myself could care less about how Hayes uses his size. It cant be taught, he is what he is. He's a guy that likes to carry the puck and never shoot it, or never do much of anything worth while with the puck. I just don't see all that much to his game that is hard to find, nor is it irreplaceable. I think the exact opposite. Someone given the endless opportunity that hes been given, might have shown more.

Hes OK, and hes definitely done way more than I thought he would after his sophomore season. I really can't get on board with people who think of him as a legitimate 2nd line option. He's found very little chemistry with anyone (i guess Grabner can be brought up as one).

I go with Spooner over him any day. Yet I go with Hayes over Namestikov, whom I may regret being so down on, as hes got the skillset you want, but am unsure how good he actually is, away from Tampa.

Hayes had excellent chemistry with Hags and Fast too. Then again, given the work they do, who wouldn't. However, Spooner also benefited from the defensive strengths and puck possession of Hayes. Hayes and Fast (or Grabs) could really create a balanced 3rd line with Spoons.

Also, give Hayes some time with a new coach and system. He has not had any other coach in forever. AV and his college coach, that's it. Same is true for Vesey and he has much less NHL experience. I know many are down on Vesey and they may be right. Or he may be better and improve (as many do) in his 3rd year. Both players need to take the next step, both on and off the ice.

Lastly, not reading too much into the end of the year, but Hayes said he would start shooting more and he did. And he got hot. He may have learned something. Now he needs to go all-in and put it all together this year.

Giacomin
04-17-2018, 11:53 PM
Added Note: I wouldn't rush to trade either player because I do not think we'll get the value we would from waiting. However, if either allows us to fill a need with a player or draft choice we covet, or wins us a hockey trade because the trading partner overvalues one of them, then trade either.

Also, one aspect of Hayes game is severely undervalued is takeaways. He is dangerous in the opponents end defending the outlet with a good F1 partner or a good fast forechecker.

Giacomin
04-18-2018, 12:00 AM
Dude, let's leave Howden (and Hajek) out of 2018 discussions. No matter how good they project, at the very least they need a half year (likely full year) in the A to develop properly. These players should not be rushed just because they have potential and are highly productive in their current league. Getting them into our new system via Hartford is a nice leap and we do not need to skip steps with these two, just because we have holes in NY.

Giacomin
04-18-2018, 12:11 AM
Not even sure Lias is ready, he could be much stronger and needs to work on his skating. I'm not sure about what they are doing in Tampa, but they have turned below avg skaters into strong ones.

I think Chytil will make the jump and he'll keep learning D along the way. The D thing might have him on the wing to start. Especially if Zib, Names and Hayes are on the team. Add Lias and it is possible Chytil gets some exposure as a 2nd line winger. Looking forward to it, the kid has it. Dunny says Getzlaff, my first impression was Peter Stastny. Either way that makes him a 1C if we are lucky enough to see him realize that potential.

Rosenvold
04-18-2018, 09:00 AM
Added Note: I wouldn't rush to trade either player because I do not think we'll get the value we would from waiting. However, if either allows us to fill a need with a player or draft choice we covet, or wins us a hockey trade because the trading partner overvalues one of them, then trade either.

Also, one aspect of Hayes game is severely undervalued is takeaways. He is dangerous in the opponents end defending the outlet with a good F1 partner or a good fast forechecker.

Agreed. Hayes had a good season and his value could be high if the right teams are interested and believe they can re-sign him at a discount.

Otherwise, it makes a lot of sense to bridge him and then see how he performs under a new coach. If he is on a cheap 2-year bridge deal, he could be very attractive for contenders at the 2019 or 2020 trade deadlines. Physical, scoring 3rd liners are always in demand.

torontonyr
04-18-2018, 09:38 AM
Gotta give to get folks.

Drew a Penalty
04-18-2018, 10:57 AM
I myself could care less about how Hayes uses his size. It cant be taught, he is what he is. He's a guy that likes to carry the puck and never shoot it, or never do much of anything worth while with the puck. I just don't see all that much to his game that is hard to find, nor is it irreplaceable. I think the exact opposite. Someone given the endless opportunity that hes been given, might have shown more.

Hes OK, and hes definitely done way more than I thought he would after his sophomore season. I really can't get on board with people who think of him as a legitimate 2nd line option. He's found very little chemistry with anyone (i guess Grabner can be brought up as one).

I go with Spooner over him any day. Yet I go with Hayes over Namestikov, whom I may regret being so down on, as hes got the skillset you want, but am unsure how good he actually is, away from Tampa.

You know Hayes uses his size basically in the same way Joe Thronton does right? The same Joe Thronton whom you've insisted they acquire over the years.

In a recent Athletic interview with Hayes, he cited Eric Staal, Rick Nash, and Joe Thornton as his favorite players growing up. That reads in his game.

CBrowningPI
04-18-2018, 04:09 PM
Dr. Jekkyl and Mr. Hayes.

Sent from my [device_name] using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk

Mr.wiskers
04-18-2018, 05:27 PM
I would keep Hayes over Zibenajad because of Zibenajads injury history, which includes what 5 concussions—who knows how many concussions away is he from a forced retirement. And of course it depends on what we’re getting in return—Sam Bennett, Sam Reinhart...
Especially is we’re talking Tavares as our #1 center.

Sent from my iPad using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Sod16
04-18-2018, 05:59 PM
Zibenajads injury history, which includes what 5 concussions—who knows how many concussions away is he from a forced retirement.



This is something that has not been discussed a whole lot by the media (which these days pretty much means Larry Brooks because the other local coverage of the Rangers has grown limpid). It concerns me very much. Especially how sluggish he was after being cleared to return from the last one.

rangers02
04-18-2018, 06:14 PM
I agree. Unless he can be resigned dirt cheap, I don't think he would be missed as they have 2-3 guys that are almost on the cusp of being able to take his role.

Kovy- JT- Zucc
Kreider- Zib- Buch
Spooner- Andersson/Chytil/Howden- Fast
Roussel- Andersson/Chytil/Howden- FA/Hartford

Deal Vesey, Hayes, and Namestikov for future draft pick and defensive help.

Zucc, Buch, Chytil, Spooner, and Fast can be shuffled around anywhere in the lineup if the lines need tweaking. Spooner or Chytil could maybe be put into the 2nd line center spot, moving Zib to 1st or 2nd line RW.. Zib gives this team way more flexibility for the top six than Hayes IMO.

My concerns are how Zibby will recover if he gets injured again. And, will Kovy be another player that we get one year too late?

