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Phil in Absentia
11-18-2014, 08:03 PM
After watching Martin St-Louis play his former teammates in Tampa Bay for the first time since the March trade that sent him to the New York Rangers for Ryan Callahan, and two draft picks, Iím pretty confident in saying this:

St-Louis made a huge mistake.

Yes, itís only one game, but the Lightningís thorough 5-1 pounding of the Blueshirts Monday was a demonstration of (a) all the things that make Tampa such a favorite of pundits this off-season, and (b) many of the things that make some of us question the Rangers as a serious Stanley Cup contender.


But itís more than just the presence of Stamkos that makes St-Louisí decision to leave Tampa Bay a regrettable one. The Rangers have had some serious injuries to deal with this season (including key cogs Derek Stepan and Ryan McDonagh), but even with those players in the lineup, the Lightning are deeper at forward and on defense and have more blossoming young talent (including Jonathan Drouin, Victor Hedman, Tyler Johnson and Nikita Kucherov, among others) than the Blueshirts. And with goalie Ben Bishop proving his superb 2013-14 campaign was no fluke, you canít even argue the Rangers have a significant advantage in net anymore Ė at least, not when star Henrik Lundqvist is struggling to find his consistency so far this year.


... right now, the fact is St-Louis left a team that looks to be a force with which to reckon for many years to come for a team whose leading scorer, Rick Nash, will be 31 years old next summer and whose backbone between the pipes will be 33 in March. At 39 years old, he wants to win now, but does anyone see the Rangers as a serious threat to win the Eastern Conference again this year? At this stage, thereís no guarantee theyíll even be in the post-season.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/when-he-left-the-lightning-for-the-rangers-martin-st-louis-made-a-huge-mistake/

--

I can't stand Proteau as a person, and I disagree with him on almost nearly every topic he writes on (especially his incessant soap-boxing about fighting in the NHL), but it's an interesting take, and something we've probably never thought about from the perspective of St. Louis, as opposed to who won or lost the trade, or if the price the Rangers paid was too high.

If you're judging this today, whether that's fair or not, I find it hard to disagree with him based on the play of both clubs this season.

NYRangers92
11-18-2014, 08:22 PM
Mid-November doesnt strike me as the best time to write an article like this. Its not like we were playing at a barn-burning pace at this point last year (9-9 through 18). I'd revisit this like, next Summer, though.

I mean MSL said he wanted to "win now" and came within 3 games of doing just that...and theres absolutely no guarantee yet the Lightning will come close to that this season

Phil in Absentia
11-18-2014, 08:25 PM
Mid-November doesnt strike me as the best time to write an article like this.

It's Proteau, so the timing couldn't be more perfect, considering the source. Capitalizing on recent shocks is what he does best.

Jules
11-18-2014, 09:12 PM
A big part of St. Louis departure was a personal reason, which was never really cleared up. I don't think he necessarily left the Lightning thinking he had a better shot at a title here in New York.

Bretzky
11-18-2014, 09:42 PM
Proteau is a moron.

Sure, this can be revisited in a year or two, depending on how the Rangers, MSL, and Tampa do.

But now?

The Lightning impress me as much as the Islanders. First place in November!!! STANLEY CUP CHAMPS!!!

The Lightning, as well as the Islanders have no clue what it takes to get to the SCF, let alone win. The Isles should try winning a playoff series since 1993, and the Lightning have a good roster on paper, but so did the San Jose Sharks the last 10 years. Two wildly unproven teams that the "pundits" will pop wood for until they choke.

The Rangers made a mistake not re-signing Stralman, and thinking Dan Boyle had enough left offensively (or enough left, period) to make up for losing Stralman's defense + possession game. Dan Boyle sucks. He is done. We made a huge mistake choosing Boyle over Stralman.

Even paying Stralman 5M for the next 5 years would've been better than D. Boyle at 4.5 for 2 years.

Dan Boyle has nothing left in the tank, and it's November, and he's played...three games. You think this guy is going to help us through multiple grueling playoff rounds?


That's the big mistake between these two teams. MSL was a few OT posts away from winning The Cup. To say he made a mistake because of one November loss to Tampa, and Tampa's hot start is absolutely laughable. Proteau belongs on HFBoards.


The Rangers are the much more proven team. When McDonagh is healthy, we're as good as any team in the East over 7 games. We have some holes to fill / needs to address, because we messed up with D.Boyle/Stralman, and Brian Boyle; even Dorsett + Carcillo. Tanner Glass does nothing to help this team win games. I understand this supposed "role" carved out for him, but he's not even filling that. If you're carrying a guy who has ZERO offensive ability, and can't even control simple passes enough to keep a 4th-line cycle alive, you at least expect him to be an impact on every shift with hitting or something. He doesn't do this. Most shifts he can't even catch up to the play to make a hit. He'll make about one big hit per game. That's not enough. We're carrying dead space. We're basically playing every other team 11 forwards vs their 12. Say what you want about it being a fourth line spot, but it hurts us. It absolutely does. Carcillo / Dorsett "protected" guys just as much and could actually skate and play.

However, I believe that we can address these needs by the deadline, and will again be EC contenders, while Tampa and NYI will be first or second-round exits at absolute best. They simply don't understand what it takes.

NYRangers92
11-18-2014, 09:48 PM
so what you're saying is a team that has guys on it that played in the Conference final in 2011 (Stamkos, Brewer, Hedman), guys on it that played for perennial playoff contenders for Detroit and Dallas and San Jose and New York and Philly (Filppula, Morrow, Nabokov, Callahan, Carle), multiple players who were just in the Final not even 6 months ago (Boyle, Stralman) dont understand what it takes?

Not saying I think theyll go far, I just find the crux of your argument flawed when half the team has been deep in the playoffs before

Pete
11-18-2014, 09:54 PM
Mid-November doesnt strike me as the best time to write an article like this. Its not like we were playing at a barn-burning pace at this point last year (9-9 through 18). I'd revisit this like, next Summer, though.

I mean MSL said he wanted to "win now" and came within 3 games of doing just that...and theres absolutely no guarantee yet the Lightning will come close to that this season

If you're not in a playoff spot by Thanksgiving, it's extremely hard ot get into one. You can't start every year like shit thinking that because you started last year like shit, it's OK.

Frankly, I think it was a bigger mistake for us to trade for MSL (yes, in hindsight, which is the ONLY way trades can be measured). I'm not saying moving Cally was a mistake, but we added a guy who immediately played down to a 60 point level (and looks more and more like a product of his linemates and less like the little engine that could every day), and we forfeited picks to do it.

If we win the Cup, we win the trade. We didn't win the Cup so right now, we're #Losing.

Mike
11-18-2014, 10:09 PM
A big part of St. Louis departure was a personal reason, which was never really cleared up. I don't think he necessarily left the Lightning thinking he had a better shot at a title here in New York.

How so? His family lives in CT, and he lived in Fla. It's as evident as it gets. Guy has a cup, and has exceeded everyone's expectations 10 fold. He went from "he'll never make it" to first ballot hof'er. Proteau is a moron.

Pete
11-18-2014, 10:51 PM
How so? His family lives in CT, and he lived in Fla. It's as evident as it gets. Guy has a cup, and has exceeded everyone's expectations 10 fold. He went from "he'll never make it" to first ballot hof'er. Proteau is a moron.

Why is he a moron? Article seems spot on to me.

Mike
11-18-2014, 10:55 PM
Why is he a moron? Article seems spot on to me.

Because St. Louis' request to come here wasn't solely about what his expectations were for the Rangers to win a cup, nor what Tampa's future would entail. He's making it seem like Marty ran out of Tampa because he didn't think they were going anywhere, and the Rangers were on the fast track to a cup. He's not chasing a title, he wants to be with his wife and 3 boys.

Pete
11-18-2014, 10:57 PM
Because St. Louis' request to come here wasn't solely about what his expectations were for the Rangers to win a cup, nor what Tampa's future would entail.

Right. His request was because he took getting left off team Canada personally and never forgave Yzerman. He was essentially a crybaby.

Mike
11-18-2014, 11:01 PM
Right. His request was because he took getting left off team Canada personally and never forgave Yzerman. He was essentially a crybaby.

He was upset about it. That's not the reason why he wanted to come here.

Dunny
11-18-2014, 11:06 PM
We're becoming the Phillies of hockey.

Pete
11-18-2014, 11:07 PM
He was upset about it. That's not the reason why he wanted to come here.

He wanted out of TB and this was a convenient destination.

Mike
11-18-2014, 11:11 PM
He wanted out of TB and this was a convenient destination.

He wanted to leave the year before.

G1000
11-18-2014, 11:12 PM
If we wallop the Bolts in STL in two weeks, will he write the converse article about how Ryan Callahan should have signed here when he had the chance?

Kneejerk reaction to a mid-November game. Classic yellow journalism.

Bugg
11-18-2014, 11:26 PM
Proteau is a moron.

Sure, this can be revisited in a year or two, depending on how the Rangers, MSL, and Tampa do.

But now?

The Lightning impress me as much as the Islanders. First place in November!!! STANLEY CUP CHAMPS!!!

The Lightning, as well as the Islanders have no clue what it takes to get to the SCF, let alone win. The Isles should try winning a playoff series since 1993, and the Lightning have a good roster on paper, but so did the San Jose Sharks the last 10 years. Two wildly unproven teams that the "pundits" will pop wood for until they choke.

The Rangers made a mistake not re-signing Stralman, and thinking Dan Boyle had enough left offensively (or enough left, period) to make up for losing Stralman's defense + possession game. Dan Boyle sucks. He is done. We made a huge mistake choosing Boyle over Stralman.

Even paying Stralman 5M for the next 5 years would've been better than D. Boyle at 4.5 for 2 years.

Dan Boyle has nothing left in the tank, and it's November, and he's played...three games. You think this guy is going to help us through multiple grueling playoff rounds?


That's the big mistake between these two teams. MSL was a few OT posts away from winning The Cup. To say he made a mistake because of one November loss to Tampa, and Tampa's hot start is absolutely laughable. Proteau belongs on HFBoards.


The Rangers are the much more proven team. When McDonagh is healthy, we're as good as any team in the East over 7 games. We have some holes to fill / needs to address, because we messed up with D.Boyle/Stralman, and Brian Boyle; even Dorsett + Carcillo. Tanner Glass does nothing to help this team win games. I understand this supposed "role" carved out for him, but he's not even filling that. If you're carrying a guy who has ZERO offensive ability, and can't even control simple passes enough to keep a 4th-line cycle alive, you at least expect him to be an impact on every shift with hitting or something. He doesn't do this. Most shifts he can't even catch up to the play to make a hit. He'll make about one big hit per game. That's not enough. We're carrying dead space. We're basically playing every other team 11 forwards vs their 12. Say what you want about it being a fourth line spot, but it hurts us. It absolutely does. Carcillo / Dorsett "protected" guys just as much and could actually skate and play.

However, I believe that we can address these needs by the deadline, and will again be EC contenders, while Tampa and NYI will be first or second-round exits at absolute best. They simply don't understand what it takes.

Small sample and all that. But Stralman, what ever the cap hit, looked like the puck-moving offensive-minded D guy the Rangers signed Boyle to be. And Boyle looks every day of his 37 years.

But again it doesn't preclude getting it right. The Rangers are .500 despite playing like total crap spare the Pens game last week.

At a loss how MSL is the bad guy for being pissed his Gm did not respect him and wanting to sleep in his own with his wife and kids in Connecticut. And how Callahan is a great hero for taking less money from the bolts he could've had in March from the Rangers. Callahan is a good player, but he is not nearly the talent MSL is and soon he will again be hurt like he always is.

As an aside, a loss why sportswriters never question salary caps.If media had drafts and salary caps for talent suspect they would feel quite differently. Instead they cheer for the owners to get more the players to get less. Not the players ' fault the NHL expanded to Phoenix. "Cost certainty" was a lie.

Phil in Absentia
11-18-2014, 11:58 PM
I think most of you are missing the point. This article, as I noted in the OP, isn't about our take on the trade, or our take on MSL as a person, or anything of the sort. It's about Marty's choice to leave, and whether or not it was actually a good one or not.

That, about the article itself, is what makes it so compelling.

Travis Bickle
11-19-2014, 12:17 AM
If the primary reason he wanted out of Tampa Bay was to live closer to his family then he made the right decision.

E_Lewis4
11-19-2014, 01:11 AM
I dont have any doubt that St.Louis thinks he made the wrong decision. I respect the idea of the article. However instead of it being a rational discussion, it appears to be another reaction to losing the game. With the "At this stage, there’s no guarantee they’ll even be in the post-season." Give me a freaking break!

He's talking like we're in last place of the conference and cant buy a win. Consistency is the problem thus far. With Boyle, Step, McD going down. It doesn't surprise me that we aren't. Maybe its because I'm a fan, but I don't see how this team can't compete for the EC Championship again. Especially for the next two years of St.Louis's contract.

To make it seem like we don't have young guys playing well (Step, Hags, Kreider) is also a joke. Sure TB has lined themselves in a great position for the next few years. But I think its a little bit of an over reaction. He makes it seem like NYR is a sinking ship.

TwoMinutesForNothing
11-19-2014, 01:39 AM
He went to the Cup Finals with us. Why is that being dismissed when it is completely relevant here? Stupid article, end of story.

Bretzky
11-19-2014, 01:47 AM
Yeh, I'm sure MSL really thinks he made the wrong decision because we lost a regular season game in November...

He could've been in the winning end of that regular season November game!!!

Instead he was forced to play hockey into June and is still on a better team!

He totally could've had a longer summer if he stayed in Tampa. He must be kicking himself.

momentum
11-19-2014, 05:41 AM
He went to the Cup Finals with us. Why is that being dismissed when it is completely relevant here? Stupid article, end of story.

THIS, this article is stupid on so many levels.

Pete
11-19-2014, 07:10 AM
He wanted to leave the year before.

He had chances to leave. He didn't.

Pete
11-19-2014, 07:20 AM
THIS, this article is stupid on so many levels.


Yeh, I'm sure MSL really thinks he made the wrong decision because we lost a regular season game in November...

He could've been in the winning end of that regular season November game!!!

Instead he was forced to play hockey into June and is still on a better team!

He totally could've had a longer summer if he stayed in Tampa. He must be kicking himself.


He went to the Cup Finals with us. Why is that being dismissed when it is completely relevant here? Stupid article, end of story.

First of all, articles that you guys don't agree with aren't stupid. They are just articles you don't agree with.

Secondly, if anyone bothered to read the article or the OP, they wouldn't say "losing a regular season game in November"...Proteau clearly states the game is a microcosm of the state of both teams. And I don't know how anyone can say it wasn't. This team has trended down this year, Tampa has trended up.

Key word: trending.

They just kicked our ass without their top stud defenseman, so we can't really say "Oh, we didn't have McD."

That team had 2 Calder candidates on it, a Vezina caliber goalie, and the best pure goal scorer in the NHL.

No, Proteau isn't saying our team sucks. He's saying that team will be better, longer, and right now that's very hard to disagree with.

Going to the finals isn't winning a Cup, I think the players would agree. Over the next 2 years Tampa will probably have a better team than we will when you look at both rosters and their cap.

The only thing the article misses on is that when MSL asked to be traded here, we had 3 big pieces who have since left - Boyle, Stralman and Pouliot. 2 of them are helping Tampa right now.

lefty9
11-19-2014, 07:36 AM
If you're not in a playoff spot by Thanksgiving, it's extremely hard ot get into one. You can't start every year like shit thinking that because you started last year like shit, it's OK.

Frankly, I think it was a bigger mistake for us to trade for MSL (yes, in hindsight, which is the ONLY way trades can be measured). I'm not saying moving Cally was a mistake, but we added a guy who immediately played down to a 60 point level (and looks more and more like a product of his linemates and less like the little engine that could every day), and we forfeited picks to do it.

