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Slobberknocker
11-16-2015, 01:19 PM
http://www.latimes.com/sports/ducks/la-sp-ducks-road-trip-20151116-story.html


Already demoted to the fourth line, Hagelin spent the entire third period planted on the bench last Friday. He couldn't remember that happening in his career. Ever.

"Of course it stings, but I did it to myself," Hagelin said.

Guess he's having a tough time with a new system.

phillyb™
11-16-2015, 01:53 PM
we should have an ex-rangers thread. i've wanted to post about talbot in edmonton recently, but whatever.
i don't watch too many ducks games, what's their system like?

Mike
11-16-2015, 01:56 PM
I don't care if they use a duck, duck, goose system. A player with his speed should have no problem playing any system. It's only 1 thing .... Between the ears.

Lt. Dan
11-16-2015, 03:20 PM
I don't care if they use a duck, duck, goose system. A player with his speed should have no problem playing any system. It's only 1 thing .... Between the ears.

I question how bad he could be playing though... I've only watched 3 Duck games this year, but the level of sick from the whole team was astounding

Slobberknocker
11-16-2015, 04:18 PM
we should have an ex-rangers thread. i've wanted to post about talbot in edmonton recently, but whatever.
i don't watch too many ducks games, what's their system like?

our buddy cam is off to a rough start. 3-8 and getting lit up a bit. surely the oilers trade rumors will flow again soon enough looking to trade their stick boy for 4 1st rounders.

Mike
11-16-2015, 04:30 PM
I question how bad he could be playing though... I've only watched 3 Duck games this year, but the level of sick from the whole team was astounding

Is the new guy going to be a whipping boy that quickly? Doubtful.

ThirtyONE
11-16-2015, 05:05 PM
I've watched a few Ducks and Oilers games and from what I've seen Cam has played well (no soft goals from what I've seen) and Hagelin has been invisible. I actually haven't seen him on the ice in any game I've watched, which is amazing considering how well he played here.

Future
11-16-2015, 05:05 PM
we should have an ex-rangers thread. i've wanted to post about talbot in edmonton recently, but whatever.
i don't watch too many ducks games, what's their system like?
It's got nothing to do with system.

They signed him with the hope that he'd be a top 6 scoring player on a team that has had success playing a physical, front-of-the net game. The exact role he plays - great speed, defensive guy, 15 goals, PKer - was already filled by Andrew Cogliano.

Future
11-16-2015, 05:06 PM
I've watched a few Ducks and Oilers games and from what I've seen Cam has played well (no soft goals from what I've seen) and Hagelin has been invisible. I actually haven't seen him on the ice in any game I've watched, which is amazing considering how well he played here.
He was invisible a lot here, especially last year.

Johnnydollaz18
11-16-2015, 05:06 PM
our buddy cam is off to a rough start. 3-8 and getting lit up a bit. surely the oilers trade rumors will flow again soon enough looking to trade their stick boy for 4 1st rounders.

But he's better than Hank! :rolleyes:

Dunny
11-16-2015, 06:01 PM
our buddy cam is off to a rough start. 3-8 and getting lit up a bit. surely the oilers trade rumors will flow again soon enough looking to trade their stick boy for 4 1st rounders.

I thought he'd win the Vezina as soon as he got away from awful defencemen like Girardi and Staal :rolleyes:

Pete
11-16-2015, 06:23 PM
I thought he'd win the Vezina as soon as he got away from awful defencemen like Girardi and Staal :rolleyes:

And consequently, if either those players played on Edmonton, in front of their collection of goalies, they'd likely not have the contracts they do.

Mostly G, but also post-injury Staal.

Dunny
11-16-2015, 06:40 PM
You guys are so hard on Girardi :(

Pete
11-16-2015, 06:42 PM
You guys are so hard on Girardi :(

Girardi's heart and willingness to put his body in front of Hank will never be questioned. And now that he's slowing down considerably, Hank is returning the favor.

phillyb™
11-16-2015, 06:55 PM
Girardi's heart and willingness to put his body in front of Hank will never be questioned. And now that he's slowing down considerably, Hank is returning the favor.