Mr.wiskers
04-18-2018, 06:15 PM
With the whole CTE thing and lawsuits—I would figure NHL doctors will/would be leary of clearing players as fast as they use to.


Sent from my iPad using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

rangers02
04-18-2018, 06:16 PM
Good Point

Fatfrancesa
04-18-2018, 07:39 PM
My concerns are how Zibby will recover if he gets injured again. And, will Kovy be another player that we get one year too late?

Yes on kovy. He’s not the same player he was when he left. Obviously.

jsrangers
04-18-2018, 08:08 PM
Yes on kovy. He’s not the same player he was when he left. Obviously.

more than one year late on Kovulchuk imo.

The Dude
04-18-2018, 08:44 PM
Hayes had excellent chemistry with Hags and Fast too. Then again, given the work they do, who wouldn't. However, Spooner also benefited from the defensive strengths and puck possession of Hayes. Hayes and Fast (or Grabs) could really create a balanced 3rd line with Spoons.

Also, give Hayes some time with a new coach and system. He has not had any other coach in forever. AV and his college coach, that's it. Same is true for Vesey and he has much less NHL experience. I know many are down on Vesey and they may be right. Or he may be better and improve (as many do) in his 3rd year. Both players need to take the next step, both on and off the ice.

Lastly, not reading too much into the end of the year, but Hayes said he would start shooting more and he did. And he got hot. He may have learned something. Now he needs to go all-in and put it all together this year.

And AV gave him the longest leash of any young player to come through the system. He definitely didn't have it rough here. Had quite a bit handed to him. He could have and probably should have been sent to Hartford on a few occasions. Most definitely last season (edit, i meant his second year, my how time has passed, hrs been here 4 seasons).

Im not sure another coach would have the patience to give this guy the leeway he got here.

Hes had chemistry with two speedsters, who dont put up many points. When paired with skill players, he absolutely stinks.

I rush to trade him, because as i said his replacement is already in the system. Waiting to deal him, unsigned will be a lot harder. I just don't see a spot onnthe roster for this guy.

The Dude
04-18-2018, 08:47 PM
Dude, let's leave Howden (and Hajek) out of 2018 discussions. No matter how good they project, at the very least they need a half year (likely full year) in the A to develop properly. These players should not be rushed just because they have potential and are highly productive in their current league. Getting them into our new system via Hartford is a nice leap and we do not need to skip steps with these two, just because we have holes in NY.

I think Howden has a fighting chance since they are slim at the lower line center position. Heck ALL line center positions.

The Dude
04-18-2018, 08:58 PM
Not even sure Lias is ready, he could be much stronger and needs to work on his skating. I'm not sure about what they are doing in Tampa, but they have turned below avg skaters into strong ones.

I think Chytil will make the jump and he'll keep learning D along the way. The D thing might have him on the wing to start. Especially if Zib, Names and Hayes are on the team. Add Lias and it is possible Chytil gets some exposure as a 2nd line winger. Looking forward to it, the kid has it. Dunny says Getzlaff, my first impression was Peter Stastny. Either way that makes him a 1C if we are lucky enough to see him realize that potential.

Thats the point. No Hayes or Namestikov. Spooner, Chytil , Andersson and anyone else young, inexpensive and of course ready get a role while being cost effective. Making it possible to sign JT, and possible to use assets to obtain at least one NHL caliber D man.

Has Chytil ever even played wing/ Why are we already shifting the current top prospects position before he even makes the team?

When do people want to start making room for all the prospects we are so in love with? After they sign Kevin Hayes to a 5 year deal at 4.5+ a year? Rip off the band aid. Keep the better players. I myself don't think much of Hayes. Sorry. Im going to continue to suggest life without him here moving forward.

The Dude
04-18-2018, 09:21 PM
You know Hayes uses his size basically in the same way Joe Thronton does right? The same Joe Thronton whom you've insisted they acquire over the years.

In a recent Athletic interview with Hayes, he cited Eric Staal, Rick Nash, and Joe Thornton as his favorite players growing up. That reads in his game.

Yeah no. Please dont try to connect a future HOFer to Hayes. Please.

Thornton has all world vision. Is a playoff point producer, doesn't handle the puck like Hayes and had (HAD) a history of playing physical. Thornton takes the puck to the net. Not to the corner. Thornton can put up 45 points in his sleep. Thornton actually possess a decent shot that he had success using. How many allstar games has Hayes been in? Olympic rosters? Worlds? Ross and Hart trophies? Seriously?

If you read my comment, I wasn't complaining about Hayes lack of physical play. Im fine with him not being a bull. Its the head down and stick handle into the corner boards and not to the net that bothers me. Quite the opposite of what made Joe Thornton a house hold name. You think the average fan knows Kevin Hayes?

Mike Richter, Curtis Joseph and Mike Vernon were some of my favorite players growing up. They all had different styles. Does that mean im as good as any of them?

Do you honestly see Hayes becoming anything like ANY of those favorites of his? Is he going to put up an 80 point season? 40 goals? Be a physical and good skating generational talent???

Fatfrancesa
04-19-2018, 01:26 AM
He doesn’t have to be a hall of famer to earn 4.5m a year or be a quality player. There is no reason to rush to move him. If a good deal comes up sure trade him. Bottom line he is probably the most complete center this team has. He plays a decent two way game and does produce some offense. That probably says more about the rest of this team than anything but it’s true. Spooner and Namestnikov maybe better in the future but that’s a big leap of faith. They are as passive as Hayes maybe even more so. Zib can’t stay on the ice and when he does he facilitates nothing. He’s a goal scorer.

torontonyr
04-19-2018, 09:45 AM
Saying someone is good doesn't eliminate the necessity or possibility of trading them. In fact, it only highlights the advantages of doing so when you're in a rebuild.

Mr.wiskers
04-19-2018, 10:15 AM
Yep, no one wants scrubs—it’s all about how much of a return you can get—and I mean quality not quantity.


Sent from my iPad using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Future
04-19-2018, 10:42 AM
I think Howden has a fighting chance since they are slim at the lower line center position. Heck ALL line center positions.
I mean, sure, he has a chance, but the Rangers have a ton of depth at C.

Zib, Hayes, Namestnikov, Lias, Chytil is a lot of centers.

torontonyr
04-19-2018, 11:30 AM
Dolan


“We need strong leadership in the locker room. I don’t think we had great leadership last year,” Dolan said. “I think maybe we added a burden to Ryan when we made him captain that affected him on and off the ice and kind of changed his own perception of himself. But he was a really good player for us for a long time.