If we win the Cup, we win the trade. We didn't win the Cup so right now, we're #Losing.
This is how I felt when we made this trade, This is pretty much spot on

Mike
11-19-2014, 07:50 AM
I think most of you are missing the point. This article, as I noted in the OP, isn't about our take on the trade, or our take on MSL as a person, or anything of the sort. It's about Marty's choice to leave, and whether or not it was actually a good one or not.

That, about the article itself, is what makes it so compelling.
Does Martin St. Louis think he made the wrong the decision?
Does he think losing to his former team 5-1 in November is making him regret anything?
Does he really care what the TB Lightning do?

Mike
11-19-2014, 07:52 AM
He had chances to leave. He didn't.

Yes, but the Ranger window wasn't open

Pete
11-19-2014, 08:00 AM
Does he think losing to his former team 5-1 in November is making him regret anything? Clearly not what article suggests.


Yes, but the Ranger window wasn't openAs a UFA?

It's always open.

fletch
11-19-2014, 08:06 AM
I think most of you are missing the point. This article, as I noted in the OP, isn't about our take on the trade, or our take on MSL as a person, or anything of the sort. It's about Marty's choice to leave, and whether or not it was actually a good one or not.

That, about the article itself, is what makes it so compelling.

The article has to focus on the relative performance of the teams this year (20 regular season games).... because if it was based on playoff results last year MSL absolutely made the right choice (unless MSL found a way to the Kings instead). The argument has to be that the Lightning have a better chance to win a Cup than the Rangers going forward.... and we'll see about that. Once the Rangers get healthy we'll have a much better read on this team.

And as others have suggested, he wanted out of Tampa Bay for reasons unrelated to how the team was performing on the ice. So even if the Lightning had won a couple of Stanley Cups in a row, he may still have wanted out. Athletes don't just factor in the odds of winning a Cup.

Who knows how Tampa would have constructed the roster differently if MSL stayed? Who knows how a Tampa team with MSL and a different roster would be performing this year?

The article is an interesting read, but is solely based on conjecture from incomplete evidence (20 games), hindsight, and what ifs.

Valriera
11-19-2014, 08:28 AM
This is a silly article. St. Louis switched teams at the deadline, and the team he switched onto came three OT games within winning the Stanley Cup. We didn't trade Cally for prospects, or for our future, we traded Cally for the chance to win a Stanley Cup last year, and we got just that.

In fact, the whole team could shit bed this year and the trade would have still been worth it. St. Louis was an important part of that run, and Cup or not, it was well worth it. You can't win every year. I'll take a close second place to a team that was far superior to us to begin with. The Lightning aren't beating whoever comes out of the west either.

Mike
11-19-2014, 08:29 AM
Clearly not what article suggests.

As a UFA?

It's always open.

The writer uses it. You also cherry picked my post. You destroy articles all the time. This article is irrelevant as they come. Why? Because Martin St. Louis doesn't give a fuck about the TB Lightening. Wanna write an article about how TB is on a better track than NY? Fine, I agree, but MSL has no regrets. It's just a convenient way for the author to throw it in an article that no one would care about if it was strictly a debate about the future of both clubs.

So Nashty
11-19-2014, 08:58 AM
He wanted out of TB and this was a convenient destination.

Which is why I hated the trade to begin with. I have no doubt he likes NY but behind all of his words it was clear he just wanted a nice retirement home. We lost this trade any way you look at it. Got older, didn't win a cup (albeit still remains to be seen, but not looking good), lost a good roster player for nothing. I said it was short sighted when it was made and we are seeing evidence of this now. I would have been happier with picks for Callahan.

Pete
11-19-2014, 09:22 AM
The writer uses it. You also cherry picked my post. You destroy articles all the time. This article is irrelevant as they come. Why? Because Martin St. Louis doesn't give a fuck about the TB Lightening. Wanna write an article about how TB is on a better track than NY? Fine, I agree, but MSL has no regrets. It's just a convenient way for the author to throw it in an article that no one would care about if it was strictly a debate about the future of both clubs.

The writer used the game as a microcosm of the state of both teams. He never suggests that one game would make MSL feel a certain way, which is what you're inferring.

Pete
11-19-2014, 09:25 AM
This is a silly article. St. Louis switched teams at the deadline, and the team he switched onto came three OT games within winning the Stanley Cup. We didn't trade Cally for prospects, or for our future, we traded Cally for the chance to win a Stanley Cup last year, and we got just that.

In fact, the whole team could shit bed this year and the trade would have still been worth it. St. Louis was an important part of that run, and Cup or not, it was well worth it. You can't win every year. I'll take a close second place to a team that was far superior to us to begin with. The Lightning aren't beating whoever comes out of the west either.

The article has nothing to do with why we traded Cally. It has to do with why MSL wanted to leave TB for NY.

How can you call it silly when you're missing the main point?

AmericanJesus
11-19-2014, 09:42 AM
The problem with the article is that it's making an assertion (St. Louis made a huge mistake leaving Tampa for NY) without knowing his goals in demanding the trade where he only listed one team as a destination. The author assumes that the only thing St. Louis cares about is winning another Stanley Cup before he retires. That's the underlying premise of the entire article. However, given that his career could be over at any point, the best choice he could have made would be a demand for a trade to LA, Chicago, Anaheim or maybe Pittsburgh if that was the case. The choice of the Rangers, as has been widely speculated, likely was based on the location of his family in Connecticut, not a desire for the absolute best chance to win another Cup.

The article also ignores the fact that the trade itself and then Callahan re-signing probably was a big reason that Boyle and Stralman are now there. And Callahan, Boyle and Stralman are the players that add a wealth of playoff experience to a young team. Without those guys, but with St. Louis, the team is much as it has been with no clear indication of being on the cusp of anything. And even with those moves, they are still just a new play thing of the media. Lets see them win a round or two in the playoffs before we anoint them a dynasty the way the article tries to.

I am Scags
11-19-2014, 09:53 AM
The author makes all solid points about the directions both teams are headed in 'currently' but that's where it ends. We all know that St. Louis's departure from TB was almost soley based around the the personal gripe that he and Yzerman had and his desires to be traded closer to his home. It was not about Marty wanting to be traded to a contender in the Rangers last March.

As baby like as Marty may have come off, this article itself sort comes off as sour grapes as well. Last Spring the Tampa Bay lightning and Callahan were embarrassed in a sweep by Montreal, while Marty and the Rangers went on an improbable run to the finals. While he has the one cup from 11 years ago, at 38 why would Marty really look back now and feel regret about the team that he left especially considereing what a special and emotional spring he had with the run and the sad death of his mother?

Ok so the Lightning are pretty good. They have a solid roster that could end up winning that Atlantic division when all is said and done, but what is happening now guarantees them nothing. Just as the Rangers mediocre play right now doesn't guarantee them failure either. I seem to remember these Rangers at this same spot that they are now this time last season, hovering around .500 with a slew of questions. Maybe they will ascend this year like last, or maybe they won't. But to sit here and tell us that St. Louis made a mistake because of the current directions of both teams is complete hogwash and an author either looking for attention or just playing homer and not seeing the full scope of the situation.

Mike
11-19-2014, 09:59 AM
The writer used the game as a microcosm the state of both teams. He never suggests that one game would make MSL feel a certain way, which is what you're inferring.

It's not what I'm referring. Forget the game. The article title suggests MSL made a mistake leaving, and implies he regrets it. I'm saying MSL doesn't give a fuck, which he doesn't.

Pete
11-19-2014, 10:01 AM
It's not what I'm referring. Forget the game. The article title suggests MSL made a mistake leaving, and implies he regrets it. I'm saying MSL doesn't give a fuck, which he doesn't.

Well, i don't think anyone but MSL himself knows for sure. He'd certainly never admit it right now.

Mike
11-19-2014, 10:41 AM
Well, i don't think anyone but MSL himself knows for sure. He'd certainly never admit it right now.

He's with his wife, and 3 kids. When you're about to be a father, let me know how you feel when you're at work for 1 day, and how much you miss your kid. He went to the finals last year. No regrets. TB hasn't done anything yet. No regrets. I saw him 12 hours after they lost the cup. Being with your kid at a rink to watch him play > everything else. I'm not dismissing his competitive juices after just losing the cup. I'm pointing out that there are more important things in people's lives.

Pete
11-19-2014, 10:42 AM
He's with his wife, and 3 kids. When you're about to be a father, let me know how you feel when you're at work for 1 day, and how much you miss your kid. He went to the finals last year. No regrets. TB hasn't done anything yet. No regrets. I saw him 12 hours after they lost the cup. Being with your kid at a rink to watch him play > everything else. I'm not dismissing his competitive juices after just losing the cup. I'm pointing out that there are more important things in people's lives.

So like I said, no one knows for sure if he thinks he made the right decision...

Parsley
11-19-2014, 11:13 AM
Let me guess this guys next article....

"Lundqvist made mistake not waiting a year to sign with Islanders".....:rolleyes:

AmericanJesus
11-19-2014, 11:15 AM
So like I said, no one knows for sure if he thinks he made the right decision...

Except that's exactly what Proteau is saying and why the article is bullshit. The article should be, "If I, Proteau, was a hockey superstar at the end of my career and played for the Tampa Bay Lightning but demanded a trade to the New York Rangers at the trade deadline last year, I would now think I had made a mistake using hindsight".

Mike
11-19-2014, 11:27 AM
It just makes 0 sense for a guy to have regrets about leaving a team based on the first 18 games of the following season when he just came off a scf appearance with the team he was traded too. Write this article if these 2 meet in the ecf, and tge Rangers lose, not in November. Afwiw, MSL still wouldn't have regrets. Yeah, I just got to spend the last 2 years of my life playing with the New York Rangers, living 25 minutes from the practice rink with my wife and 3 boys, and made the scf, and ecf in back to back years, but I wish I was on Tampa right now.

Bugg
11-19-2014, 11:37 AM
So like I said, no one knows for sure if he thinks he made the right decision...NO; we can glean some basic facts that point to MSL making the right decision for himself. We do know he wanted to be in his house with his wife and kids(which he now does have), and he felt that Yzerman had treated him badly.And his new team made a run to the Finals.

And as Mikey notes, your kids are only young for so long. The difference between mostly waking up every day in the same house with them as opposed to being 1300 miles way every day is not a small thing at all.

And again, while the Rangers have played poorly they are still hovering at .500 and it's only November. Was unaware anyone gets awarded a Stanley Cup before Thanksgiving.

In short the author is a major douchebag.

Keirik
11-19-2014, 12:10 PM
I still just don't get how anyone can say MSL made a mistake when he went to the finals in the same year as the trade. How is that a mistake now? From a TRADE standpoint, MSL made the right decision at the time. No one could have foreseen the Lightning signing the players they did in the offseason, nor would they 100% have done that and obtained Callahan if they kept MSL.

3 games within winning a cup > being a swell team in November.

Pete
11-19-2014, 12:15 PM
The Rangers didn't win the Cup. So, how close they were is irrelevant.

We all know this team had to have everything go right to get where they got, and they needed a major emotional boost from MSL to do it. Everyone looks at least year and somehow thinks we were dominant, but that was hardly the case. Forget the fact that we got every favorable matchup possible — We needed a miracle to beat Pitt, Montreal's starting goalie was injured (imagine those roles reversed...) and yea, we hung with the Kings but ultimately lost in 5. There is a fine line between winning and losing, but 4 games to 1 is a canyon. Teams don't get lucky 4 times in 7 games.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as happy as anyone that they got as far as they did, but I'm under no illusions that they were incredibly fortunate to do so. And I don't really care that they Kings went 7 games in 3 rounds and almost lost to San Jose...I'm talking about this team.

I, for one, would not want MSL resigned at this time, those dollars are better spent elsewhere.

Keirik
11-19-2014, 12:19 PM
The Rangers didn't win the Cup. So, how close they were is irrelevant.

We all know this team had to have everything go right to get where they got, and they needed a major emotional boost from MSL to do it. Everyone looks at least year and somehow thinks we were dominant, but that was hardly the case. Forget the fact that we got every favorable matchup possible — We needed a miracle to beat Pitt, Montreal's starting goalie was injured (imagine those roles reversed...) and yea, we hung with the Kings but ultimately lost in 5. There is a fine line between winning and losing, but 4 games to 1 is a canyon. Teams don't get lucky 4 times in 7 games.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as happy as anyone that they got as far as they did, but I'm under no illusions that they were incredibly fortunate to do so. And I don't really care that they Kings went 7 games in 3 rounds and almost lost to San Jose...I'm talking about this team.

I, for one, would not want MSL resigned at this time, those dollars are better spent elsewhere.
If the Rangers not winning the cup is irrelevant, then so is this entire article because last I checked, the Lightning didn't either and got swept out of the playoffs without MSL.

Puck Head
11-19-2014, 12:19 PM
I would point out that if MSL was 10 years younger, then moving away from that Tampa team would be a huge mistake.
Chalk full of young talent, and seem to be surrounding it with some character vets still under 30. Their future looks bright.

But in a 2-3 year window, from his perspective, the Rangers must have looked a tad closer to the cup come trade deadline.

Mike
11-19-2014, 12:25 PM
The Rangers didn't win the Cup. So, how close they were is irrelevant.

We all know this team had to have everything go right to get where they got, and they needed a major emotional boost from MSL to do it. Everyone looks at least year and somehow thinks we were dominant, but that was hardly the case. Forget the fact that we got every favorable matchup possible — We needed a miracle to beat Pitt, Montreal's starting goalie was injured (imagine those roles reversed...) and yea, we hung with the Kings but ultimately lost in 5. There is a fine line between winning and losing, but 4 games to 1 is a canyon. Teams don't get lucky 4 times in 7 games.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as happy as anyone that they got as far as they did, but I'm under no illusions that they were incredibly fortunate to do so. And I don't really care that they Kings went 7 games in 3 rounds and almost lost to San Jose...I'm talking about this team.

I, for one, would not want MSL resigned at this time, those dollars are better spent elsewhere.

Right, I agree. Still has nothing to do with MSL's regrets of leaving TB.

I am Scags
11-19-2014, 03:44 PM
I'm actually a little surprised this article came from a 'neutral' source in the Hockey News. I hate to come off as some sort of NY elistist, but this is normally the kind of hokey and homer driven writing you will get from local papers or in local sports talk radio, especially in Florida. I'm down there all the time and in all the sports (especially football)they go out of their way to appease or almost write down to their homer fanbases.

Listen I get it, Tampa fans have every right to hate on or boo MSL with the way he left. Tiki Barber was one of the best running backs the NY Giants have ever had and yet most Giants fans loathe the guy. It happens.
But if I'm Marty I just brush it off. You gave those fans maybe the most thrilling moment they will ever have witnessed. You helped them win a cup a few days later. You gave them over a decade of enjoyment and entertainment. He has absolutely nothing to be upset about or regretful by leaving there.

AmericanJesus
11-19-2014, 03:55 PM
The Rangers didn't win the Cup. So, how close they were is irrelevant.

We all know this team had to have everything go right to get where they got, and they needed a major emotional boost from MSL to do it. Everyone looks at least year and somehow thinks we were dominant, but that was hardly the case. Forget the fact that we got every favorable matchup possible — We needed a miracle to beat Pitt, Montreal's starting goalie was injured (imagine those roles reversed...) and yea, we hung with the Kings but ultimately lost in 5. There is a fine line between winning and losing, but 4 games to 1 is a canyon. Teams don't get lucky 4 times in 7 games.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as happy as anyone that they got as far as they did, but I'm under no illusions that they were incredibly fortunate to do so. And I don't really care that they Kings went 7 games in 3 rounds and almost lost to San Jose...I'm talking about this team.