10/10 would read this post again.
it's got such a backstory and i love it. well said.

Dunny
11-16-2015, 07:09 PM
10/10 would read this post again.
it's got such a backstory and i love it. well said.

That's deep.

























Put the bong down. :)

Respecttheblue
11-16-2015, 08:27 PM
Girardi's heart and willingness to put his body in front of Hank will never be questioned. And now that he's slowing down considerably, Hank is returning the favor.

Dig the sentiment and the observation, although I'm not sure that Hank hasn't gone to another level this year so far. ... well at least as far as starting the season is concerned.

phillyb™
11-16-2015, 08:33 PM
Put the bong down. :)

NO! :slats:

Morphinity
11-16-2015, 09:34 PM
Goal and two assists tonight for Hagelin. Looks like he got the message.

Pete
11-16-2015, 09:58 PM
Goal and two assists tonight for Hagelin. Looks like he got the message.

Maybe the guy who scored 17 goals from the 3rd line with no PP time...isn't actually as bad as people try to make him out to be?

Nah, that can't be it? Can it?

Yea, that's probably accurate.

Morphinity
11-16-2015, 10:06 PM
I haven't really ever seen a criticism of Hagelin that wasn't warranted.

Pete
11-16-2015, 10:31 PM
Oh, I have.

The worst thing about him was his new contract. He wasn't invisible or a stupid player. Quite the opposite, actually.

If your mitts aren't Datsyuk, that doesn't make you a scrub.

17 goals from a 3rd liner? Teams kill for that.

Morphinity
11-16-2015, 10:35 PM
Okay then

Myusername
11-16-2015, 11:36 PM
~15 goals is pretty average third line production. He's not a scrub, but he's a 3rd liner for sure... making almost 5 million now. Anyway, he isn't going to make or break that team just like he didn't make or break ours

Pete
11-17-2015, 06:39 AM
~15 goals is pretty average third line production. He's not a scrub, but he's a 3rd liner for sure... making almost 5 million now. Anyway, he isn't going to make or break that team just like he didn't make or break ours

Hagelin scored 2 less goals than Brassard and more goals than Zuccarello last year. With no PP time. He also scored more than Stepan, but Stepan was hurt....Again with no PP time. He scored as many as Hayes...With no PP time. See the recurring theme? 17 goals with no PP time is not what an average third liner gets. That's pretty much a fabricated statement.

Here's a list of players who scored 17 goals last year.

Zetterberg
Spezza
Brent Burns
ROR
Ryan Strome
Jagr
Kevin Hayes
Perron
Kunitz
Elias Lindholm
Arcobello
Joe Thornton
Kopitar
Palat

Hagelin had .82 Goals/60...Other players with .82 Goals/60

Duchene
Hall (Taylor, not Adam)
Joel Ward
Lucic
Strome
Ennis
D. Sedin


There's way more top 6 players there than bottom 6, and they almost all get PP time.

If you're going to make a claim that 15 goals is average third line production, please support that claim.

Mike
11-17-2015, 06:54 AM
If all 3rd liners were averaging 15 goals they should consider shrinking the nets.

Future
11-17-2015, 09:41 AM
Hagelin scored 2 less goals than Brassard and more goals than Zuccarello last year. With no PP time. He also scored more than Stepan, but Stepan was hurt....Again with no PP time. He scored as many as Hayes...With no PP time. See the recurring theme? 17 goals with no PP time is not what an average third liner gets. That's pretty much a fabricated statement.

Here's a list of players who scored 17 goals last year.

Zetterberg
Spezza
Brent Burns
ROR
Ryan Strome
Jagr
Kevin Hayes
Perron
Kunitz
Elias Lindholm
Arcobello
Joe Thornton
Kopitar
Palat

Hagelin had .82 Goals/60...Other players with .82 Goals/60

Duchene
Hall (Taylor, not Adam)
Joel Ward
Lucic
Strome
Ennis
D. Sedin


There's way more top 6 players there than bottom 6, and they almost all get PP time.