“And I know we need that one great player who can make a difference. We’ve identified some who might become available, and if they do, we want to be in position where we’re able to get them. We’re building a lot of data and analytics into our decision-making. And it’s important for the new coach to embrace that.

“We’re committed to winning the Stanley Cup. I can’t give a timetable, but I also think we can compete for a playoff spot next year and sneak into seventh or eighth place,” he said. “We’re rebuilding but it doesn’t have to take forever.”

Link: https://nypost.com/2018/04/18/rangers-owner-reveals-what-he-wants-in-the-next-coach/

Drew a Penalty
04-19-2018, 11:57 AM
Yeah no. Please dont try to connect a future HOFer to Hayes. Please.

Thornton has all world vision. Is a playoff point producer, doesn't handle the puck like Hayes and had (HAD) a history of playing physical. Thornton takes the puck to the net. Not to the corner. Thornton can put up 45 points in his sleep. Thornton actually possess a decent shot that he had success using. How many allstar games has Hayes been in? Olympic rosters? Worlds? Ross and Hart trophies? Seriously?

If you read my comment, I wasn't complaining about Hayes lack of physical play. Im fine with him not being a bull. Its the head down and stick handle into the corner boards and not to the net that bothers me. Quite the opposite of what made Joe Thornton a house hold name. You think the average fan knows Kevin Hayes?

Mike Richter, Curtis Joseph and Mike Vernon were some of my favorite players growing up. They all had different styles. Does that mean im as good as any of them?

Do you honestly see Hayes becoming anything like ANY of those favorites of his? Is he going to put up an 80 point season? 40 goals? Be a physical and good skating generational talent???

Did I say that because Kevin Hayes liked Thornton that he was him? He emulates a lot of his play in his game. I never said that he is like Thornton. They play similar styles. I mean the way you also describe Thornton isn't completely accurate, but you and I have gone back and forth on that before. You can go back and find those posts if you want.

Players can play in similar styles. That doesn't always mean they're as successful as everything they do. Haven't you ever read the term "stylistic comparison?" Hayes is a 40-50 point player because he lacks the overall talent that the players he idolized have/had.

Giacomin
04-19-2018, 01:04 PM
Has Chytil ever even played wing/ Why are we already shifting the current top prospects position before he even makes the team?

No no no, you're reading me wrong. I think Chytil is probably ready for the NHL and should win a spot on the top 9 in camp. The only reasons to suggest the wing is some coaches like to alleviate the extra defensive responsibilities of a C. Babcock did it with Nylander and Marner, for that reason and because of Matthews. Chytil has played wing and still needs to improve his D. It might be a nice way to get him on the top 6 with the current log jam at C.

Lias still needs to work on skating and strength. Who knows if he is ready to be a full time NHLer until preseason? He might be the call at 4C, but he needs to win the job. Howden needs to play some in the AHL, why rush him? Hajek too.

As for Hayes, I get your view, even if I don't agree. All good. However, I'm not rushing to trade him or anybody. If there is a Dman or scorer or a draft target --- and the other team wants Hayes, then I'll consider trading him. Otherwise, prefer if the team lets the new coach sort it out. And the players can prove their value in the new system.

Sidenote: Spooner is a winger. He wants to play wing and mgmt knows. His weaknesses are defense and physicality. His strengths are his shot, skating and nifty puck handling outside the circle. He also sees the game and his cutting/trailing linemates well from the wing. He smells like a winger to me.

Giacomin
04-19-2018, 01:17 PM
Dolan



Link: https://nypost.com/2018/04/18/rangers-owner-reveals-what-he-wants-in-the-next-coach/

Wow, thanks. Well there you go. New coach will embrace analytics. That's good, we are getting modern.

Wonder who is that strong leader in the locker room, obviously no one on the team currently, unless he means Hank. Are we looking to make a bargain trade for a cap casualty who is still a tough leader, but no longer in his prime? Is it JT? Doesn't sound like it, but maybe. Kovy to lead the Russia parade? :confused:

And who is that one great player that may come available? Was hoping it would be Marner/Nylander, but Toronto may figure out how to hold both. Plus, we no longer have the ammo (McD) needed for Toronto. Who else will be in cap hell? Edm doesn't have the guy, no need for RNH. The Jets have Trouba, but he is not a "special player" Dolan is referring to.

Giacomin
04-19-2018, 01:47 PM
Our next captain and tough leader should be Josh Manson. In his prime, righty, contract is manageable and we have the ammo to tempt Anaheim.

They need offense and scoring badly!!! Our late 1st and 3rd plus Shatty and their choice of Spooner, Zuc, Names, Vesey. Even Hayes if they insist. Feel free to monkey with the return for Anaheim, but it seems this target could be gettable and solve some major needs for us.

Mark Stone would be another possibility for a captain and scorer, given his RFA status and his credibility among his teammates. He may be more beloved by his team than Manson. Unlike Manson, he is not someone we'd want sending a physical message.

josh
04-19-2018, 01:53 PM
says the guy saying we cant afford to trade pieces for Karlsson...

Giacomin
04-19-2018, 02:05 PM
says the guy saying we cant afford to trade pieces for Karlsson...

Not the same. That package can get Manson, that's not getting Karlsson. Nor is there an injury issue, for a 11 mil /7 year contract. Manson's contract is fine. I do not see it as hypocritical or the equivalent.

Giacomin
04-19-2018, 02:07 PM
Plus, I was trying to solve your desire for a tough, physical leader, not find the 'special' player. Given, they are both #1 RHDs.

josh
04-19-2018, 02:21 PM
Not the same. That package can get Manson, that's not getting Karlsson. Nor is there an injury issue, for a 11 mil /7 year contract. Manson's contract is fine. I do not see it as hypocritical or the equivalent.

You wont need to change much. Cap dump instead of Shattenkirk, add a pick and a prospect youve never heard of.
RH, Leader (has actually worn the C in the NHL), same age, 100x better offensively.

josh
04-19-2018, 02:23 PM
Plus, I was trying to solve your desire for a tough, physical leader, not find the 'special' player. Given, they are both #1 RHDs.

I was told playing through injuries makes you tougher than being hard to play against.