I, for one, would not want MSL resigned at this time, those dollars are better spent elsewhere.

Assuming we're talking about $3M or so with bonuses stretching it up to like $5M, where would that be better spent? Even with a slow start, he's on a 65ish point pace. Not sure where you're going to get that production from.

Pete
11-19-2014, 04:02 PM
Assuming we're talking about $3M or so with bonuses stretching it up to like $5M, where would that be better spent? Even with a slow start, he's on a 65ish point pace. Not sure where you're going to get that production from.

Forget production, it's already spent on Stepan.

AmericanJesus
11-19-2014, 04:07 PM
Forget production, it's already spent on Stepan.

Well, if we're going to say replace MSL and Staal with kids to stay under the cap, we're going to be a team on the decline. Fire sale after the season ends?

Pete
11-19-2014, 04:27 PM
Well, if we're going to say replace MSL and Staal with kids to stay under the cap, we're going to be a team on the decline. Fire sale after the season ends?

If they keep playing this way, at the deadline, for sure.

Slobberknocker
11-19-2014, 05:41 PM
this article is really hard to comment on without going down the road on a state of the union address of the team.

personally for reasons stated in this thread i dont think marty regrets the move one bit.

also without marty there's no way, NO WAY we reach the finals last year. (not to impugn hanks impact)

i disagree with the irrelevent comment that we didn't win the cup. I also strongly disagree with the ideas that we made the finals were a fluke.

this team showed a ton of heart throughout and came back down 3-1 to the penguins (last time i looked they were not a div 3 school)

they were quite competitive in the finals as well. sure we lost in five but we surely could have won in 5 as well.

i'll take seriously any argument however that states moving forward we could well struggle (trading draft picks, draft misses, aging team etc)

Bretzky
11-19-2014, 05:47 PM
First of all, articles that you guys don't agree with aren't stupid. They are just articles you don't agree with.

Secondly, if anyone bothered to read the article or the OP, they wouldn't say "losing a regular season game in November"...Proteau clearly states the game is a microcosm of the state of both teams. And I don't know how anyone can say it wasn't. This team has trended down this year, Tampa has trended up.

Key word: trending.

They just kicked our ass without their top stud defenseman, so we can't really say "Oh, we didn't have McD."

That team had 2 Calder candidates on it, a Vezina caliber goalie, and the best pure goal scorer in the NHL.

No, Proteau isn't saying our team sucks. He's saying that team will be better, longer, and right now that's very hard to disagree with.

Going to the finals isn't winning a Cup, I think the players would agree. Over the next 2 years Tampa will probably have a better team than we will when you look at both rosters and their cap.

The only thing the article misses on is that when MSL asked to be traded here, we had 3 big pieces who have since left - Boyle, Stralman and Pouliot. 2 of them are helping Tampa right now.

Key word: trending?

Sorry, but I think that labeling a teams start through 15 games isn't an accurate portrayal of a "trend."

I wouldn't use such a small sample size to say any team is "trending" in any direction.

Tampa had a hot start. Will their second line center continue to lead the team in points while Callahan puts up a point per game?

The Rangers had a slow start, due largely in part to injuries to their top center, top defender, and multiple top-6 defenders. It's also due to the fact that we made a mistake choosing D.Boyle over Stralman, and not addressing the losses of Boyle, Pouliot, or even Dorsett/Carcillo. Can we fix some of those issues before the deadline? Perhaps. We'll have to wait and see, but I don't put much stock into "trends" 18 games into the season.

Key word: November.

Pete
11-19-2014, 06:02 PM
this article is really hard to comment on without going down the road on a state of the union address of the team.

personally for reasons stated in this thread i dont think marty regrets the move one bit.

also without marty there's no way, NO WAY we reach the finals last year. (not to impugn hanks impact)

i disagree with the irrelevent comment that we didn't win the cup. I also strongly disagree with the ideas that we made the finals were a fluke.

this team showed a ton of heart throughout and came back down 3-1 to the penguins (last time i looked they were not a div 3 school)

they were quite competitive in the finals as well. sure we lost in five but we surely could have won in 5 as well.

i'll take seriously any argument however that states moving forward we could well struggle (trading draft picks, draft misses, aging team etc)
Firstly, it's not irrelevant that we didn't win the Cup. If we win the Cup, we win the trade. The Cup buys you a lot of time and leeway. They didn't win it, so they aren't granted to time or the leeway to say "It was all worth it."

Secondly, no one said getting the the finals was a fluke. But simply put, we had the more favorable matchups, we had an emotional jumpstart, opposing teams had injuries to key players, and we didn't get the calls or the breaks in the finals.

Pete
11-19-2014, 06:04 PM
Key word: trending?

Sorry, but I think that labeling a teams start through 15 games isn't an accurate portrayal of a "trend."

I wouldn't use such a small sample size to say any team is "trending" in any direction.

Tampa had a hot start. Will their second line center continue to lead the team in points while Callahan puts up a point per game?

The Rangers had a slow start, due largely in part to injuries to their top center, top defender, and multiple top-6 defenders. It's also due to the fact that we made a mistake choosing D.Boyle over Stralman, and not addressing the losses of Boyle, Pouliot, or even Dorsett/Carcillo. Can we fix some of those issues before the deadline? Perhaps. We'll have to wait and see, but I don't put much stock into "trends" 18 games into the season.

Key word: November.

If you think trending means 15 games, I don't know what to tell you because you're clearly not reading posts.


....

No, Proteau isn't saying our team sucks. He's saying that team will be better, longer, and right now that's very hard to disagree with...

.....Over the next 2 years Tampa will probably have a better team than we will when you look at both rosters and their cap.

CreaseCrusader91
11-19-2014, 06:11 PM
A rebuttal, but here's the part that irons out the whole MSL NY thing and motivation behind it.


St. Louis is from Quebec. He went to school at Vermont. His wife is from Greenwich, Conn. where the family lives in the offseason and St. Louis runs a summer hockey camp at the Twin Rinks in Stamford, Conn. Madison Square Garden is about 31.7 miles from Greenwich and 45 minutes on Metro North.

Not only did St. Louis likely want to live in one location to be with his entire family year-round, but Iím sure his wife also had some impact on his decision making because it is his wife and Iím going to assume that she has some say in the decisions St. Louis makes. Is*Friday Night Lights not available in Canada? Eric and Tammy Taylor could teach you a few valuable life lessons.

But itís more than just the presence of Stamkos that makes St-Louisí decision to leave Tampa Bay a regrettable one.

Again, Iím sure 39-year-old St. Louis, who has a wife and kids and whose home is about 31.7 miles from the Garden, really took into account the idea of playing hockey with a 24-year-old when weighing his familyís own future.



http://keefetothecity.com/martin-st-louis-huge-mistake/

Some other good points made as well.

Bretzky
11-19-2014, 06:11 PM
Oh, so he's basing it just on their paper roster!

Even better.

I find it quite easy to disagree with then, since the Rangers have the same young core they just went to the SCF with, while Tampa has had a hot start after getting swept (and Bishop's injury is apparently irrelevant since injuries to our 1C, 1D, and two other top-6 D were apparently ignored in this assessment.)

I don't see Tampa being better than the Rangers now or in the future. They have a nice team on paper but they've proven absolutely nothing as far as being a real playoff contender. The San Jose Sharks say hello. A nice team on paper doesn't win you anything.

Pete
11-19-2014, 06:45 PM
Oh, so he's basing it just on their paper roster!

Even better.

I find it quite easy to disagree with then, since the Rangers have the same young core they just went to the SCF with, while Tampa has had a hot start after getting swept (and Bishop's injury is apparently irrelevant since injuries to our 1C, 1D, and two other top-6 D were apparently ignored in this assessment.)

I don't see Tampa being better than the Rangers now or in the future. They have a nice team on paper but they've proven absolutely nothing as far as being a real playoff contender. The San Jose Sharks say hello. A nice team on paper doesn't win you anything.

Well reality is they are better than us right now. Results don't lie.

So Nashty
11-19-2014, 06:49 PM
Well reality is they are better than us right now. Results don't lie.

also they pretty much dominated us on ice.. so there's that as well

momentum
11-19-2014, 07:34 PM
also they pretty much dominated us on ice.. so there's that as well

In the worst night of hockey Rangers have produced all year, it wasn't like they were playing their hearts out trying to win, they stunk up the place and Tampa took advantage of it. The next game the result might be the opposite for all we know. There is NO CONCLUSION whatsoever that can be had at game 18 of the season or between these team who is better in the end. Did anyone think the Rangers were going to the cup final at game 18 last year? No...but it happened...so we can't accurately predict or conclude anything at this point. It's simply too early.

Mike
11-19-2014, 07:54 PM
St. Louis being interviewed about it now by Pierre. Pretty much confirms everything I said. Good night.

Bugg
11-19-2014, 08:14 PM
St. Louis being interviewed about it now by Pierre. Pretty much confirms everything I said. Good night.

The footage of MSL watching his kids' pee wee games clinches it. If you're a parent you understand this. Again, kids grow fast. One day they're little guys who can barely walk and in what seems like the blink of an eye they're talking about college and careers.

Mike
11-19-2014, 08:27 PM
The footage of MSL watching his kids' pee wee games clinches it. If you're a parent you understand this. Again, kids grow fast. One day they're little guys who can barely walk and in what seems like the blink of an eye they're talking about college and careers.

I was on the bench of the opposite rink of his less than 12 hours after they lost the cup. He looked tired, but happy to be where he was.

Pete
11-19-2014, 09:09 PM
I was on the bench of the opposite rink of his less than 12 hours after they lost the cup. He looked tired, but happy to be where he was.

Funny thing is, names aside, if I told you we had a guy on the the team who wasn't 100% about winning a Cup...you be the first one to show him the door.

Good night.

Mike
11-19-2014, 09:25 PM
Funny thing is, names aside, if I told you we had a guy on the the team who wasn't 100% about winning a Cup...you be the first one to show him the door.

Good night.

Are you saying this as fact?

Pete
11-19-2014, 09:29 PM
Are you saying this as fact?

Being that I know you pretty well, yea.

Mike
11-19-2014, 09:34 PM
Being that I know you pretty well, yea.

No, you nut ... do you know a player is not 100% committed to a cup?

Pete
11-19-2014, 09:40 PM
No, you nut ... do you know a player is not 100% committed to a cup?

Well you can't be 100 committed to your kids and a Cup.

Mike
11-19-2014, 09:45 PM
Well you can't be 100 committed to your kids and a Cup.

What the?

Pete
11-19-2014, 09:48 PM
What? No?

Mike
11-19-2014, 09:52 PM
So whoever has kids has no desire to win a cup? It's not like he missed a game to bring his kid to Chuckee Cheese. He gets to see his family for 1/2 a season vs playing further away and seeing them when his team plays the Rangers, Isles, and Devils.

Pete
11-19-2014, 10:02 PM
So whoever has kids has no desire to win a cup? It's not like he missed a game to bring his kid to Chuckee Cheese. He gets to see his family for 1/2 a season vs playing further away and seeing them when his team plays the Rangers, Isles, and Devils.
Who said that? Clearly as the trade happened the rangers were not a favorite or even close. They were a bubble team.

Where is all this revisionist history coming from?

Mike
11-19-2014, 10:07 PM
Who said that? Clearly as the trade happened the rangers were not a favorite or even close. They were a bubble team.

Where is all this revisionist history coming from?

Tampa was bubble too. It's not like the Rangers were in the basement.

Pete
11-19-2014, 10:11 PM
Tampa was bubble too. It's not like the Rangers were in the basement.

Why do you keep moving the goalposts?

Mike
11-19-2014, 10:27 PM
Why do you keep moving the goalposts?

Because you don't know how to kick the ball straight.

Pete
11-19-2014, 10:28 PM
Because you don't know how to kick the ball straight.

Sure. Right.

NYR2711
11-20-2014, 10:04 AM
My question for the writer of this article is, if Marty didn't leave, would they have all the pieces they have now to be this good? They wouldnt have Callahan, and without him, they may not have gotten Boyle or Stralman as well.I don't agree with what the writer is saying at all. The only person that would know if they made a mistake is Marty, not the fans or any hockey writer.

Mike
11-20-2014, 10:24 AM
The guy just went to the scf, and is now with his wife and 3 boys. TB has done nothing other than play well in the first 25% of this season. What is there to regret right now?

AmericanJesus
11-20-2014, 10:35 AM
The guy just went to the scf, and is now with his wife and 3 boys. TB has done nothing other than play well in the first 25% of this season. What is there to regret right now?

Tampa's high today will be 66?

Pete
11-20-2014, 10:36 AM
I think there are quite a few people who are participating in this conversation who are not reading the article.


But itís more than just the presence of Stamkos that makes St-Louisí decision to leave Tampa Bay a regrettable one. The Rangers have had some serious injuries to deal with this season (including key cogs Derek Stepan and Ryan McDonagh), but even with those players in the lineup, the Lightning are deeper at forward and on defense and have more blossoming young talent (including Jonathan Drouin, Victor Hedman, Tyler Johnson and Nikita Kucherov, among others) than the Blueshirts.Debatable? I don't think so.

And right now, the fact is St-Louis left a team that looks to be a force with which to reckon for many years to come for a team whose leading scorer, Rick Nash, will be 31 years old next summer and whose backbone between the pipes will be 33 in March. At 39 years old, he wants to win now, but does anyone see the Rangers as a serious threat to win the Eastern Conference again this year? At this stage, thereís no guarantee theyíll even be in the post-season.Debatable? I don't think so.

Mike
11-20-2014, 10:50 AM
No one is debating that TB is on a better track than the Rangers. Inserting St. Louis' regrets just makes an otherwise boring article more interesting to talk about. Would we have 80 posts for a TB vs. NY debate in November? Why would he, or anyone else regret the same exact circumstances he's gone through, and will go through in the future. If TB won a cup, would you say "Shit, I wish I stayed in Tampa rather than play for the Rangers, and be with my family for the last 2-3 years"?

Pete
11-20-2014, 10:58 AM
No one is debating that TB is on a better track than the Rangers. Inserting St. Louis' regrets just makes an otherwise boring article more interesting to talk about. Would we have 80 posts for a TB vs. NY debate in November? Why would he, or anyone else regret the same exact circumstances he's gone through, and will go through in the future. If TB won a cup, would you say "Shit, I wish I stayed in Tampa rather than play for the Rangers, and be with my family for the last 2-3 years"?Did you read the article? Where does it say he regrets his decision?

RichieNextel305
11-20-2014, 11:16 AM
Who is really to say MSL will be around in this league when Tampa's young players are developed and making big impacts?

Don't get me wrong. They are for now and will be in the future a good hockey team. But this article is talking to futuristically for a guy who is 39.

As good as they look now, that team likely will go through the same process a lot of good young teams do where they almost have to lose first in order to learn how to win.

While that's happening, MSL will play close to home on a team where the names may not be as sexy, but the chances of winning in a year or maybe even 2 will be almost on par with that of Tampa Bay.

Dunny
11-20-2014, 11:18 AM
But what's the mistake on St. Louis' part? That he left a team better set for success in his age 40-45 years? Why would he care? The writer is a hack completely making shit up. The only judge of whether it was a mistake or not is Martin. End of story.

Pete
11-20-2014, 11:18 AM
Who is really to say MSL will be around in this league when Tampa's young players are developed and making big impacts?

Don't get me wrong. They are for now and will be in the future a good hockey team. But this article is talking to futuristically for a guy who is 39.

As good as they look now, that team likely will go through the same process a lot of good young teams do where they almost have to lose first in order to learn how to win.

While that's happening, MSL will play close to home on a team where the names may not be as sexy, but the chances of winning in a year or maybe even 2 will be almost on par with that of Tampa Bay.Well, they already are.