If you're going to make a claim that 15 goals is average third line production, please support that claim.
I agree that 15 goals from a third liner is pretty solid, but you can't make this argument and leave out guys like Eric Fehr (19), Shawn Matthias (18), Jimmy Hayes (19), Jason Zucker (21) who all had less ice time than Hags but outscored him. There are plenty of guys who had a goal or two less, and saw more than a minute less per game: Bernier (16), Hansen (16), Buoma (16), Stempniak (15), B Boyle (15). None of those guys played over 14:00/pg and 3 were under 13:00/pg....Hags was at 15:13.

Sans Zucker and Hayes, who missed 31 and 10 games due to injury, they're all PKers so seeing roughly the same ice as Hags and putting up the same numbers in less TOI than Hags. Goal scoring does not tell the whole story with any player, certainly not with Hags. He's not in the same league, offensively, as Kopitar and the like.

Pete
11-17-2015, 09:48 AM
I agree that 15 goals from a third liner is pretty solid, but you can't make this argument and leave out guys like Eric Fehr (19), Shawn Matthias (18), Jimmy Hayes (19), Jason Zucker (21) who all had less ice time than Hags but outscored him. There are plenty of guys who had a goal or two less, and saw more than a minute less per game: Bernier (16), Hansen (16), Buoma (16), Stempniak (15), B Boyle (15). None of those guys played over 14:00/pg and 3 were under 13:00/pg....Hags was at 15:13.

Sans Zucker and Hayes, who missed 31 and 10 games due to injury, they're all PKers so seeing roughly the same ice as Hags and putting up the same numbers in less TOI than Hags. Goal scoring does not tell the whole story with any player, certainly not with Hags. He's not in the same league, offensively, as Kopitar and the like.

It's irrelevant to the point. 15 goals is not average for a third liner.

Mister D
11-17-2015, 10:19 AM
Hagelin is like hockey's version of the Peter Principle. As a 3rd liner occasionally filling in above who excels on the PK, he was awesome, especially in our system. If he did disappear a bit from the scoresheet, it didn't matter because he was still doing the exact things you expect out of a guy like him. When its "why isn't this former 6th rounder scoring 25 now", and the only reason for those expectations is because he scored high teens the last year, you end up with people finding flaws.

Future
11-17-2015, 10:20 AM
It's irrelevant to the point. 15 goals is not average for a third liner.
Ok, let's say 15:00-16:000 is average TOI for a third liner.

The average goals scored for those players last year, who played in over 50 games was 12.3. That doesn't include guys like Brandon Sutter, Clark McArthur, Joel Ward, etc. who would drive that number up.

So 15 goals might be just over the average, but not by much.

Pete
11-17-2015, 10:47 AM
Ok, let's say 15:00-16:000 is average TOI for a third liner.

The average goals scored for those players last year, who played in over 50 games was 12.3. That doesn't include guys like Brandon Sutter, Clark McArthur, Joel Ward, etc. who would drive that number up.

So 15 goals might be just over the average, but not by much.

Impossible to use those broad strokes. What's the ES breakdown? What's the PK TOI?

I get what what you are trying to say, and if I were comparing Hagelin to first liners, I'd see where you were going with your last post. But Hags scored more that most third liners, 15 goals isn't the average, and Hags doesn't suck. Which is really the bottom line.

He's paid exactly what market value is, he's miscast on a bad team, but people here act like he's some 4th line scrub.

The Rangers shouldn't have paid Carl Hagelin what he got, but he got what the market dictated, and I think it's kind of silly to use a bad start to try and prove he's somehow not a good hockey player.

Future
11-17-2015, 11:21 AM
Impossible to use those broad strokes. What's the ES breakdown? What's the PK TOI?

I get what what you are trying to say, and if I were comparing Hagelin to first liners, I'd see where you were going with your last post. But Hags scored more that most third liners, 15 goals isn't the average, and Hags doesn't suck. Which is really the bottom line.

He's paid exactly what market value is, he's miscast on a bad team, but people here act like he's some 4th line scrub.

The Rangers shouldn't have paid Carl Hagelin what he got, but he got what the market dictated, and I think it's kind of silly to use a bad start to try and prove he's somehow not a good hockey player.
That's exactly what you did.