Future
04-19-2018, 02:26 PM
They need offense and scoring badly!!! Our late 1st and 3rd plus Shatty and their choice of Spooner, Zuc, Names, Vesey. Even Hayes if they insist. Feel free to monkey with the return for Anaheim, but it seems this target could be gettable and solve some major needs for us.
Manson is good but that's a massive overpayment for him. He's a second-pair D and alone isn't worth Zucc or Hayes. They have no use for Shatty b/c he defaults to the third pair with Fowler and Montour already there. A 20-something pick would be plenty and even then, he's not a guy who would move the need for this team. The Rangers are loaded with second-pair defense prospects, it's all they have lol.

If we're snooping around ANA, I'm asking for Getzlaf. They need to blow it up, and he could be a good get if they can't get JT.

phillyb™
04-19-2018, 02:42 PM
How do we know Manson is a locker room leader?
I don't think he wears a letter, does he?

Ozzy
04-19-2018, 02:46 PM
I say we have one of our own kids earn it and keep it.

No "C" for anyone until they prove they are THE GUY...

No need to waste resources for a has been or a wanna be. We may just draft it....or we may have it already....we have to wait and see.

josh
04-19-2018, 02:56 PM
I say we have one of our own kids earn it and keep it.

No "C" for anyone until they prove they are THE GUY...

No need to waste resources for a has been or a wanna be. We may just draft it....or we may have it already....we have to wait and see.
I think surrounding our players, and future leaders, with names that have been mentioned, only serves to benefit the team in the long-run.

I'd love Lias to learn from the likes of a Kovalchuk, Karlsson, Geztlaf or Tavares.

Future
04-19-2018, 03:02 PM
I say we have one of our own kids earn it and keep it.

No "C" for anyone until they prove they are THE GUY...

No need to waste resources for a has been or a wanna be. We may just draft it....or we may have it already....we have to wait and see.
None of the young guys are going to be able to prove it until like 2021.

jsrangers
04-19-2018, 03:09 PM
Manson is good but that's a massive overpayment for him. He's a second-pair D and alone isn't worth Zucc or Hayes. They have no use for Shatty b/c he defaults to the third pair with Fowler and Montour already there. A 20-something pick would be plenty and even then, he's not a guy who would move the need for this team. The Rangers are loaded with second-pair defense prospects, it's all they have lol.

If we're snooping around ANA, I'm asking for Getzlaf. They need to blow it up, and he could be a good get if they can't get JT.

I wouldn't even look at Getzlaf at that age and cap hit, he's not a goal scorer by any stretch. This is the kind of move they would of made in the past. I hope we're going down another path nowadays. Getting a guy a year (or three in this case) too late.

Ozzy
04-19-2018, 03:10 PM
None of the young guys are going to be able to prove it until like 2021.

That works for me....I'm gonna be patient with this one, Future. No need to rush these guys...I'd rather even see Kreider be a leader on this squad. I still feel our former coach didn't get as much out of this team and these players as he could.

Future
04-19-2018, 03:40 PM
I wouldn't even look at Getzlaf at that age and cap hit, he's not a goal scorer by any stretch. This is the kind of move they would of made in the past. I hope we're going down another path nowadays. Getting a guy a year (or three in this case) too late.
Getzlaf paced 89 points this year. No, he's not an elite goal scorer but he's still pretty much as good as it gets as a playmaker. Kreider could get to 40 goals playing with him.

I feel like a lot of people said the same thing about Joe Thornton 6 years ago.

Future
04-19-2018, 03:43 PM
That works for me....I'm gonna be patient with this one, Future. No need to rush these guys...I'd rather even see Kreider be a leader on this squad. I still feel our former coach didn't get as much out of this team and these players as he could.
Kreider's too robotic and in his own head to be a leader. If he was going to be, he'd already have a letter.

I agree AV didn't get everything out of the players but, at some point, these players deserve a lot of the blame for the overall lack of compete. I will never blame a coach for guys coming out flat, not battling for pucks, not skating hard, etc. etc. etc. I won't blame a captain either. Every player has off nights, but professional athletes should be self-motivated when it comes to effort. This team is full of front runners and that shit is poison.

josh
04-19-2018, 03:45 PM
https://content.sny.tv/assets/images/2/0/4/255724204/cuts/750x422/cut.jpg

Phil in Absentia
04-19-2018, 04:04 PM
He wore it in rotation with Zibanejad and Fast down the stretch with McDonagh traded.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Future
04-19-2018, 04:16 PM
https://content.sny.tv/assets/images/2/0/4/255724204/cuts/750x422/cut.jpg
A 5-game test run for a guy who has been with the franchise for 6 years doesn't mean anything, especially when he got it by default after 4 other guys were moved, and only as an afterthought to Fast.

josh
04-19-2018, 04:22 PM
A 5-game test run for a guy who has been with the franchise for 6 years doesn't mean anything, especially when he got it by default after 4 other guys were moved, and only as an afterthought to Fast.

yeah, thats kinda how the last 5 got the C.


I dont view Kreider as a captain, just sayin.

Giacomin
04-19-2018, 04:33 PM
Manson is good but that's a massive overpayment for him. He's a second-pair D and alone isn't worth Zucc or Hayes. They have no use for Shatty b/c he defaults to the third pair with Fowler and Montour already there. A 20-something pick would be plenty and even then, he's not a guy who would move the need for this team. The Rangers are loaded with second-pair defense prospects, it's all they have lol.

If we're snooping around ANA, I'm asking for Getzlaf. They need to blow it up, and he could be a good get if they can't get JT.

He'd be the best defensive dman on the team, skates well and adds some O and grit. A great partner for Skjei. He's a #2 with an offensive #1. No one else has the defensive chops and size to play against top liners. He'll cost less than half of Karlsson. We have no righty for the top pair, to play against top competition.

Anaheim may do a retool and they will certainly be looking for offense. Fowler is a lefty. Vatanen is gone. You want to pay less? Last 1st, Boston's 3rd and Shatty (more offense) and or Vesey. Sounds great, but I'd pay a little more, if necessary.

Future
04-19-2018, 04:38 PM
He's a #2 with an offensive #1.
This does not make the Rangers better. That's my point. They have a whole bunch of these guys. It's easy to find a partner for Erik Karlsson. It's really hard to find Erik Karlsson.

Giacomin
04-19-2018, 04:51 PM
How do we know Manson is a locker room leader?
I don't think he wears a letter, does he?

I've heard quotes from teammates. He also stands up for all his team mates on the ice. Mature and serious, plays every aspect of the game well, he's captain material. He also is emotional, but adult enough to keep himself in check. Unlike Hartman last night.