Future
11-20-2014, 11:20 AM
Well, they already are.
Depends on how you define making an impact.

They haven't even won a playoff series, let alone become some sort of perennial powerhouse.

NYR2711
11-20-2014, 11:21 AM
The better angle to go then with this article isn't that Marty made a mistake, its about how management has made the mistakes for the Rangers, something no one is going to deny. Everyone knows how bad management has screwed up this team and not drafted well, but we also have to look at how Tampa got top 3 picks for a couple of years to make themselves better, something the Rangers never had.

RichieNextel305
11-20-2014, 11:23 AM
That's what I mean. Guys like Drouin and Kucherov are good young players. But why are we talking about the Lightning like they're a dynasty in November following a season where they got swept in Round 1?

I like that team. I really do. I just think people have to bring in the expectations here a bit. They're gonna be good but being hot in November doesn't win you anything.

Dunny
11-20-2014, 11:26 AM
They really aren't some powerhouse team. I don't understand that belief at all. They're a good team, like 8 or 9 others in the East.

thes5
11-20-2014, 11:37 AM
Yep, and the Avs had a great season last year. Lots of young talent. It would seem logical to draw a conclusion that they would be a top team this year. Oops!!

Not quite a quarter of the season has been played and this hack wants to coronate the Bolts as future champs. Bad move.

The Rangers have gone to the ECF twice in the last four years. Martly left a bad situation, for him, to a better one. Who the fuck is Proteau to state that a 39 year old future HOF'er made a mistake?

Let's just wait to see how the rest of the season shakes out before drawing any idiotic conclusions.

Pete
11-20-2014, 11:40 AM
Depends on how you define making an impact.

They haven't even won a playoff series, let alone become some sort of perennial powerhouse.

I define making an impact by having 2 Calder candidates, a Vezina caliber goalie, a 23 year old Norris Caliber defenseman, 4 players in the top 30 in scoring, 2 in the top 10, and they are 2nd in the conference, 2nd in the NHL in G/G, and they just kicked our ass.

Maybe we should stop acting like they aren't good?

And who cares if they aren't a perennial power house? They are poised to be better than us, for longer than us. That's the gyst of the article.

Pete
11-20-2014, 11:40 AM
Yep, and the Avs had a great season last year. Lots of young talent. It would seem logical to draw a conclusion that they would be a top team this year. Oops!!

Not quite a quarter of the season has been played and this hack wants to coronate the Bolts as future champs. Bad move.

The Rangers have gone to the ECF twice in the last four years. Martly left a bad situation, for him, to a better one. Who the fuck is Proteau to state that a 39 year old future HOF'er made a mistake?

Let's just wait to see how the rest of the season shakes out before drawing any idiotic conclusions.

You clearly didn't read the article.

Vodka Drunkenski
11-20-2014, 11:42 AM
Did you read the article? Where does it say he regrets his decision?

The writer says it is a regrettable decision.

Pete
11-20-2014, 11:43 AM
The writer says it is a regrettable decision.

But it doesn't say MSL regrets it.

Vodka Drunkenski
11-20-2014, 11:45 AM
I never put much into any team the first 2 months. Look at Pittsburgh for instance, great record but we owned them pretty much twice.

Vodka Drunkenski
11-20-2014, 11:47 AM
But it doesn't say MSL regrets it.

But isn't the debate if it will be a regrettable decision or not?

Pete
11-20-2014, 11:48 AM
I never put much into any team the first 2 months. Look at Pittsburgh for instance, great record but we owned them pretty much twice.

Fair enough, and I agree...But we didn't come close to Tampa. We couldn't even touch the puck. I mean, they were a good team last year. They had 101 points playing mostly without Stamkos, and then without MSL (when he was P/G). Then they shored up some weak spots.

So why is everyone claiming they aren't that good?

Dunny
11-20-2014, 11:48 AM
I've complety lost track of the arguements here.

There is stuff that's certainly debateable: Who's the better team, who won the trade etc etc. And then their is a the part where the shitty author tries to tell us that St. Louis made a mistake. That's retarded. Only St. Louis can tell us that, and he's in the record as saying the exact opposite. So what's the debate about?

Pete
11-20-2014, 11:50 AM
But isn't the debate if it will be a regrettable decision or not?


Yes, by the writer's opinion, not MSL's.

We won't know if MSL regrets it, maybe ever.
I've complety lost track of the arguements here.

There is stuff that's certainly debateable: Who's the better team, who won the trade etc etc. And then their is a the part where the shitty author tries to tell us that St. Louis made a mistake. That's retarded. Only St. Louis can tell us that, and he's in the record as saying the exact opposite. So what's the debate about?


But, it's outright hypocritical for people to take shots at the writer when we sit here every day on July 1st and criticize where players choose to sign. Should I dig up the Pouliot to Edmonton thread?

Future
11-20-2014, 11:52 AM
I define making an impact by having 2 Calder candidates, a Vezina caliber goalie, a 23 year old Norris Caliber defenseman, 4 players in the top 30 in scoring, 2 in the top 10, and they are 2nd in the conference, 2nd in the NHL in G/G, and they just kicked our ass.

Maybe we should stop acting like they aren't good?

And who cares if they aren't a perennial power house? They are poised to be better than us, for longer than us. That's the gyst of the article.
Poised to be and being aren't exactly the same.

You've pretty much said it yourself that nothing matters if you don't have any success in the playoffs, and they haven't proven that they are capable of doing that. I'm not saying that they don't have young talent, but I don't think they've really shown anything to suggest that, over the next, say, 5 years, they're going to be any better than the Rangers.

Pete
11-20-2014, 11:55 AM
Poised to be and being aren't exactly the same.

You've pretty much said it yourself that nothing matters if you don't have any success in the playoffs, and they haven't proven that they are capable of doing that. I'm not saying that they don't have young talent, but I don't think they've really shown anything to suggest that, over the next, say, 5 years, they're going to be any better than the Rangers.They way their team is built and their cap situation suggests they are now, and will be better than the Rangers for the next 2-3 years. I don't really care about the next 5, MSL is unlikely to play 5 more seasons.

They got a bad break with Bishop getting hurt for the playoffs last year. The Rangers don't make it out of Philly without Lundqvist, so it's hard to say TB hasn't proven anything when they never really had a chance to.

NYR2711
11-20-2014, 12:11 PM
But, it's outright hypocritical for people to take shots at the writer when we sit here every day on July 1st and criticize where players choose to sign. Should I dig up the Pouliot to Edmonton thread?

But the difference is that we are a bunch of puts' on a message board and this is a guy that is paid to be a professional hockey writer that is writing a piece based off no actual facts, just his opinion saying that Marty made a mistake. Only the payer can say that, and that is at least my argument here. IMO, the author would have been better talking about Sather and the Rangers brass making a mistake and mistakes in the past. I mean, if for gonna write a piece saying Marty made a mistake, then why not write an article saying Boyle and Stralman made mistakes leaving a team that went to the finals for a team that got swept in the first round. Its basically saying the same thing.

Pete
11-20-2014, 12:13 PM
But the difference is that we are a bunch of puts' on a message board and this is a guy that is paid to be a professional hockey writer that is writing a piece based off no actual facts, just his opinion saying that Marty made a mistake. Only the payer can say that, and that is at least my argument here. IMO, the author would have been better talking about Sather and the Rangers brass making a mistake and mistakes in the past. I mean, if for gonna write a piece saying Marty made a mistake, then why not write an article saying Boyle and Stralman made mistakes leaving a team that went to the finals for a team that got swept in the first round. Its basically saying the same thing.Proteau isn't a reporter. He's a columnist. Big difference.

It's an opinion piece. He writes his opinion on various NHL related topics.

NYR2711
11-20-2014, 12:21 PM
Proteau isn't a reporter. He's a columnist. Big difference.

It's an opinion piece. He writes his opinion on various NHL related topics.

Either way he is paid for these types of pieces, and we aren't. This really isn't an NHL topic IMO because he is making up a players decision without any fact here. Like I said, if he had said that Sather and the Rangers brass made mistakes, then I would be fine with it, but to say Marty made the mistake is a little out there to me.

Vodka Drunkenski
11-20-2014, 12:22 PM
Fair enough, and I agree...But we didn't come close to Tampa. We couldn't even touch the puck. I mean, they were a good team last year. They had 101 points playing mostly without Stamkos, and then without MSL (when he was P/G). Then they shored up some weak spots. So why is everyone claiming they aren't that good?

Didn't read the whole thread to see everyone claim they're not good.

Mike
11-20-2014, 12:33 PM
I don't think anyone said they weren't good. It's just that they haven't done anything yet. For all we know, they could be the next San Jose Sharks.

thes5
11-20-2014, 12:35 PM
But it doesn't say MSL regrets it.

Exactly!

So, who is Proteau to state that it was a regrettable decision? Based on what, 20 games?

Pete
11-20-2014, 12:37 PM
I don't think anyone said they weren't good. It's just that they haven't done anything yet. For all we know, they could be the next San Jose Sharks.

So what? We look like a non-playoff team right now LOL.

Pete
11-20-2014, 12:37 PM
Exactly!

So, who is Proteau to state that it was a regrettable decision? Based on what, 20 games?

Again, you haven't read the article.

Mike
11-20-2014, 12:40 PM
Also, I don't believe in downplaying a teams playoff performance, or making excuses why they won, or lost.
First off, Hank played like dog ass in the Philly series. He had a solid game 7, but one can argue we shouldn't have been in a game 7 situation if he was a little tighter. They definitely rallied around MSL in the Pens series, but Hank was on lockdown as well. Not sure how much better Price could have done if he was playing the whole series. Habs problem wasn't preventing goals, it was scoring them.

Mike
11-20-2014, 12:44 PM
So what? We look like a non-playoff team right now LOL.

Right, but you keep bringing up a point that I'm not debating. My point is that MSL doesn't give a fuck about Tampa, even if the author thinks he made a mistake. We could write these stories for every player that walks away from a good team via fa every year. It's irrelevant. Writing just to write.

Pete
11-20-2014, 12:57 PM
Right, but you keep bringing up a point that I'm not debating. My point is that MSL doesn't give a fuck about Tampa, even if the author thinks he made a mistake. We could write these stories for every player that walks away from a good team via fa every year. It's irrelevant. Writing just to write.

OK, and that's fine, he's a columnist who's paid for his opinion. So why is he an idiot, or a moron, or anything else people are calling him here? First off, he's not wrong. Tampa is on the way up, NY doesn't look to be. He's saying that MSL made the wrong move. We debate these very points here every day...Difference is he's getting paid for his.

Mike
11-20-2014, 01:01 PM
OK, and that's fine, he's a columnist who's paid for his opinion. So why is he an idiot, or a moron, or anything else people are calling him here? First off, he's not wrong. Tampa is on the way up, NY doesn't look to be. He's saying that MSL made the wrong move. We debate these very points here every day...Difference is he's getting paid for his.

So? There are millions of paid employees who are idiots. He thinks TB is better than NY. No shit. He thinks MSL made a mistake. Ask MSL if he thinks he made a mistake. The answer is no, and it won't matter what TB does. That's all I'm trying to say.

CreaseCrusader91
11-20-2014, 01:26 PM
OK, and that's fine, he's a columnist who's paid for his opinion. So why is he an idiot, or a moron, or anything else people are calling him here? First off, he's not wrong. Tampa is on the way up, NY doesn't look to be. He's saying that MSL made the wrong move. We debate these very points here every day...Difference is he's getting paid for his.
Because he took the easy way out. He doesn't address the fact that St. Louis has been more than open about the fact of why he came to NYR.

He fails to cite one of the dozen of statements made on the subject. If he did that, the logic if St. Louis making a mistake or one that he will regret it, is lost.

Vodka Drunkenski
11-20-2014, 01:28 PM
MSG actually did a piece on MSL last night and how happy he is to be closer to home with his family.

CreaseCrusader91
11-20-2014, 01:32 PM
MSG actually did a piece on MSL last night and how happy he is to be closer to home with his family.
He said it in March with the TB Times that he never got to see his sons play.


But St. Louis, dealt Wednesday to the Rangers, said he also wanted to create a situation in which he could spend more time with his family at his Greenwich, Conn., home base.

"I always felt as my kids got older, I would try to come here," St. Louis said Thursday of the New York area. "I think my success and the things that were happening in Tampa kept me there longer than I probably envisioned.

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hockey/lightning/marty-st-louis-family-considerations-came-first/2168910

Or there was this piece written before the game was played


Yzerman at the time also served as GM of Canada. St. Louis was ultimately named to the team as an injury replacement for Stamkos.

St. Louis later admitted that was just part of the reason he wanted out and was willing to waive his no-trade clause if it meant playing on Broadway and being closer to his home in Greenwich, Conn.

"I was three wins from winning a Stanley Cup [in 2014 with the Rangers]," St. Louis said. "The amount of time I've been at home this year, sleeping with my family and being with my kids, seeing their hockey games, has been so great. I'm pleased with the opportunity I got to play for a Stanley Cup and the time I get to be with my kids."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=739606


Yea the Yzerman thing played a role, and it was a means to an end. However, you can't deny that family was a priority, and it also helped that NY is a team that could win.

Pete
11-20-2014, 03:01 PM
So? There are millions of paid employees who are idiots. He thinks TB is better than NY. No shit. He thinks MSL made a mistake. Ask MSL if he thinks he made a mistake. The answer is no, and it won't matter what TB does. That's all I'm trying to say.You don't know what the answer to that question is. Only MSL knows.

Articles like this get written all the time, especially regarding free agency, and now this particular writer is an idiot? For doing the same thing we all do July 1st of every year? I guess we're all idiots.

Thump23
11-20-2014, 03:28 PM
I'm curious what kind of articles he was writing about MSL and the Rangers last June.

It's a knee jerk reaction to one game in November. If Rangers win 5-1, maybe he's bashing Callahan for not taking the Rangers offer last year.

Pete
11-20-2014, 03:41 PM
Once again, it has very little to do with the one game in November, other than the timing of it. Just read the article folks.

thes5
11-20-2014, 03:42 PM
Again, you haven't read the article.

St-Louis made a huge mistake.

But it’s more than just the presence of Stamkos that makes St-Louis’ decision to leave Tampa Bay a regrettable one.

Respectfully, you are beating a dead horse here.

The guys argument is flawed. Stop trying to justify it.

Thump23
11-20-2014, 03:44 PM
Once again, it has very little to do with the one game in November, other than the timing of it. Just read the article folks.

I read the article. You don't think it's a little odd it came out after the two teams played?

Pete
11-20-2014, 03:48 PM
I read the article. You don't think it's a little odd it came out after the two teams played?

It's not odd at all, that's what Proteau does.

But does the article say "Based on the 5-1 drubbing Tampa laid on New York, I know for fact that St. Louis regrets his decision."?

No.

It says, in a nutshell, paraphrased "I think he made a bad choice because Tampa is on the way up, while NY is on the way down, that game is just a microcosm."

I fail to see how that opinion makes him stupid, or a moron, or anything else. He makes a valid point. Can that point be countered? Of course, most opinion can. But there are far too many people who are reacting to things that weren't even written.

Thump23
11-20-2014, 03:52 PM
It's not odd at all, that's what Proteau does.

But does the article say "Based on the 5-1 drubbing Tampa laid on New York, I know for fact that St. Louis regrets his decision."?

No.

It says, in a nutshell, paraphrased "I think he made a bad choice because Tampa is on the way up, while NY is on the way down, that game is just a microcosm."

I fail to see how that opinion makes him stupid, or a moron, or anything else. He makes a valid point. Can that point be countered? Of course, most opinion can. But there are far too many people who are reacting to things that weren't even written.