So if comparing him to first liners is relevant, then comparing him to 4th liners is certainly relevant. Since the TOI and situational use is closer to the 4th liners, I think that's a more significant comparison.

Pete
11-17-2015, 11:41 AM
That's exactly what you did.

So if comparing him to first liners is relevant, then comparing him to 4th liners is certainly relevant. Since the TOI and situational use is closer to the 4th liners, I think that's a more significant comparison.

Not at all what I did. I listed 17 goal scorers. That's all that list was.

You're spinning. I proved my point though.

Future
11-17-2015, 11:51 AM
Not at all what I did. I listed 17 goal scorers. That's all that list was.

You're spinning. I proved my point though.
"way more top 6 players than bottom 6"...and whether you call them out as first liners or not, they still are. I'm not spinning anything.

And if that's all that list was, then it has no meaning. Without the context of what line those guys are on, simply comparing goal totals is erroneous unless your point is that Hags is as good as all of those guys. And if that's the case, then all of the guys who score more goals in less ice time than Hags are all better. If you're making the comparison that Hags scores the same as first liners, then that's actually a decent point, but it means you have to do the same with 4th liners. You don't want to do that, because it doesn't fit your narrative.

So no, you didn't prove anything, at least not with that list.

Pete
11-17-2015, 12:38 PM
"way more top 6 players than bottom 6"...and whether you call them out as first liners or not, they still are. I'm not spinning anything.

And if that's all that list was, then it has no meaning. Without the context of what line those guys are on, simply comparing goal totals is erroneous unless your point is that Hags is as good as all of those guys. And if that's the case, then all of the guys who score more goals in less ice time than Hags are all better. If you're making the comparison that Hags scores the same as first liners, then that's actually a decent point, but it means you have to do the same with 4th liners. You don't want to do that, because it doesn't fit your narrative.

So no, you didn't prove anything, at least not with that list.

I made my point various times. I won't keep repeating myself.

I'll copy and paste for the last time, or until you address the point. But maybe you won't since it doesn't fit your narrative. Or maybe it will, since you haven't really made it clear what your point is, other than just to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

Hags scored more that most third liners, 15 goals isn't the average, and Hags doesn't suck. Which is really the bottom line.

He's paid exactly what market value is, he's miscast on a bad team, but people here act like he's some 4th line scrub.

The Rangers shouldn't have paid Carl Hagelin what he got, but he got what the market dictated, and I think it's kind of silly to use a bad start to try and prove he's somehow not a good hockey player.

Future
11-17-2015, 02:23 PM
I never said he was a bad hockey player. I said he's not a scorer, so there's no need for the "Hags doesn't suck" and "he's some 4th line scrub" rhetoric.

Making your point and proving it are two different things. I was responding to you saying you "proved" it. And you have not proved that he scored more than most third liners....actually I did finding that the average for his TOI is lower than what he scored. But I also showed you a whole bunch of guys who play fewer minutes and scored more goals, which would change that number.

So until you go out and do something that shows him vs. other third line players, the idea that he's a better than average scorer is just you saying so. That's not good enough for me, so maybe you'll just have to keep repeating yourself.

My whole point is that he's not a top 6 scorer and this isn't really a surprise anyways, so I'm not sure why you have such an aggressive tone about it.

Pete
11-17-2015, 03:37 PM
I never said he was a bad hockey player. I said he's not a scorer, so there's no need for the "Hags doesn't suck" and "he's some 4th line scrub" rhetoric.

Making your point and proving it are two different things. I was responding to you saying you "proved" it. And you have not proved that he scored more than most third liners....actually I did finding that the average for his TOI is lower than what he scored. But I also showed you a whole bunch of guys who play fewer minutes and scored more goals, which would change that number.

So until you go out and do something that shows him vs. other third line players, the idea that he's a better than average scorer is just you saying so. That's not good enough for me, so maybe you'll just have to keep repeating yourself.

My whole point is that he's not a top 6 scorer and this isn't really a surprise anyways, so I'm not sure why you have such an aggressive tone about it.

Most of the overarching point wasn't even directed at you, you just happened to jump in and comment on a point I was making to someone else.

I showed all I needed to show to prove my point.