Here's a real good recent piece (https://www.ocregister.com/2018/03/14/ducks-josh-manson-might-never-be-satisfied-which-is-key-to-his-success/)with a whole section about leadership.

Fatfrancesa
04-19-2018, 06:12 PM
Overrating this captain thing a little bit maybe? How many wear a letter in this league not because of leadership but because of their experience or tenure?

Puck Head
04-19-2018, 06:58 PM
That would be a massive over payment for Manson.
He’s a 6th round pick and never excelled at any level.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Phil in Absentia
04-19-2018, 07:05 PM
Why does his draft position matter? Hank was a seventh-round pick. Does that make him valueless, too?


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Pete
04-19-2018, 07:07 PM
That would be a massive over payment for Manson.
He’s a 6th round pick and never excelled at any level.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)
Why does his draft position matter? Hank was a seventh-round pick. Does that make him valueless, too?


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)"Never excelled at any level"...

Phil in Absentia
04-19-2018, 07:08 PM
Except the NHL. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

jsrangers
04-19-2018, 07:28 PM
Would take him in a heartbeat - but why would they deal him? He's the least of their problems. With Bieksa coming off the cap Manson's big 4M bump is a wash.

phillyb™
04-19-2018, 07:33 PM
ANA doesn't move Manson unless it's an overpayment. After playing a lot of EA, I suggested a 4th round pick for Manson last season, and I was laughed at, rightfully so.

Puck Head
04-19-2018, 07:37 PM
Why does his draft position matter? Hank was a seventh-round pick. Does that make him valueless, too?


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Pedigree.
I know about Manson, and I know how responsible he is blue line down.

But...this is a 6th round draft pick that took 7 years to become a NHL player.
He was 5th amongst Duck defenseman in ice time.

The proposed trade was something you'd offer up for a elite defenseman, not a player such as Manson.

Phil in Absentia
04-19-2018, 07:50 PM
I'm not agreeing with the proposal. I'm just saying his draft position is irrelevant to his value.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Pete
04-19-2018, 07:52 PM
Except the NHL. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)As PH stated...it's competency...not excellence.

Phil in Absentia
04-19-2018, 07:53 PM
Rangers could use competency right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Pete
04-19-2018, 08:01 PM
Not at the price of 1st+3rd+quality player. That should get you Getzlaf. Not Manson.

Phil in Absentia
04-19-2018, 08:04 PM
I agree. Said just above I didn't agree with the proposal. I do see plenty of value in the player, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

The Dude
04-19-2018, 09:18 PM
I mean, sure, he has a chance, but the Rangers have a ton of depth at C.

Zib, Hayes, Namestnikov, Lias, Chytil is a lot of centers.

Im trying to trade Hayes and Namestikov. Shed salary, open doors and aquire a D man.

The Dude
04-19-2018, 09:24 PM
Did I say that because Kevin Hayes liked Thornton that he was him? He emulates a lot of his play in his game. I never said that he is like Thornton. They play similar styles. I mean the way you also describe Thornton isn't completely accurate, but you and I have gone back and forth on that before. You can go back and find those posts if you want.

Players can play in similar styles. That doesn't always mean they're as successful as everything they do. Haven't you ever read the term "stylistic comparison?" Hayes is a 40-50 point player because he lacks the overall talent that the players he idolized have/had.

It brings no context to the discussion. I can like a very productive player and dislike one who doesn't produce as much, even if they play a similar style (which I simply don't see).

Bringing up that I like Thornton accomplished what exactly?

One is a HOF who produces. The other is not, and IMO, doesn't have to be a Ranger any more, because his skill set is very replaceable. If Joe Thornton was in his 4th year as a Ranger, im not thinking he can be replaced by the teams top 2 prospects with ease.

Giacomin
04-19-2018, 09:28 PM
Pedigree.
I know about Manson, and I know how responsible he is blue line down.

But...this is a 6th round draft pick that took 7 years to become a NHL player.
He was 5th amongst Duck defenseman in ice time.

The proposed trade was something you'd offer up for a elite defenseman, not a player such as Manson.

Well he went to Northeastern and went to Anahein the next year. He needed to develop his skills and did. This is a well-rounded player. He's been rock steady as a defensive dman, tough and good skater. In this, his third full year he was 7G 30A in 80 and a plus 34. Over 20 minutes a game with 42% OZ starts. He's 26 y/o 6'3 215 injury free. Plays with smart controlled aggression and keeps scorers away from the net.

I'm not sure the 30th pick, 8Oth pick and Shatty (maybe Vesey) is a package for an elite Dman. However, I'd pay it for Josh and the Rangers would be so much better for it. Besides maybe bringing in de Haan in FA, where are we going to get a Dman that can help us like Manson? And at what cost?

Giacomin
04-19-2018, 09:31 PM
And Future didn't you tell me I was crazy in Oct when I suggested McD for Marner str8 up? You said Toronto needed to add more. This would be another good trade and Ranger fans would be espousing the play, leadership and toughness of Manson, if he were here.

Edit: And Anaheim traded Theodore in expansion to protect the defensive group.

The Dude
04-19-2018, 09:40 PM
No no no, you're reading me wrong. I think Chytil is probably ready for the NHL and should win a spot on the top 9 in camp. The only reasons to suggest the wing is some coaches like to alleviate the extra defensive responsibilities of a C. Babcock did it with Nylander and Marner, for that reason and because of Matthews. Chytil has played wing and still needs to improve his D. It might be a nice way to get him on the top 6 with the current log jam at C.

Lias still needs to work on skating and strength. Who knows if he is ready to be a full time NHLer until preseason? He might be the call at 4C, but he needs to win the job. Howden needs to play some in the AHL, why rush him? Hajek too.

As for Hayes, I get your view, even if I don't agree. All good. However, I'm not rushing to trade him or anybody. If there is a Dman or scorer or a draft target --- and the other team wants Hayes, then I'll consider trading him. Otherwise, prefer if the team lets the new coach sort it out. And the players can prove their value in the new system.

Sidenote: Spooner is a winger. He wants to play wing and mgmt knows. His weaknesses are defense and physicality. His strengths are his shot, skating and nifty puck handling outside the circle. He also sees the game and his cutting/trailing linemates well from the wing. He smells like a winger to me.

The Rangers need to just let these kids play. If they suck on D, then so be it. I feel this is where AV stumbled. If a player was weak in an aspect of their game. He decided to pigeon hole them into a role that required the deficiency, in an effort to force them to adapt to that style.