Just my opinion, but I'd take the piece a little more serious if it didn't come out fresh off the heals of the 5-1 loss. You say it's odd, that your opinion. I don't see it that way. I think if the outcome of that game were reversed, that article never gets written/released. It was never just about the two teams that dictated MSL wanting to come here, everyone knows that. You want to take a look at rosters and records and make the claim that MSL made a mistake, that's fair. But that's not what dictated the move. So in that regard, he's wrong, no?

Pete
11-20-2014, 03:54 PM
Just my opinion, but I'd take the piece a little more serious if it didn't come out fresh off the heals of the 5-1 loss. You say it's odd, that your opinion. I don't see it that way. I think if the outcome of that game were reversed, that article never gets written/released. It was never just about the two teams that dictated MSL wanting to come here, everyone knows that. You want to take a look at rosters and records and make the claim that MSL made a mistake, that's fair. But that's not what dictated the move. So in that regard, he's wrong, no?

I said the timing ISN'T odd. That's Proteau's M.O.

CreaseCrusader91
11-20-2014, 03:56 PM
It would make sense if MSL made the move because he thought NYR offered a better chance to win and he said as much. Then it would be fair to say he made bad choice and regretted it.

The construct of his argument blatantly ignores the intangibles associated with him making the move, and things he couldn't get in Tampa.

AmericanJesus
11-20-2014, 03:58 PM
If he was a good a writer he makes this argument within hours of the trade.

Thump23
11-20-2014, 04:01 PM
I said the timing ISN'T odd. That's Proteau's M.O.

True, I should have bolded your "Based on the 5-1 drubbing Tampa laid on New York, I know for fact that St. Louis regrets his decision," statement.

No he didn't say that in the article explicitly, but c'mon it's kinda obvious, imo.

Thump23
11-20-2014, 04:02 PM
It would make sense if MSL made the move because he thought NYR offered a better chance to win and he said as much. Then it would be fair to say he made bad choice and regretted it.

The construct of his argument blatantly ignores the intangibles associated with him making the move, and things he couldn't get in Tampa.

They did go to the finals last year though, lol. Much further than Tampa. So...

Pete
11-20-2014, 04:03 PM
If he was a good a writer he makes this argument within hours of the trade.

Oh please, no one judges a trade hours after it happens.

Pete
11-20-2014, 04:04 PM
They did go to the finals last year though, lol. Much further than Tampa. So...

That's really not an accurate way to judge the state of either team. How far do the Rangers go without Hank?

Thump23
11-20-2014, 04:13 PM
That's really not an accurate way to judge the state of either team. How far do the Rangers go without Hank?

No one knows but that argument works both ways. Have the Rangers even played a game with their full lineup yet? Right now Tampa seems more complete but I'll wait till at least late December before I'm ready to pass judgement on any team in this league. It's a long season.

And as far as MSL goes, I don't think he regrets his decision one bit.

Pete
11-20-2014, 04:15 PM
No one knows but that argument works both ways. Have the Rangers even played a game with their full lineup yet? Right now Tampa seems more complete but I'll wait till at least late December before I'm ready to pass judgement on any team in this league. It's a long season.

And as far as MSL goes, I don't think he regrets his decision one bit.

Tampa been playing without Hednan. Same as us missing McD.

Future
11-20-2014, 04:20 PM
That's really not an accurate way to judge the state of either team. How far do the Rangers go without Hank?
Idk but Cam Talbot is certainly an upgrade over Lindback.

And if both teams are entirely dependent on their goalie to succeed in the playoffs, neither one of them is in a better position than the other. I can agree that the Lightning are trending up moreso than the Rangers, but the whole "What if Hank got hurt" argument undermines it.

Thump23
11-20-2014, 04:21 PM
Tampa been playing without Hednan. Same as us missing McD.

And the Rangers went almost two months without Boyle and Stepan. Two pretty important pieces. Then they come back on McD goes out. They were a shit storm till December last year and it worked out ok. If and when they get healthy and AV fills out the bottom 6 with guys he's comfortable with, they will be better.

Pete
11-20-2014, 04:24 PM
Idk but Cam Talbot is certainly an upgrade over Lindback.

And if both teams are entirely dependent on their goalie to succeed in the playoffs, neither one of them is in a better position than the other. I can agree that the Lightning are trending up moreso than the Rangers, but the whole "What if Hank got hurt" argument undermines it.

I'm not quite sure how. People like to point out that the Rangers went further and the Lightning were out in 4 games...But totally neglect that they lost their starting goalie...Not sure how many teams can survive that, Rangers included.

But it's pretty hypocritical for anyone to call out the author for "conveniently leaving out" that MSL wanted the trade for non hockey reasons, when they are "conveniently leaving out" that TB had no goalie and that's why they were out in 4 games...Really not a reflection on their team at all.

Pete
11-20-2014, 04:25 PM
And the Rangers went almost two months without Boyle and Stepan. Two pretty important pieces. Then they come back on McD goes out. They were a shit storm till December last year and it worked out ok. If and when they get healthy and AV fills out the bottom 6 with guys he's comfortable with, they will be better.

Do you expect to beat the odds every year?

Thump23
11-20-2014, 04:31 PM
Do you expect to beat the odds every year?

No, of course not. But I trust this coach and have faith in the players he has at his disposal. Once he gets the right combination of players in the lineup and once (if) they get fully healthy, I think they'll go on a bit of a run.

Future
11-20-2014, 04:47 PM
I'm not quite sure how. People like to point out that the Rangers went further and the Lightning were out in 4 games...But totally neglect that they lost their starting goalie...Not sure how many teams can survive that, Rangers included.

But it's pretty hypocritical for anyone to call out the author for "conveniently leaving out" that MSL wanted the trade for non hockey reasons, when they are "conveniently leaving out" that TB had no goalie and that's why they were out in 4 games...Really not a reflection on their team at all.
Yea but we also don't know that they would have won with Bishop. That team was seriously flawed defensively even with him.

Pete
11-20-2014, 04:57 PM
Yea but we also don't know that they would have won with Bishop. That team was seriously flawed defensively even with him.

Yep, very true. As I said earlier, they shored up some of their holes this year, Stralman playing a big part.

Mike
11-20-2014, 05:18 PM
You don't know what the answer to that question is. Only MSL knows.


But St. Louis, dealt Wednesday to the Rangers, said he also wanted to create a situation in which he could spend more time with his family at his Greenwich, Conn., home base.

"I always felt as my kids got older, I would try to come here," St. Louis said Thursday of the New York area. "I think my success and the things that were happening in Tampa kept me there longer than I probably envisioned.
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hocke...-first/2168910

Or there was this piece written before the game was played

Yzerman at the time also served as GM of Canada. St. Louis was ultimately named to the team as an injury replacement for Stamkos.

St. Louis later admitted that was just part of the reason he wanted out and was willing to waive his no-trade clause if it meant playing on Broadway and being closer to his home in Greenwich, Conn.

"I was three wins from winning a Stanley Cup [in 2014 with the Rangers]," St. Louis said. "The amount of time I've been at home this year, sleeping with my family and being with my kids, seeing their hockey games, has been so great. I'm pleased with the opportunity I got to play for a Stanley Cup and the time I get to be with my kids."





Articles like this get written all the time, especially regarding free agency, and now this particular writer is an idiot? For doing the same thing we all do July 1st of every year? I guess we're all idiots.


Do you expect to beat the odds every year?
I don't like the fact that we have to scratch and claw every year. Eventually it's going to catch up to us to a point where it's insurmountable. However, you want to be playing your best hockey at the end of the season, not in October, and November.

Pete
11-20-2014, 05:33 PM
What are the chances that MSL says in an interview anything OTHER than "I'm really happy here.'?

a. Slim
b. None
c. BOTH

Mike
11-20-2014, 05:50 PM
What are the chances that MSL says in an interview anything OTHER than "I'm really happy here.'?

a. Slim
b. None
c. BOTH
What are the chances that he's not happy here? He wanted to come here over 2 seasons ago. Now he's here, with his family, and was 3 wins away from winning another cup. Not only that, but as Jekyll and Hyde as the Rangers have been thus far, they're still not going to go down easy, and if they're in the playoffs they won't be an easy out. As displeased as we can get with our team, the Rangers have won the most playoff series over the last 3 years than any other team in the EC, and 2nd overall in the league next to LA.

Pete
11-20-2014, 05:55 PM
What are the chances that he's not happy here? He wanted to come here over 2 seasons ago. Now he's here, with his family, and was 3 wins away from winning another cup. Not only that, but as Jekyll and Hyde as the Rangers have been thus far, they're still not going to go down easy, and if they're in the playoffs they won't be an easy out. As displeased as we can get with our team, the Rangers have won the most playoff series over the last 3 years than any other team in the EC, and 2nd overall in the league next to LA.

I don't know how many different ways I can say it...I don't care if MSL is happy here. The author never said MSL isn't happy. He said he made a bad decision because Tampa is trending up, and and the Rangers don't look so great right now. You're all putting words into the guys mouth.

I can't keep going back and forth over it if you're going to keep arguing things that no one ever said.

Mike
11-20-2014, 06:00 PM
What are the chances that MSL says in an interview anything OTHER than "I'm really happy here.'?

a. Slim
b. None
c. BOTH


I don't know how many different ways I can say it...I don't care if MSL is happy here. The author never said MSL isn't happy. He said he made a bad decision because Tampa is trending up, and and the Rangers don't look so great right now. You're all putting words into the guys mouth.

I can't keep going back and forth over it if you're going to keep arguing things that no one ever said.
You asked the question, dude.

Pete
11-20-2014, 06:01 PM
You asked the question, dude.

No, I didn't. You all have been pounding the MSL is happy. I'm simply saying you can't know for sure, and the author never said otherwise. He never mentioned MSL happiness.

CreaseCrusader91
11-20-2014, 06:11 PM
No, I didn't. You all have been pounding the MSL is happy. I'm simply saying you can't know for sure, and the author never said otherwise. He never mentioned MSL happiness.
And Proteau's argument is flawed because he ignores the crux of the argument for MSL coming here.

Mike
11-20-2014, 06:13 PM
Well here's the title of the article:
When he left the Lightning for the Rangers, Martin St-Louis made a huge mistake

Here are some quotes:
After watching Martin St-Louis play his former teammates in Tampa Bay for the first time since the March trade that sent him to the New York Rangers for Ryan Callahan, and two draft picks, I’m pretty confident in saying this:

St-Louis made a huge mistake.


But it’s more than just the presence of Stamkos that makes St-Louis’ decision to leave Tampa Bay a regrettable one


St-Louis has had a Hall-of-Fame worthy career, but even Hall-of-Famers make mistakes. And thus far, his choice to leave Stamkos & Co. behind looks to be the worst move he could’ve made.

Now I'm no rocket scientist, but words, and quotes like "huge mistake" and "regrettable" imply unhappiness. When were you ever happy after making a huge mistake, or regretting something? Sorry he didn't use the word "unhappy", but he's a paragraph away from implying that St. Louis is laying in a bathtub with a box of razor blades.

Pete
11-20-2014, 06:26 PM
Well here's the title of the article:

Here are some quotes:



[/COLOR]

Now I'm no rocket scientist, but words, and quotes like "huge mistake" and "regrettable" imply unhappiness. When were you ever happy after making a huge mistake, or regretting something? Sorry he didn't use the word "unhappy", but he's a paragraph away from implying that St. Louis is laying in a bathtub with a box of razor blades.

Argue with what he actually said, not what you think he implies.

I think you made a mistake doesn't equal you must be unhappy. Just means if I were you, I wouldn't have done that.

Pete
11-20-2014, 06:27 PM
And Proteau's argument is flawed because he ignores the crux of the argument for MSL coming here.

Well, I believe it had more to do with the OLY team than anything. You don't make trade requests due to family reasons when you're in a playoff race and Stamkos is injured. Something happened and I doubt it was just family.

TheDozen
11-20-2014, 06:31 PM
It's November, but somehow the Rangers lost a Game 7 the other night.

CreaseCrusader91
11-20-2014, 06:33 PM
Well, I believe it had more to do with the OLY team than anything. You don't make trade requests due to family reasons when you're in a playoff race and Stamkos is injured. Something happened and I doubt it was just family.
Yes, I get that. OLY fueled it and gave him an out. I am just saying that he probably doesn't regret it because he made his first cup in 10 years.

I just get frustrated that Proteau doesn't mention the family element at all. I get all his other points, not that I agree with them all, but to say he regrets the trade is just not a strong argument.

NYR looks rough now, but I want to give this team a full two weeks with a healthy roster to see what they are actually capable of before conceding that they are trending down.

Ultimately they are, but I think they still have a good limited window this year. We will see though.

Pete
11-20-2014, 06:34 PM
Yes, I get that. OLY fueled it and gave him an out. I am just saying that he probably doesn't regret it because he made his first cup in 10 years.

I just get frustrated that Proteau doesn't mention the family element at all. I get all his other points, not that I agree with them all, but to say he regrets the trade is just not a strong argument.

NYR looks rough now, but I want to give this team a full two weeks with a healthy roster to see what they are actually capable of before conceding that they are trending down.

Ultimately they are, but I think they still have a good limited window this year. We will see though.

He didn't say MSL regrets anything. He used the word regrettable. It isn't the same.

Mike
11-20-2014, 06:48 PM
Well, I believe it had more to do with the OLY team than anything. You don't make trade requests due to family reasons when you're in a playoff race and Stamkos is injured. Something happened and I doubt it was just family.

I told you he wanted out 2 seasons ago. You're ignoring that. Being left out of the OLY was icing on the cake.

Pete
11-20-2014, 06:50 PM
I told you he wanted out 2 seasons ago. You're ignoring that. Being left out of the OLY was icing on the cake.

Wanted out why? According to who?

It took 2 seasons to trade him?

Why did he resign there?

Bugg
11-20-2014, 06:57 PM
I don't like the fact that we have to scratch and claw every year. Eventually it's going to catch up to us to a point where it's insurmountable. However, you want to be playing your best hockey at the end of the season, not in October, and November.Everybody has to scratch and claw their way up the greasy pole, first to get in, and than to keep going into May and June. At loss why MSL is a ...bad guy?...for wanting to do it in a place where his wife and kids live with arguably based on last spring a better team. And somehow it was a mistake to not stay in a place where he didn't get along with the GM and didn't feature a home with his family every day. Further it was and thing to trade Callahan who wanted to be be paid ridiculously 0ut of whack with his contribution and have a no trade clause. So out of whack that he took less money to resign with the Bolts than he was offered by Sather.

I simply don't understand why anyone faults MSL, spare the 6 or 7 Bolts fans there are(and they are only mad because MSL > Callahan). . And in a cap league (caps are BS, another day, another thread) he's a bad guy for wanting to play at home. While it is a business why is a player trying to do right for himself and his family the and guy here?

RichieNextel305
11-20-2014, 07:21 PM
I just don't agree with the notion that Tampa Bay, without any shadow of any doubt, will 100% be a better team than the Rangers over the course of the next 2 or 3 years.

Are they better at the moment? For sure. They're hot. We're still finding consistency. But, MSL only has another 2 or 3 years, at most, left in the NHL. While I do love the way the Lightning are built, I don't know if in those 2 or 3 years that they will be better than us each and every single year. Lets not sell ourselves short here.

I could understand if St. Louis forced a trade to the Hurricanes. But, it's not the case. He was as close to a Cup last year as he's been since he won in 2004, and he currently plays on a team that basically is a win-now team (we have our holes, like everyone else but you can't dismiss the fact that the Rangers are a win-now team given Lundqvist/Nash and their ages) close to home.

Mike
11-20-2014, 07:25 PM
Wanted out why? According to who?

It took 2 seasons to trade him?