I have not mentioned bringing Hajek up quickly. Although it wouldn't hurt to say hes currently in the running for an NHL job.

If the Rangers get JT, they cant pay Hayes or Namestikov. I put them on the block very quickly. If JT isnt in the plans? Fine. Bridge them both.

Spooner has not said he WANTS to play wing. Hes said he was reluctant to make the switch and is now happy he did. I think he said he still prefers center, bit has no problem extending his resume on either eing. Again I play the player in their comfort zone. His defense is questionable? Well thats why hes your penciled in at 3rd line center or winger, with the possibility of slotting up to 2nd line if need be (2-3 players need to fail hard for that to happen). I want a guy who can dish the puck to play the traditional position where such players play. Center.

phillyb™
04-19-2018, 09:40 PM
Can't use "ad nauseam" in a sentence but teaches me the word espouse.
Wow. You never...
Oh, that's Giac, not The Dude.

I thought I was caught in a series of non-multi-quoters...

OH I WAS, JUST THE WRONG OFFENDER.

Where are my wingz?

The Dude
04-19-2018, 09:42 PM
Plus, I was trying to solve your desire for a tough, physical leader, not find the 'special' player. Given, they are both #1 RHDs.

I know hes Daves son, but is Manson even tough or very physical?

Giacomin
04-19-2018, 10:04 PM
I know hes Daves son, but is Manson even tough or very physical?

For sure, great checker and can really lay the body. Intimidating in front of his net too. Non goons do not want to tangle with him. He is disciplined though and does not go out of position to kill a guy or take a dumb penalty. Read the article I linked.

Phillyb, are you saying I need to start using ad nauseum in my posts? I'll try. You need to start getting your wings in upstate NY.

The Dude
04-19-2018, 10:15 PM
I agree. Said just above I didn't agree with the proposal. I do see plenty of value in the player, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

I agree. Or maybe a RFA like former Duck Theodore.

The Dude
04-19-2018, 10:24 PM
Can't use "ad nauseam" in a sentence but teaches me the word espouse.
Wow. You never...
Oh, that's Giac, not The Dude.

I thought I was caught in a series of non-multi-quoters...

OH I WAS, JUST THE WRONG OFFENDER.

Where are my wingz?

Sorry, i don't like lumping all the quotes in one post man. I feel responding individually, is a bit cleaner and doesn't confuse subject matter to both my dumb self and who im having a discussion with as well as anyone who wants to add to the discussion. Its a lot easier to respond one by one on the shitter or on the run.

Puck Head
04-20-2018, 12:02 AM
As PH stated...it's competency...not excellence.

My brother




Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Puck Head
04-20-2018, 12:04 AM
And Future didn't you tell me I was crazy in Oct when I suggested McD for Marner str8 up? You said Toronto needed to add more. This would be another good trade and Ranger fans would be espousing the play, leadership and toughness of Manson, if he were here.

Edit: And Anaheim traded Theodore in expansion to protect the defensive group.

At the time i said I’d drive McDonagh myself for Nykander and throw in Vesey or Hayes


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

phillyb™
04-20-2018, 01:27 AM
For sure, great checker and can really lay the body. Intimidating in front of his net too. Non goons do not want to tangle with him. He is disciplined though and does not go out of position to kill a guy or take a dumb penalty. Read the article I linked.

Phillyb, are you saying I need to start using ad nauseum in my posts? I'll try. You need to start getting your wings in upstate NY.

Upstate, NY?
Excuse me while I brush off my grew-up-in-the-city card: What the fuck is upstate NY?
I spent a semester in Albany.
I drove 88 from nowhere, ny to nowhere, ny.
But excuse me while Buffalo exists.

I'll take my naïvety elsewhere. lol.


Sorry, i don't like lumping all the quotes in one post man. I feel responding individually, is a bit cleaner and doesn't confuse subject matter to both my dumb self and who im having a discussion with as well as anyone who wants to add to the discussion. Its a lot easier to respond one by one on the shitter or on the run.

Ha, I can actually appreciate that way too much for me not to hate it. hahahaha.

Re: Manson.
Why does ANA move him without a HUGE chunk going the other way?
It's just not gonna happen. We could talk about this ad nauseam, and it won't make a difference.

Mike
04-20-2018, 07:41 AM
Manson? Wha ? Foh

Why do people give a fuck about who gets letters like they’re the ones in the room with them? I don’t give a fuck if Phillyb was the captain, just win some fuckin games. I agree with Pete on this 100%, letters are over rated.

jsm7302
04-20-2018, 08:00 AM
Team's need leaders. Some have the innate qualities to do it regardless of a letter on the sweater. More of a formality than anything. The team knows the guys and who they need to listen to and emulate. Bring in a respected vet and give him the C so he can fight the on ice battles with the refs and handle the burden that goes along with it. Let the rest of the team develop.

Think of all of the people in a normal job whom are useless managers yet have some very qualified productive employees work below them. Throw a new manager in this position whom all respect and want to emulate and suddenly this office works a lot harder because they respect the individual in this position now. Smartest and most productive doesnt make the best manager/captain. Hard work and sound decision making are the foundations of a good leader.

Vodka Drunkenski
04-20-2018, 08:23 AM
Isn’t that a coach?

Future
04-20-2018, 09:01 AM
And Future didn't you tell me I was crazy in Oct when I suggested McD for Marner str8 up? You said Toronto needed to add more. This would be another good trade and Ranger fans would be espousing the play, leadership and toughness of Manson, if he were here.

Edit: And Anaheim traded Theodore in expansion to protect the defensive group.
Yea, and at the time it was true - adding Marner and taking out Mac would not have made this team better.

And nobody is saying Manson isn't a good player. But a first, third and roster player for 2008 Dan Girardi is way, way too high.

Future
04-20-2018, 09:09 AM
Upstate, NY?
Excuse me while I brush off my grew-up-in-the-city card: What the fuck is upstate NY?
I spent a semester in Albany.
I drove 88 from nowhere, ny to nowhere, ny.
But excuse me while Buffalo exists.

I'll take my naïvety elsewhere. lol..
Albany is not Upstate

Signed,
An Upstater

Ozzy
04-20-2018, 09:34 AM
Albany is not Upstate

Signed,
An Upstater

Anything above Westchester is "Upstate" when you live on Long Island!!!

Hey man, I still wanna see what this team can do with a real coach behind the bench before I can make any evaluations about pretty much ANY of these players. I can't help but throw out the last 2 seasons because I really feel like they can do more and play A LOT harder than what I was watching on my "now dented and broken" TV.

I really couldn't stomach watching that style of pussy play. No team took more crap, and played as heartless and as gutless as these past AV teams.

I wanna see them now, under a REAL coach. Phil, I hope your guy is an absolute ASS KICKER, because this team has a lot of potential coming up in the way of youth and I'm tired of watching them slap the opposing teams with their purses!

Hey Future, I'm calling it now my man....you watch; I bet you see shit outta players you never thought under a new director behind the bench. I've seen it before...and it's gonna be something to behold when it happens in the coming years...We deserve it... we're the best fan base out there and everyone knows it! They give us something to get excited about and we're going to be back at the Garden in droves.

Future
04-20-2018, 09:51 AM
Anything above Westchester is "Upstate" when you live on Long Island!!!

Hey man, I still wanna see what this team can do with a real coach behind the bench before I can make any evaluations about pretty much ANY of these players. I can't help but throw out the last 2 seasons because I really feel like they can do more and play A LOT harder than what I was watching on my "now dented and broken" TV.
That's like saying anything south of DC is Florida! lol

I'm sorry, but I refuse to let players off the hook for not giving effort. Effort is coach-agnostic. Guys like Buch and Skjei showed what they're made of after the Mac went out on 2/7.

BlairBettsBlocksEverything
04-20-2018, 09:52 AM
Albany is not Upstate

Signed,
An Upstater

ha this same debate has been raging on twitter in the political sphere.

As someone who lives in Albany, yes its upstate

As someone who grew up in NYC, upstate starts after Poughkeepsie.

Phil in Absentia
04-20-2018, 10:02 AM
Upstate NY is everything north of Poughkeepsie but to the East. Buffalo, Rochester, etc belong to Western NY.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

BlairBettsBlocksEverything
04-20-2018, 10:15 AM
Upstate NY is everything north of Poughkeepsie but to the East. Buffalo, Rochester, etc belong to Western NY.


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

WNY is still upstate

Ozzy
04-20-2018, 10:31 AM
That's like saying anything south of DC is Florida! lol

I'm sorry, but I refuse to let players off the hook for not giving effort. Effort is coach-agnostic. Guys like Buch and Skjei showed what they're made of after the Mac went out on 2/7.

I hear ya, believe me....but they're just kids... I know. It's a shitty excuse, but they are. I think under a coach that is a little more geared for today's NHL is going to snap these spoiled punks back to reality, make them grow up a little and get their shit in gear!

Long live the King
04-20-2018, 10:44 AM
What about the Southern Tier?


:bravery:









:hijacked:

BlairBettsBlocksEverything
04-20-2018, 11:01 AM
What about the Southern Tier?


:bravery:









:hijacked:

still upstate no doubts about it

I came up with this theory the other day

the line starts at poughkeepsie. You go west until you hit 209 and then follow 209 down south. anything below that line is downstate, anything about it is upstate. Going east, you follow 55. anything north of that is upstate, anything below is downstate

josh
04-20-2018, 11:14 AM
Poughkeepsie is practically downtown Manhattan

Future
04-20-2018, 11:27 AM
I hear ya, believe me....but they're just kids... I know. It's a shitty excuse, but they are. I think under a coach that is a little more geared for today's NHL is going to snap these spoiled punks back to reality, make them grow up a little and get their shit in gear!
They're 23 and 24, that's not kids.

I don't think that a coach can teach players to compete, or he shouldn't have to.

Future
04-20-2018, 11:28 AM
This should help clarify...
https://i.imgur.com/ON2G7iX.gif

phillyb™
04-20-2018, 12:07 PM
Upstate NY is everything north of Poughkeepsie but to the East. Buffalo, Rochester, etc belong to Western NY.



WNY is still upstate

I would tend to agree. Ozzy said it best, anything north of fucking westchester is upstate. Nyack is upstate.
Terrytown is upstate.

And no @Future

https://i.imgur.com/BopJD7u.png

That big old photobucket pic doesn't explain shit. lol

Ozzy
04-20-2018, 12:25 PM
:rofl:

You guys make me piss my pants some days!!!!

Future
04-20-2018, 12:27 PM
I would tend to agree. Ozzy said it best, anything north of fucking westchester is upstate. Nyack is upstate.
Terrytown is upstate.

And no @Future

https://i.imgur.com/BopJD7u.png

That big old photobucket pic doesn't explain shit. lol
Lol for crying out loud, how about now?

phillyb™
04-20-2018, 12:28 PM
Use imgur my man. Fuck your photobucket account.

Future
04-20-2018, 12:30 PM
Use imgur my man. Fuck your photobucket account.
I just did but the first time I used imgur it didn't work either

Ozzy
04-20-2018, 12:33 PM
Not big enough!

josh
04-20-2018, 12:37 PM
Not big enough!

I bet you hear that a lot

phillyb™
04-20-2018, 12:40 PM
I just did but the first time I used imgur it didn't work either

user error
PEBCAK
etc.

Giacomin
04-20-2018, 01:20 PM
Upstate, NY?
Excuse me while I brush off my grew-up-in-the-city card: What the fuck is upstate NY?
I spent a semester in Albany.
I drove 88 from nowhere, ny to nowhere, ny.
But excuse me while Buffalo exists.

I'll take my naïvety elsewhere. lol.


What city? That dirty city of brotherly suck, Mr PhillyB? You get no street cred for eating wings on South St. ;)

As someone from the real city - Brooklyn/Queens in the house - we never heard of Buffalo Wings. Moved to NJ, still nothin. Went to SU and it was like... WTF are these things we eating with our beer? All my Buffalo friends schooled me, maybe one day they will school you with the real deal.

Yeah, I'm up near Albany now. Doesn't mean I don't get around like a cheap whore. Albany is famous for being two hours from a good city in any direction, You wanna fight about it or somethin? BTW, Buffalo isn't even in NY state. i think it's in some Province or something.

phillyb™
04-20-2018, 01:23 PM
I grew up in Manhattan. I know no other city that goes by "the city."
And FUCK PHILLY, the city.
The name on the other hand? I love my name, it means lover of horses.

Giacomin
04-20-2018, 01:32 PM
I grew up in Manhattan. I know no other city that goes by "the city."
And FUCK PHILLY, the city.
The name on the other hand? I love my name, it means lover of horses.

woah woah, easy there.