Why did he resign there?
Because he wanted to come home. He resigned in 11/12. His wife was just having their 3rd son. It probably started to hit him after that. He got the bug to come home during the lock out. Doesn't this time line I'm giving you start to make sense?

Pete
11-20-2014, 07:27 PM
Because he wanted to come home. He resigned in 11/12. His wife was just having their 3rd son. It probably started to hit him after that. He got the bug to come home during the lock out. Doesn't this time line I'm giving you start to make sense?

According to who?

Why not try and get traded during the off season? It actually makes very little sense.

Mike
11-20-2014, 07:28 PM
According to who?

Why not try and get traded during the off season? It actually makes very little sense.

He wasn't waving his ntc unless it was to come here. If you want to know who, you can call me.

Pete
11-20-2014, 07:31 PM
He wasn't waving his ntc unless it was to come here. If you want to know who, you can call me.

He could have signed a contract here as a UFA. He could have forced a trade here the same way he forced it last year.

It's too convenient that he all of a sudden needed to "come home" after an Olympic snub.

Pete
11-20-2014, 07:37 PM
Everybody has to scratch and claw their way up the greasy pole, first to get in, and than to keep going into May and June. At loss why MSL is a ...bad guy?...for wanting to do it in a place where his wife and kids live with arguably based on last spring a better team. And somehow it was a mistake to not stay in a place where he didn't get along with the GM and didn't feature a home with his family every day. Further it was and thing to trade Callahan who wanted to be be paid ridiculously 0ut of whack with his contribution and have a no trade clause. So out of whack that he took less money to resign with the Bolts than he was offered by Sather.

I simply don't understand why anyone faults MSL, spare the 6 or 7 Bolts fans there are(and they are only mad because MSL > Callahan). . And in a cap league (caps are BS, another day, another thread) he's a bad guy for wanting to play at home. While it is a business why is a player trying to do right for himself and his family the and guy here?

Can you quote the posts that call MSL a bad guy?

Bugg
11-20-2014, 07:56 PM
Can you quote the posts that call MSL a bad guy?Clear the implication is that somehow some way MSL should have stayed in TB and was wrong to come here. My main point is you have kids they aren't getting any younger and there is something decent about a man who make his family a priority.

No offense, but we're going in circles here. I'm out on this.

Pete
11-20-2014, 08:17 PM
Clear the implication is that somehow some way MSL should have stayed in TB and was wrong to come here. My main point is you have kids they aren't getting any younger and there is something decent about a man who make his family a priority.

No offense, but we're going in circles here. I'm out on this.

There is no implication whatsoever that he's a "bad guy" for wanting to be with his family.

Dunny
11-20-2014, 09:42 PM
Somebody go look at the roster they iced tonight in a shit-kicking against the Leafs and then explain to me why they are so much better than us.

Pete
11-20-2014, 09:56 PM
The article did a pretty good job outlining it. Maybe you should read it.

Dunny
11-20-2014, 10:42 PM
What Proteau does is draw broad conclusions from tiny pieces of data. That's why he's a garbage clown.

Then, along with that intentional garbage clowning he decides that now is the time to provide some thesis on why St. Louis made a horrible mistake, throwing both context and the fact he played in the fucking Stanley Cup Final out the window. I'm not sure why you've latched on to this so much, but hey that's your perogotive.

Pete
11-21-2014, 07:25 AM
What Proteau does is draw broad conclusions from tiny pieces of data. That's why he's a garbage clown.

Then, along with that intentional garbage clowning he decides that now is the time to provide some thesis on why St. Louis made a horrible mistake, throwing both context and the fact he played in the fucking Stanley Cup Final out the window. I'm not sure why you've latched on to this so much, but hey that's your perogotive.

Throughout this whole thread I haven't once said I agree with anything other than what he said about TB heading up and NY not so much.

I find it extremely irritating that some people either clearly didn't read the article or don't like the article so they have chosen to put words in the author's mouth.

- No one in the article or this thread called him a bad guy, yet one person here is claiming that happened when it didn't.

- Author clearly states that the ass kicking TB gave us is simply a microcosm of the state of both teams, yet half the people in the thread are saying "Yea, 1 game in November is going to make MSL regret the trade?" When that SO CLEARLY is not the point. (And how hypocritical is it to call out Proteau and then go into the Out of Town thread and crack wise about TB losing to TO. Congrats, now you're doing what you accused someone else of doing)

- Big chunk of people arguing that MSL is happy. Author never mentioned MSLs happiness. Just said he thinks the wrong decision was made. Again, same thing we do here every free agency.

CC91 is the only guy in here who made a valid counterpoint without putting words in the Author's mouth.

I don't even like Proteau. But if we want to have a debate, let's actually read the article and debate the content of the article. Not what we think the author meant...what he ACTUALLY said.

thes5
11-21-2014, 08:24 AM
Pete, what Proteau did was draw a conclusion with insufficient evidence.

Clearly, the Rangers have been the better team over the last few years. To date, the Bolts have not done anything other than play well in the first quarter of this season.

If his point was that the Bolts have some good young players, that's fine, but that was not his point. He implied that MSL made a mistake in asking out of Tampa because they are on the upswing. What he didn't address is MSL's personal life, or the fact that Tampa has not won a playoff series since 2010.

So, what point are YOU trying to make? Are you implying that the TBL are going to exceed what MSL and the NYR did last season? What is it that would make MSL regret his decision?

Bretzky
11-21-2014, 08:40 AM
Pete, the word "microcosm" is key here, but it doesn't absolve him.

Proteau's claim that one game is a microcosm of a baseless claim that he wants to paint a certain way is still using one game as the sole basis for a... baseless argument.

The article should read:

I'm guessing here but maybe MSL thinks he made a mistake coming to NY because a) 5-1 November loss just happened (ooo I can now use this as a "microcosm" to bolster my guess/claim) and b) the Lightning roster on paper turns me on and the Rangers were a fluke being in the SCF (even though the same young core is intact and the pieces that were lost and not replaced may be replaced by the deadline).

Proteau is this kind of writer and you've even admitted it. So why are you defending him to no end here just because you happen to agree with the one part about Tampa being on the rise and NY on the decline (despite their being no substantial evidence to support that unless you put stock in November standings, in which case the Islanders are Cup contenders on par with the Penguins)?

Its still a trash article. It could've read "Tampa trending up. NYR trending down," but he chose to make it about MSL making a mistake (which after a SCF run vs a first round sweep is laughable). Even a broken clock is right twice a day. You may agree with one piece of the article. That's fine. We're certainly entitled to label the article as a whole as pure trash.

Pete
11-21-2014, 08:42 AM
Pete, what Proteau did was draw a conclusion with insufficient evidence.

Clearly, the Rangers have been the better team over the last few years. To date, the Bolts have not done anything other than play well in the first quarter of this season.

If his point was that the Bolts have some good young players, that's fine, but that was not his point. He implied that MSL made a mistake in asking out of Tampa because they are on the upswing. What he didn't address is MSL's personal life, or the fact that Tampa has not won a playoff series since 2010.

So, what point are YOU trying to make? Are you implying that the TBL are going to exceed what MSL and the NYR did last season? What is it that would make MSL regret his decision?

I already addressed this, but I'll do it one more time.

I agree with Proteau that Tampa is a team on the upswing and over the next 2 years can be better than the Rangers based on the age of their talent and their cap flexibility.

Anyone who thinks Proteau makes this statement based on 1/4 season didn't read the article and have a short memory because TB had 101 points last year, more than we did. Not that its the end all be all, but it's relevant. We were healthy throughout the playoffs, they lost their goalie, so comparing how far each team went as a metric for who's better is moot. What happened in 2010 is moot. The author is talking about moving forward.

Again, the author never said that he thinks or knows MSL regrets this decision. No one does, except for MSL. Calling a decision regrettable is not the same as saying MSL regrets it, or isn't happy here.

You're right in saying that the author doesn't address MSLs personal life. But he does address the Olympic issue which was the catalyst for the trade. People can act like MSL had wanted to be here for his family for awhile, but facts is he had a chance to sign here and didn't. He could have asked for a trade and only did so after the OLY snub. Now we have no idea if MSL would have asked to be traded anyway, but his behavior and all the available information suggest he would not have.

If other information becomes public, then we can make a more informed decision.

Personally, I don't think MSL regrets it, but the author has the right to write his opinion, he's paid to do that. And we all do the same thing every July 1st, so why is he the only idiot, moron, clown, etc?

G1000
11-21-2014, 08:52 AM
I already addressed this, but I'll do it one more time.

I agree with Proteau that Tampa is a team on the upswing and over the next 2 years can be better than the Rangers based on the age of their talent and their cap flexibility.

Anyone who thinks Proteau makes this statement based on 1/4 season didn't read the article and have a short memory because TB had 101 points last year, more than we did. Not that its the end all be all, but it's relevant. We were healthy throughout the playoffs, they lost their goalie, so comparing how far each team went as a metric for who's better is moot. What happened in 2010 is moot. The author is talking about moving forward.

Again, the author never said that he thinks or knows MSL regrets this decision. No one does, except for MSL. Calling a decision regrettable is not the same as saying MSL regrets it, or isn't happy here.

You're right in saying that the author doesn't address MSLs personal life. But he does address the Olympic issue which was the catalyst for the trade. People can act like MSL had wanted to be here for his family for awhile, but facts is he had a chance to sign here and didn't. He could have asked for a trade and only did so after the OLY snub. Now we have no idea if MSL would have asked to be traded anyway, but his behavior and all the available information suggest he would not have.

If other information becomes public, then we can make a more informed decision.

Personally, I don't think MSL regrets it, but the author has the right to write his opinion, he's paid to do that. And we all do the same thing every July 1st, so why is he the only idiot, moron, clown, etc?

We're not paid to pundit hockey - so at least we can answer that one.

Pete
11-21-2014, 08:53 AM
[/b]

We're not paid to pundit hockey - so at least we can answer that one.

Yea but wouldn't it be great if we were?

Slobberknocker
11-21-2014, 10:28 AM
I dont think he regrets leaving Tbay one bit. I think he felt he had a good shot at getting a cup with us (almost succeeded) he also got to come home and enjoy his kids. (how many years has he been on the road now?)
not just professional either as i'm sure he did a fair share of travel hockey back in his youth.

Without him last year, no way we come back against Pittsburgh (no offense to Hank)

He's a good vet presence on our team and has been seen vocally mentoring the young guys were bringing along.

I would never have paid Cally the money he's getting in Tampa.

put me down for being happy MSL is here. Guys a class act and widely respected amongst his peers.

NYR2711
11-21-2014, 10:33 AM
I already addressed this, but I'll do it one more time.

I agree with Proteau that Tampa is a team on the upswing and over the next 2 years can be better than the Rangers based on the age of their talent and their cap flexibility.

Anyone who thinks Proteau makes this statement based on 1/4 season didn't read the article and have a short memory because TB had 101 points last year, more than we did. Not that its the end all be all, but it's relevant. We were healthy throughout the playoffs, they lost their goalie, so comparing how far each team went as a metric for who's better is moot. What happened in 2010 is moot. The author is talking about moving forward.

Again, the author never said that he thinks or knows MSL regrets this decision. No one does, except for MSL. Calling a decision regrettable is not the same as saying MSL regrets it, or isn't happy here.

You're right in saying that the author doesn't address MSLs personal life. But he does address the Olympic issue which was the catalyst for the trade. People can act like MSL had wanted to be here for his family for awhile, but facts is he had a chance to sign here and didn't. He could have asked for a trade and only did so after the OLY snub. Now we have no idea if MSL would have asked to be traded anyway, but his behavior and all the available information suggest he would not have.

If other information becomes public, then we can make a more informed decision.

Personally, I don't think MSL regrets it, but the author has the right to write his opinion, he's paid to do that. And we all do the same thing every July 1st, so why is he the only idiot, moron, clown, etc?

I agree with you 100% that Tampa is a better team going into the future than the Rangers, and right now they are playing better as a team, and have better prospects than we do. The future for the Rangers isn't bright, and that is something that has bothered me for a while and worries me for the future of this team.

The problem I have is his speculation about MSL making a mistake. He isn't taking into account that Tampa may not be what they are right now if MSL stayed and this trade never happened. Tampa has Cally because of MSL wanting out, and honestly, who knows if Boyle and Stralman would be there if Cally didn't go there. He also only mentions part of MSL's personal reasons for wanting out (yes I know its ben beaten down enough in here), but if he is bringing up part of it in his Olympic snub, then at least also put in his family issue for wanting to come here. I just don't like how the author cherry picked things and left other items out. Its like here, when someone posts something and only gives half the facts and leaves out pertinent things, they get called out on it, and thats basically what we are doing here to him. He left out a lot of pertinent things in his article on purpose.

Future
11-21-2014, 10:36 AM
Agree with all of that except for maybe the fact that the Rangers don't have a bright future.

NYR2711
11-21-2014, 10:40 AM
Agree with all of that except for maybe the fact that the Rangers don't have a bright future.

Who do we have to look forward to? I only see Duclair, Nieves and Skjei as anyone that could be considered good prospects.

Pete
11-21-2014, 10:56 AM
I agree with you 100% that Tampa is a better team going into the future than the Rangers, and right now they are playing better as a team, and have better prospects than we do. The future for the Rangers isn't bright, and that is something that has bothered me for a while and worries me for the future of this team.

The problem I have is his speculation about MSL making a mistake. He isn't taking into account that Tampa may not be what they are right now if MSL stayed and this trade never happened. Tampa has Cally because of MSL wanting out, and honestly, who knows if Boyle and Stralman would be there if Cally didn't go there. He also only mentions part of MSL's personal reasons for wanting out (yes I know its ben beaten down enough in here), but if he is bringing up part of it in his Olympic snub, then at least also put in his family issue for wanting to come here. I just don't like how the author cherry picked things and left other items out. Its like here, when someone posts something and only gives half the facts and leaves out pertinent things, they get called out on it, and thats basically what we are doing here to him. He left out a lot of pertinent things in his article on purpose.It's not speculation. It's just his opinion.

Otherwise, I see where you're coming from and don't really disagree.

NYR2711
11-21-2014, 11:05 AM
It's not speculation. It's just his opinion.

Otherwise, I see where you're coming from and don't really disagree.

We know its his opinion, but he isn't saying in my opinion Marty made a mistake in leaving, he is saying Marty made a mistake in leaving, thats two different things. Like you said, we have to go by what he is saying, not reading more into it or assuming its his opinion. I am with you and get and respect what you are saying, this is just how I take the article.

Pete
11-21-2014, 11:22 AM
We know its his opinion, but he isn't saying in my opinion Marty made a mistake in leaving, he is saying Marty made a mistake in leaving, thats two different things. Like you said, we have to go by what he is saying, not reading more into it or assuming its his opinion. I am with you and get and respect what you are saying, this is just how I take the article.This is inaccurate, it's not two different things. He's an opinion columnist, and this is his blog. Everything written should be taken as his opinion unless otherwise noted.

How can this sentence: "I’m pretty confident in saying this: St-Louis made a huge mistake." Be taken as anything other than his opinion?

Had he said "I’m pretty confident in saying this: St-Louis knows he made a huge mistake.", then yea, I can see the outrage.

Future
11-21-2014, 11:23 AM
Who do we have to look forward to? I only see Duclair, Nieves and Skjei as anyone that could be considered good prospects.
Our pipeline might not be super deep...but Buchnevich is a legit prospect as well and I still really like MIller.

My point is more to the fact that the current NHL roster is still pretty young, other than MSL, the roster isn't really that old. Brassard, Steps, Kreider, Duke, Hayes, Hags, Fast, Zucc are all 26 or under I think. You're looking at a bunch of guys who can grow individually and together over the next 4 years or so, and I think that means just as much as having a bunch of prospects.