Are you trying to say you are not philthy? Are you really in the Windy City or just pretending to be a hipster?

phillyb™
04-20-2018, 02:16 PM
I'm philthy phil philanthropist.
I have lived in NYC, PA, VT, Los Angeles, and Chicago. I currently reside in Chicago.

josh
04-20-2018, 02:20 PM
You look like you should live in Vermont

phillyb™
04-20-2018, 02:59 PM
I hated VT when I lived there. I was so happy to move out, only problem - I moved to LA. And FUCK LA. Fuck the weather. Fuck the people. Fuck everything about that city.
Had to move back east. Brought the girl with me. We accelerated our relationship by moving in together.
We built it, just like the Rangers are doing.

Our next place very well might be a remote area a la VT.
Or it might not even be in the states, who knows.

Ozzy
04-20-2018, 03:00 PM
I bet you hear that a lot

too often ;)

ThirtyONE
04-20-2018, 03:29 PM
I hated VT when I lived there. I was so happy to move out, only problem - I moved to LA. And FUCK LA. Fuck the weather. Fuck the people. Fuck everything about that city.
Had to move back east. Brought the girl with me. We accelerated our relationship by moving in together.
We built it, just like the Rangers are doing.

Our next place very well might be a remote area a la VT.
Or it might not even be in the states, who knows.

How long did you live in LA? I'm here now, been here for 6 years and it took me a long time to love it.

Giacomin
04-20-2018, 03:29 PM
I hated VT when I lived there. I was so happy to move out, only problem - I moved to LA. And FUCK LA. Fuck the weather. Fuck the people. Fuck everything about that city.
Had to move back east. Brought the girl with me. We accelerated our relationship by moving in together.
We built it, just like the Rangers are doing.

Damn, man o the world. What made you go from VT to LA. More along the lines of VT to Santa Cruz or maybe Berkeley. You hated the weather?



Our next place very well might be a remote area a la VT.
Or it might not even be in the states, who knows.

Belize

phillyb™
04-20-2018, 03:48 PM
How long did you live in LA? I'm here now, been here for 6 years and it took me a long time to love it.

About 4.5-5 years I think. I also lived in the valley, which was my first mistake.
That being said, In N Out is the most overrated garbage I've ever had.
Tommy's is way too cult for me.
Everything is 'spensive.
The traffic is garbage.
The people are generally stupid and lackadaisical. I could go on, but I won't. lol.


Damn, man o the world. What made you go from VT to LA. More along the lines of VT to Santa Cruz or maybe Berkeley. You hated the weather?

Yes, I start sweating at like 65 degrees. Triple digit weather during fucking Christmas season isn't my idea of fun.
My memory also works in a way that I use seasons to help me associate a timeline.



Belize

I'm leaning toward Spain, but idk, they gotta get their shit together.
Belize will also be too hot for me, no?

ThirtyONE
04-20-2018, 04:17 PM
About 4.5-5 years I think. I also lived in the valley, which was my first mistake.
That being said, In N Out is the most overrated garbage I've ever had.
Tommy's is way too cult for me.
Everything is 'spensive.
The traffic is garbage.
The people are generally stupid and lackadaisical. I could go on, but I won't. lol.



Yes, I start sweating at like 65 degrees. Triple digit weather during fucking Christmas season isn't my idea of fun.
My memory also works in a way that I use seasons to help me associate a timeline.



I'm leaning toward Spain, but idk, they gotta get their shit together.
Belize will also be too hot for me, no?

In-N-Out is fast food. It's like people getting hyped about Taco Bell. It's garbage food. Never been to Tommy's. I didn't know it was supposed to be a thing.

The Valley sucks ass, so you got that right. I work there now and then, it seems like it's always 100+ degrees.

I like LA now though. I live in Silverlake. Never lived in a place like it. I'll never go back.

Giacomin
04-20-2018, 04:24 PM
Everything is 'spensive.
The traffic is garbage.

True, true. The traffic is the clincher though. Makes it intolerable. 31, you must work nearby or virtual.



I'm leaning toward Spain, but idk, they gotta get their shit together.
Belize will also be too hot for me, no?

Spain, wow. Lot's of beautiful spots. As for Belize, English and the dollar and tax breaks make it attractive. You'd have to want to live by the water (boat/fish/scuba) to appreciate and enjoy the breeze and Mesoamerican reef and sea. Inland can be more humid, some rainforests, some less breezy spots and a different type of living. Worth a visit.

Pete
04-20-2018, 06:01 PM
In-N-Out is fast food. It's like people getting hyped about Taco Bell. It's garbage food. Never been to Tommy's. I didn't know it was supposed to be a thing.

The Valley sucks ass, so you got that right. I work there now and then, it seems like it's always 100+ degrees.

I like LA now though. I live in Silverlake. Never lived in a place like it. I'll never go back.What do you do? I hear Silver Lake is tits.

ThirtyONE
04-20-2018, 06:49 PM
What do you do? I hear Silver Lake is tits.

I work in film. I'm not rich by any means but the lady and I have fine enough apartment and a great location. The thing that still hasn't become normal yet is the amount of wildlife I've seen. I'm from NJ where you see deer every now and then but it's wild to see Coyotes and Bobcats walking through the streets like it's no big deal.

I've lived all over and I'm hoping to never leave Silverlake. It's by far the best place I've lived in LA.

The Dude
04-21-2018, 11:08 AM
Manson? Wha ? Foh

Why do people give a fuck about who gets letters like they’re the ones in the room with them? I don’t give a fuck if Phillyb was the captain, just win some fuckin games. I agree with Pete on this 100%, letters are over rated.

I agree, but im just wondering why you thought letters mattered in the Smith broken hand thread?



Fighting someone when you’re the captain of the team is different than fighting someone in the AHL after you’ve been sent down, no?





No.




Yes



Rabbit season.
Duck season.

Or were you agreeing with me lol?

Puck Head
04-21-2018, 12:07 PM
I work in film. I'm not rich by any means but the lady and I have fine enough apartment and a great location. The thing that still hasn't become normal yet is the amount of wildlife I've seen. I'm from NJ where you see deer every now and then but it's wild to see Coyotes and Bobcats walking through the streets like it's no big deal.

I've lived all over and I'm hoping to never leave Silverlake. It's by far the best place I've lived in LA.

Silverlake Los Angelos ??


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

ThirtyONE
04-21-2018, 12:43 PM
Silverlake Los Angelos ??


Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92212)

Yessir