Pete
11-21-2014, 11:28 AM
Our pipeline might not be super deep...but Buchnevich is a legit prospect as well and I still really like MIller.

My point is more to the fact that the current NHL roster is still pretty young, other than MSL, the roster isn't really that old. Brassard, Steps, Kreider, Duke, Hayes, Hags, Fast, Zucc are all 26 or under I think. You're looking at a bunch of guys who can grow individually and together over the next 4 years or so, and I think that means just as much as having a bunch of prospects.

Rangers best player is 31, their next best is 39, and their goalie is 33. TB's best player is the best pure goal scorer in the game (arguably), is 24 and their next best players are all under 24. Their goalie is 27 and hasn't even hit prime.

Their support cast is littered with older players, sure. Their youth is younger and more impressive with Johnson, Palat, Kucherov, Drouin, Namestnikov. We have 2 prospects with top-end skill but no telling where that nets out (Duclair, Buchnevich).

Phil in Absentia
11-21-2014, 11:31 AM
Rangers best player is 31, their next best is 39, and their goalie is 33. TB's best player is the best pure goal scorer in the game (arguably), is 24 and their next best players are all under 24. Their goalie is 27 and hasn't even hit prime.

Their support cast is littered with older players, sure. Their youth is younger and more impressive with Johnson, Palat, Kucherov, Drouin, Namestnikov. We have 2 prospects with top-end skill but no telling where that nets out (Duclair, Buchnevich).

And have given up three consecutive first-round draft picks for the shot at glory, so the hope of grabbing even one more impact, skilled player (who almost always go in the first round) is slim to none before next years' draft (assuming they don't deal that pick too).

Future
11-21-2014, 11:59 AM
Rangers best player is 31, their next best is 39, and their goalie is 33. TB's best player is the best pure goal scorer in the game (arguably), is 24 and their next best players are all under 24. Their goalie is 27 and hasn't even hit prime.

Their support cast is littered with older players, sure. Their youth is younger and more impressive with Johnson, Palat, Kucherov, Drouin, Namestnikov. We have 2 prospects with top-end skill but no telling where that nets out (Duclair, Buchnevich).
The Rangers' best player is 25...

Pete
11-21-2014, 12:02 PM
The Rangers' best player is 25...

I'm not going to waste time with that debate. Nash is 31 and MSL is 39. Lundqvist is 33. McDonagh isn't taking this team on his back alone, the way Nash can.

NYR2711
11-21-2014, 01:36 PM
This is inaccurate, it's not two different things. He's an opinion columnist, and this is his blog. Everything written should be taken as his opinion unless otherwise noted.

How can this sentence: "I’m pretty confident in saying this: St-Louis made a huge mistake." Be taken as anything other than his opinion?

Had he said "I’m pretty confident in saying this: St-Louis knows he made a huge mistake.", then yea, I can see the outrage.

The problem is that he is in one of the top NHL/Hockey magazines/newspapers out there. While me and you know what kind of writer he is, that doesn't mean everyone else does that reads THN. When the basic hockey fan reads something like this:


But it’s more than just the presence of Stamkos that makes St-Louis’ decision to leave Tampa Bay a regrettable one.

or


St-Louis has had a Hall-of-Fame worthy career, but even Hall-of-Famers make mistakes. And thus far, his choice to leave Stamkos & Co. behind looks to be the worst move he could’ve made.

Do you really get that it is his opinion? That last quote is how he ends the article, what fact does he have to say this? Does he know for sure that there were no issues between MSL and anyone in the front end or ownership? Its pure speculation, and saying that he is pretty confident in saying MSL made a huge mistake sounds like he has an inside on something. Like I said, we know who Adam is, but not everyone does, and this can very easily be taken as a story written as fact because no where does it say this is his opinion.

NYR2711
11-21-2014, 01:40 PM
Our pipeline might not be super deep...but Buchnevich is a legit prospect as well and I still really like MIller.

My point is more to the fact that the current NHL roster is still pretty young, other than MSL, the roster isn't really that old. Brassard, Steps, Kreider, Duke, Hayes, Hags, Fast, Zucc are all 26 or under I think. You're looking at a bunch of guys who can grow individually and together over the next 4 years or so, and I think that means just as much as having a bunch of prospects.

Miller really hasn't made the jump we all expected of him by now, and IMO, it doesn't seem like he fits into this team, at least from the coaches stand point. We wont be able to keep all of these guys with Step, Krieder, Hags and Zucc all due new contracts over the next 2 seasons. We have no one in our system to replace any of them.

Dunny
11-21-2014, 01:54 PM
I wouldn't trade Duclair for Drouin.

Much of Tampa's sucess is built on guys like Filpulla who have little track record. Even Kucherov. He's been good for 2 weeks. It's wrong to draw broad conclusions from that. That's why Proteau is a Garbage Clown.

Yes, Hedman is very good, and Carle and Stralman are solid vets, but past those three is the same tire fire you see almost everywhere else. This is why they look so good one night, and then go and get badly out played the next two.

They're a good team with a good goalie who's forwards are younger than many teams. That's really all you can say at this point.

Pete
11-21-2014, 01:56 PM
The problem is that he is in one of the top NHL/Hockey magazines/newspapers out there. While me and you know what kind of writer he is, that doesn't mean everyone else does that reads THN. When the basic hockey fan reads something like this:



or



Do you really get that it is his opinion? That last quote is how he ends the article, what fact does he have to say this? Does he know for sure that there were no issues between MSL and anyone in the front end or ownership? Its pure speculation, and saying that he is pretty confident in saying MSL made a huge mistake sounds like he has an inside on something. Like I said, we know who Adam is, but not everyone does, and this can very easily be taken as a story written as fact because no where does it say this is his opinion.
Then that's their fault. Not his. You know how you know that it's his opinion? 2 reasons.

1. No quotes from anyone.
2. The URL. thehockeynews.com/blog/when-he-left-the-lightning-for-the-rangers-martin-st-louis-made-a-huge-mistake/

NYR2711
11-21-2014, 02:10 PM
Then that's their fault. Not his. You know how you know that it's his opinion? 2 reasons.

1. No quotes from anyone.
2. The URL. thehockeynews.com/blog/when-he-left-the-lightning-for-the-rangers-martin-st-louis-made-a-huge-mistake/

I don't take blog as an opinion though whenever I read one. Lots of beat writers have blogs that mention fact. Plus, like I said, its The Hockey News, something thats known for factual reporting. No quotes also doesn't mean its an opinion. I have read many reports on teams and players that have no quotes.

Future
11-21-2014, 02:12 PM
I'm not going to waste time with that debate. Nash is 31 and MSL is 39. Lundqvist is 33. McDonagh isn't taking this team on his back alone, the way Nash can.
Nash - nor pretty much any other player in the league - can carry a team on their own.

Miller really hasn't made the jump we all expected of him by now, and IMO, it doesn't seem like he fits into this team, at least from the coaches stand point. We wont be able to keep all of these guys with Step, Krieder, Hags and Zucc all due new contracts over the next 2 seasons. We have no one in our system to replace any of them.
We aren't going to lose more than one of them.

Keirik
11-21-2014, 02:14 PM
Doesn't Stamkos go into the final year of a very underpaid contract next year? I don't think they have a ton of contracts coming off the books either. Something to think about.

Pete
11-21-2014, 02:15 PM
I don't take blog as an opinion though whenever I read one. Lots of beat writers have blogs that mention fact. Plus, like I said, its The Hockey News, something thats known for factual reporting. No quotes also doesn't mean its an opinion. I have read many reports on teams and players that have no quotes.

Sorry, I don't agree at all. Very easy to tell the difference between fact and opinion pieces.

Pete
11-21-2014, 02:17 PM
Nash - nor pretty much any other player in the league - can carry a team on their own.
Really not relevant. You're going off on a tangent.

NYR2711
11-21-2014, 02:19 PM
Nash - nor pretty much any other player in the league - can carry a team on their own.

We aren't going to lose more than one of them.

How do you know this? Zucc, Step and Hags are each up fr new contracts, along with Staal at the same time. Rumor is that the cap isn't going to rise next season. All are up for significant raises, and our cap is at the ceiling now. How do we fit them in?

Future
11-21-2014, 02:34 PM
Really not relevant. You're going off on a tangent.
You brought it up lol

Pete
11-21-2014, 02:39 PM
You brought it up lol

I didn't bring up the debate of who the Ranger's best player is.

Future
11-21-2014, 02:44 PM
How do you know this? Zucc, Step and Hags are each up fr new contracts, along with Staal at the same time. Rumor is that the cap isn't going to rise next season. All are up for significant raises, and our cap is at the ceiling now. How do we fit them in?
I don't think we're in as much trouble as others do regarding the cap. You could sign Staal and Stepan each for 6.5, Zucc for 4, Hags for 2.5, and MSL at 3 and be just under if that cap doesn't go up at all. That's not totally realistic b/c it would be so close, but I think the cap will go up at least a tad.

You could not resign Hags and move Klein to save just over 5 mil. The nature of the cap era is that you're going to lose players every year. A 3rd line winger and your #5 defenseman is pretty tolerable, imo.

Future
11-21-2014, 02:47 PM
I didn't bring up the debate of who the Ranger's best player is.
Neither did I...

Pete
11-21-2014, 02:48 PM
I don't think we're in as much trouble as others do regarding the cap. You could sign Staal and Stepan each for 6.5, Zucc for 4, Hags for 2.5, and MSL at 3 and be just under if that cap doesn't go up at all. That's not totally realistic b/c it would be so close, but I think the cap will go up at least a tad.

You could not resign Hags and move Klein to save just over 5 mil. The nature of the cap era is that you're going to lose players every year. A 3rd line winger and your #5 defenseman is pretty tolerable, imo.

You think Hagelin is going to get a $250k raise, and you'd move the only bottom 6 winger with a clue? To move Klein you are taking money back, without question, and you still have to pay a guy to be your #5.

Future
11-21-2014, 02:55 PM
You think Hagelin is going to get a $250k raise, and you'd move the only bottom 6 winger with a clue? To move Klein you are taking money back, without question, and you still have to pay a guy to be your #5.
You like Hags a lot more than I do. I wouldn't give him much more than he's getting now. I don't think we'd necessarily be taking money back, teams near the cap floor would gladly pay $3M for him I think. A team like Pitt should love a guy like Klein, considering the fact that Martin and Erhoff - who both make more than Klein - will be FAs.

NYR2711
11-21-2014, 03:07 PM
You like Hags a lot more than I do. I wouldn't give him much more than he's getting now. I don't think we'd necessarily be taking money back, teams near the cap floor would gladly pay $3M for him I think. A team like Pitt should love a guy like Klein, considering the fact that Martin and Erhoff - who both make more than Klein - will be FAs.

This is nt how free agency works though. He is getting at least $3.5M, and he has been better than Zucc has so far this season. Zucc is also getting more than a 500K raise, your looking at possibly $4.5M. You also have Talbot who will get a raise. We have $45M next year with 10 contracts up or to be replaced. Its going to be extremely tight. I don't see MSL taking less than $4M either a year, and then you have bonus'. Its not as easy as you think.

Future
11-21-2014, 03:20 PM
This is nt how free agency works though. He is getting at least $3.5M, and he has been better than Zucc has so far this season. Zucc is also getting more than a 500K raise, your looking at possibly $4.5M. You also have Talbot who will get a raise. We have $45M next year with 10 contracts up or to be replaced. Its going to be extremely tight. I don't see MSL taking less than $4M either a year, and then you have bonus'. Its not as easy as you think.
It's easier for me b/c I don't mind losing Hags and Talbot. Zucc already said he'd take a team-friendly deal. MSL said he'd only play here, and he's going to be 40 years old. He won't get 4.

And I just don't see the $3.5 for Hags I guess unless a team is going to give him a bigger role...and I wouldn't do that for a guy who is going to give you 35 points, give or take. From just a statistics standpoint, he's Mark Letestu who only makse $1.3. Mike Zibenejad is on his ELC I think, but makes less than a million. Alex Chiasson is close in age and stats, and only makes $900k. In general, the guys around Hags' production (Zibenajad, Nichushkin) are either super young or veteran 3/4th liners (Stempniak, Letestu).

I'd give Hags double those guys b/c of the intangibles and PK that he brings, but $3.5?

Pete
11-21-2014, 03:23 PM
You like Hags a lot more than I do. I wouldn't give him much more than he's getting now. I don't think we'd necessarily be taking money back, teams near the cap floor would gladly pay $3M for him I think. A team like Pitt should love a guy like Klein, considering the fact that Martin and Erhoff - who both make more than Klein - will be FAs.But you still have to pay to fill Klein's role. Who's doing that?

And it's really not a matter of me liking Hagelin. I believe the team wants to keep him, and he's probably looking at something close to $4 x 3.


It's easier for me b/c I don't mind losing Hags and Talbot. Zucc already said he'd take a team-friendly deal.

Yea, the one he just signed was team friendly.

Future
11-21-2014, 03:32 PM
But you still have to pay to fill Klein's role. Who's doing that?

And it's really not a matter of me liking Hagelin. I believe the team wants to keep him, and he's probably looking at something close to $4 x 3.


Yea, the one he just signed was team friendly.

I don't see how Hags gets $4m. He's not worth that. The guys making 4 are either more productive than Hags (Pacioretty, Spezza, Dupuis) or way overpaid (Cole, Briere, Jones, Stafford). Hags is unique in what he brings to the table, so it's hard to make an apples to apples comparison, but I certainly don't think he's worth what that first group makes, and I don't want to lump him into the second.
I'd just let the young guys play to fill Klein - or rather Boyle since I'd prefer to get rid of him than Klein - and Hags' spots. If they can't hack it, this team is in trouble...but that's a different argument. I don't see

Pete
11-21-2014, 03:39 PM
I don't see how Hags gets $4m. He's not worth that. The guys making 4 are either more productive than Hags (Pacioretty, Spezza, Dupuis) or way overpaid (Cole, Briere, Jones, Stafford). Hags is unique in what he brings to the table, so it's hard to make an apples to apples comparison, but I certainly don't think he's worth what that first group makes, and I don't want to lump him into the second.
I'd just let the young guys play to fill Klein - or rather Boyle since I'd prefer to get rid of him than Klein - and Hags' spots. If they can't hack it, this team is in trouble...but that's a different argument. I don't seeSpezza cap hit is 7, he just signed for 7.5. Pacioretty and Dupuis are outliers who signed team friendly deals.

If Callahan got $4+ in his 3rd deal that many years ago, I'm pretty confident that Hags is getting that.

We are going off on a tangent though, because you're trying to argue that you don't see how Tampa is heading up and we are heading down, but the moves you're discussing just to get under cap weaken our team, i.e. letting a young guy play for Klein, hurting our bottom 6 and PK even further by moving Hagelin, etc.

Future
11-21-2014, 03:56 PM
Spezza cap hit is 7, he just signed for 7.5. Pacioretty and Dupuis are outliers who signed team friendly deals.

If Callahan got $4+ in his 3rd deal that many years ago, I'm pretty confident that Hags is getting that.

We are going off on a tangent though, because you're trying to argue that you don't see how Tampa is heading up and we are heading down, but the moves you're discussing just to get under cap weaken our team, i.e. letting a young guy play for Klein, hurting our bottom 6 and PK even further by moving Hagelin, etc.
lol yea, its a super tangent but whatever.

Didn't Cally score 29 goals the year before he signed that though? Hags has never had more than 17

But we're saying Tampa is heading up IF they're young guys are able to develop and prove to help the Lightning be contenders. Everyone's just assuming that they will be. Why do the Rangers young guys not get the same benefit of the doubt. IF Fast does the same thing as Hags and Allen can be a #5, there isn't that much of a difference.

Slobberknocker
11-21-2014, 04:09 PM
your opinion might be that Tampa's stock is on the rise but until they actually do something its sort of a moot point.

Pete
11-21-2014, 04:19 PM
lol yea, its a super tangent but whatever.

Didn't Cally score 29 goals the year before he signed that though? Hags has never had more than 17

But we're saying Tampa is heading up IF they're young guys are able to develop and prove to help the Lightning be contenders. Everyone's just assuming that they will be. Why do the Rangers young guys not get the same benefit of the doubt. IF Fast does the same thing as Hags and Allen can be a #5, there isn't that much of a difference.
your opinion might be that Tampa's stock is on the rise but until they actually do something its sort of a moot point.



Well really, Tampa's already here. Kucherov, Namestnikov and Drouin getting better just makes them even better. We are talking about a team that had 101 points last year, and 2nd in the EC so far this year.

Future
11-21-2014, 04:25 PM
Well really, Tampa's already here. Kucherov, Namestnikov and Drouin getting better just makes them even better. We are talking about a team that had 101 points last year, and 2nd in the EC so far this year.
But we're also talking about a team that got handled in the first round of the playoffs (yes I know Bishop got hurt...) vs. a team that went to the SCF. I think you've been pretty adamant that players are judged more for their performance in the playoffs than the regular season, why does that not apply to whole teams?

And why can't Duclair, Kreider, Hayes, Fast...heck even Steps and Mac get any better? How can we say that Miller, Allen and McIlrath are never going to contribute? I just don't get why TBs young guys get credit for potential but the Rangers' don't.

Dunny
11-21-2014, 04:25 PM
Namestnikov and Drouin barely get 10 minutes a night.

Pete
11-21-2014, 04:29 PM
Namestnikov and Drouin barely get 10 minutes a night.Drouin's getting 13:30 average, but has been getting less recently and Namestnikov just under 13. Don't really get what their ice time has to do with it, given their age.

Look who they are playing behind. Drouin is 19 and Namestnikov is 21. Plus their 2 Calder candidates. Their youth > Our Youth. And it's not even close, and their youth is here.

Pete
11-21-2014, 04:35 PM
But we're also talking about a team that got handled in the first round of the playoffs (yes I know Bishop got hurt...) vs. a team that went to the SCF. I think you've been pretty adamant that players are judged more for their performance in the playoffs than the regular season, why does that not apply to whole teams?

And why can't Duclair, Kreider, Hayes, Fast...heck even Steps and Mac get any better? How can we say that Miller, Allen and McIlrath are never going to contribute? I just don't get why TBs young guys get credit for potential but the Rangers' don't.Because Tampa's young guys are already doing it. You're talking wishful thinking and "maybe" over guys doing it now.

Tampa didn't even have a chance to get their feet wet in the playoffs. I'm not going to judge a whole team who's starter was hurt. That's ridiculous. I said the same thing about Montreal when someone tried to say they weren't as good as us (forgot who said it, and guess who's 1st in the EC right now? Most points in the NHL?)

You're trying to make an argument that doesn't make sense. You're saying that TB currently is not better than we are, even though they are playing better, are statistically better, and better in the standings, because we went the the SCF 5 months ago? Your benchmarks are all over the place.

Currently, right now, they are better. Add to the fact that their young talent is also, right now, better. Their prospect pool is projected to be deeper. But you are arguing that because we went to the SCF 5 months ago with a vastly different team, then they are not better? Do you see why I'm having trouble here?

Slobberknocker
11-21-2014, 04:52 PM
Well really, Tampa's already here. Kucherov, Namestnikov and Drouin getting better just makes them even better. We are talking about a team that had 101 points last year, and 2nd in the EC so far this year.

And a team that's won nothing so far...

Pete
11-21-2014, 04:53 PM
And a team that's won nothing so far...That's such a cop out argument... And neither have the Rangers. "This" team didn't go the SCF. That team is gone. Don't confuse that.

Future
11-21-2014, 05:00 PM
Because Tampa's young guys are already doing it. You're talking wishful thinking and "maybe" over guys doing it now.

Tampa didn't even have a chance to get their feet wet in the playoffs. I'm not going to judge a whole team who's starter was hurt. That's ridiculous. I said the same thing about Montreal when someone tried to say they weren't as good as us (forgot who said it, and guess who's 1st in the EC right now? Most points in the NHL?)

You're trying to make an argument that doesn't make sense. You're saying that TB currently is not better than we are, even though they are playing better, are statistically better, and better in the standings, because we went the the SCF 5 months ago? Your benchmarks are all over the place.

Currently, right now, they are better. Add to the fact that their young talent is also, right now, better. Their prospect pool is projected to be deeper. But you are arguing that because we went to the SCF 5 months ago with a vastly different team, then they are not better? Do you see why I'm having trouble here?
I didn't say they aren't better right now. I said there is nothing to suggest that their future is better b/c they haven't proven anything in the postseason. Until they actually do, everything is just speculative. I don't buy the "Tampa's young guys are already doing it." They haven't done anything.

What are Tampa's young guys doing exactly that ours aren't? They have a handful more assists than Hayes and Duclair? But both are - while Hayes and Duke are both +. Do we know that Radko Gudas is going to be a great defenseman? Is Bishop actually the answer long term b/c he's had one good season? You know who else had a great season at age 27? Mike Dunham.

Do I think TB is good, and is going to continue to be good? Sure. But there is nothing to say that they are going to be this juggernaut who is head and shoulders above the Rangers for the next 5-6, however many years.

Pete
11-21-2014, 05:08 PM
I didn't say they aren't better right now. I said there is nothing to suggest that their future is better b/c they haven't proven anything in the postseason. Until they actually do, everything is just speculative. I don't buy the "Tampa's young guys are already doing it." They haven't done anything.That's just inaccurate. They had phenomenal rookie seasons. The "they didn't do it in the playoffs" argument is tired and irrelevant. THe Rangers, as currently constructed, have done nothing in the playoffs.


What are Tampa's young guys doing exactly that ours aren't? They have a handful more assists than Hayes and Duclair? But both are - while Hayes and Duke are both +. Do we know that Radko Gudas is going to be a great defenseman? Is Bishop actually the answer long term b/c he's had one good season? You know who else had a great season at age 27? Mike Dunham.Yea, the Dunham thing is totally irrelevant and not worth going into.

What are Tampa's young guys doing? I almost have to think you're trolling. Johnson is a 2nd year player with 21 points in 21 games. Hayes has 5 points. This can't be a serious discussion. Palat has 15 points...Duclair isn't a regular player. Kucherov has 18 points. How is this even a discussion? Who even cares about +/-?


Do I think TB is good, and is going to continue to be good? Sure. But there is nothing to say that they are going to be this juggernaut who is head and shoulders above the Rangers for the next 5-6, however many years.Nothing except all the evidence in front of you....And it doesn't matter about 5-6 years, don't know why you keep going there. MSL is playing probably 2 more years. Maybe 3.

Slobberknocker
11-22-2014, 10:49 AM
That's such a cop out argument... And neither have the Rangers. "This" team didn't go the SCF. That team is gone. Don't confuse that.

and the 2014/2015 Tampa team has won nothing either.

*shrugs*

I dont cop out....

Dunny
11-22-2014, 10:52 AM
Drouin Isn't a Calder candidate. He's barely surviving.

Pete
11-22-2014, 10:53 AM
and the 2014/2015 Tampa team has won nothing either.

*shrugs*

I dont cop out....

Of course its a cop out. And on top of it, has no bearing on the discussion.

Slobberknocker
11-22-2014, 11:57 AM
im done with this thread. you should go root for tampa. seems you've picked up the torch for them and have flamed everyone in this thread whose had a different opinion from yours.

Pete
11-22-2014, 12:17 PM
im done with this thread. you should go root for tampa. seems you've picked up the torch for them and have flamed everyone in this thread whose had a different opinion from yours.

I've had rational discussions with quite a few people. Your argument is simply irrelevant. The argument that "they haven't won anything" has nothing to do with the points made in the article.

I'm sorry it bothers you that Tampa has a good team and we are struggling and have mortgaged the future. Blame Glen not me.

Dunny
11-22-2014, 12:25 PM
Major League II - Winning Streak: http://youtu.be/MLCLMEYp9s0

Respecttheblue
11-22-2014, 12:42 PM
and the 2014/2015 Tampa team has won nothing either.

[note: FTR , started this response earlier this morning before other replies just above.]

This is true Slobber, and until they do, IMO, Marty is looking justified.

MSL went to the SCF ... NO TEAM, NO ONE gets a guaranteed ticket there, not even the great Chicago and Brad Richards.

Just that he even got a chance to play in the SCF means he got a partial payoff on what he was looking for. If Rick Nash had been this early season's Rick Nash, there might even have been some silverware involved.

Now, all bets are off. New season, new personnel, and like any other potential contender, maybe a chance ... which is better than 40-50% of the league who have little to no chance at all.
For all we know it might even be a better chance, or a worse chance. Injuries, luck and chemistry are all major outcome wild cards.

Let's see if Tampa fulfills on its promise, and whether they remain healthy.

Food for thought only, but ... :
Maybe he gets and easy $2.5 - 3.5 million elsewhere, but B-Ritchie takes only $1 million in salary to play for Chicago, for the best chance he thinks he can get ( no longer eligible to play for NYR;) after amnesty ). He's not doing it for the money only ... taking less money gives Chicago the ability to keep mo' bettah players, and should give them a better chance to win.

Here, meanwhile, MSL creates for both himself and the team, a $5.625 mil cap hit. This is the equal-highest cap hit in the last eight years of his distinguished career, even though he's 39.
He knowingly comes to a team with a goalie who has just about maxxed out the team's ability to pay him (and arguable too much), and a fragile superstar, Nash, who's earning a non-fragile Superstar salary, not to mention other salary cap issues.

Several of our players could consider looking around the league at some of the teams where some players have taken a bit less to give their team a chance to hire and retain a more competitive lineup. They don't have to, of course, and maybe there's a strong case to be made that it's the team's salary management and fiscal responsibility problem, not theirs.

Of course, a deflection here, a pipe there, a shot into the goalie's chest there, and the almost-unexpectedly contending Rangers of 2013-4 could have been hoisting the SCF.

A lot of players say New York is a first class, great experience for a player, and brings with it the side benefit of playing for an orig-6 team. Others shy away from the pressure. I'd say on aggregate MSL has not been cheated, but this group makes its own salary cap bed and has to lay in it. The stakes are higher, the pressure's higher, and the pay that comes with it is higher -- and if they win here, well if you were lucky enough to be around for 1994, you'll know that that's about as high a high* as you will get in this game.

* Though I think Toronto would explode their own minds and Montreal would have one big collective orgasm, but that's another concept for another thread.

Mike
11-22-2014, 02:53 PM
I don't even think the comparison of youth in both organizations are even close. People throwing names around like Allen, McIlrath, Miller, Fast, Duclair, and Hayes aren't paying attention much, because when push comes to shove for a playoff push, at least 2, maybe even 3 of those above names will be thrown into trades to improve the current roster, while TB won't be trading any of their youth.

Ranger Lothbrok
11-22-2014, 03:10 PM
[note: FTR , started this response earlier this morning before other replies just above.]

This is true Slobber, and until they do, IMO, Marty is looking justified.

MSL went to the SCF ... NO TEAM, NO ONE gets a guaranteed ticket there, not even the great Chicago and Brad Richards.

Just that he even got a chance to play in the SCF means he got a partial payoff on what he was looking for. If Rick Nash had been this early season's Rick Nash, there might even have been some silverware involved.

Now, all bets are off. New season, new personnel, and like any other potential contender, maybe a chance ... which is better than 40-50% of the league who have little to no chance at all.
For all we know it might even be a better chance, or a worse chance. Injuries, luck and chemistry are all major outcome wild cards.

Let's see if Tampa fulfills on its promise, and whether they remain healthy.

Food for thought only, but ... :
Maybe he gets and easy $2.5 - 3.5 million elsewhere, but B-Ritchie takes only $1 million in salary to play for Chicago, for the best chance he thinks he can get ( no longer eligible to play for NYR;) after amnesty ). He's not doing it for the money only ... taking less money gives Chicago the ability to keep mo' bettah players, and should give them a better chance to win.

Here, meanwhile, MSL creates for both himself and the team, a $5.625 mil cap hit. This is the equal-highest cap hit in the last eight years of his distinguished career, even though he's 39.
He knowingly comes to a team with a goalie who has just about maxxed out the team's ability to pay him (and arguable too much), and a fragile superstar, Nash, who's earning a non-fragile Superstar salary, not to mention other salary cap issues.

Several of our players could consider looking around the league at some of the teams where some players have taken a bit less to give their team a chance to hire and retain a more competitive lineup. They don't have to, of course, and maybe there's a strong case to be made that it's the team's salary management and fiscal responsibility problem, not theirs.

Of course, a deflection here, a pipe there, a shot into the goalie's chest there, and the almost-unexpectedly contending Rangers of 2013-4 could have been hoisting the SCF.

A lot of players say New York is a first class, great experience for a player, and brings with it the side benefit of playing for an orig-6 team. Others shy away from the pressure. I'd say on aggregate MSL has not been cheated, but this group makes its own salary cap bed and has to lay in it. The stakes are higher, the pressure's higher, and the pay that comes with it is higher -- and if they win here, well if you were lucky enough to be around for 1994, you'll know that that's about as high a high* as you will get in this game.

* Though I think Toronto would explode their own minds and Montreal would have one big collective orgasm, but that's another concept for another thread.


Apparently I have to spread some reputation around before giving it to you again, but know that you were repped in spirit. The fact of the matter is that I don't think MSL regrets for a second his decision to come here. I mean, even though there was no Stanley Cup at the end of the rainbow, the spark he provided will forever be legendary. Hadn't we NEVER come back from down 3-1 in the playoffs? Hadn't Pittsburgh NEVER lost when leading 3-1 in the playoffs? Hadn't we never beaten Montreal in the Conference Finals? And the goal that moved us on to the SCF's? An OT goal, at MSG, sniped by none other than Martin St. Louis. That moment alone forever endeared him to the NY faithful, and I'm sure if asked he would confirm that it was a feeling second only to holding the Cup over his head in Tampa.

This, of course, is all from MSL's point of view. From an objective standpoint, the book is still out for obvious reasons. There's no question that Tampa is a team on a huge upswing. With Stamkos leading them, finally some good goaltending in Ben Bishop, a young and improving defense featuring such names as Sjustr and Hedman, and perhaps the most dynamic offensive prospect in the game in Drouin (in addition to other talent already named in this thread), the future is bright in Tampa. For the next few years they're going to be a force to be reckoned with.

That said, I'd argue that we are as well. Sure, a lot of luck went in to reaching the SCF's (as it always does), but there's more to the picture than matchup draws and emotional crucibles. The fact is that we had a terrific defense, arguably the best goaltender in the league, and an offense capable of producing at any moment from any line. We're feeling the keen sting right now of losing guys like Stralman and Boyle, but just because they're helping Tampa to a better record than us in the middle of November doesn't mean we're dead in the water. When Mac comes back, you're looking at McDonagh-Girardi, Boyle-Staal, Klein-Moore. That, to me, is still one of the best defenses you'll find in the league.

Additionally, the entire offense looks rejuvenated. Derick Brassard looks like a legit 1st or 2nd line center finally realizing his potential and playing with confidence. Chris Kreider is nabbing breakaways almost every game and making things happen in the offensive zone. It's only a matter of time before results start showing up on the stat sheet for him. Rick Nash looks every bit the superstar we traded for. Zook's game is rounding in to form, and we know what he can provide. Derek Stepan has 6 points in 7 games since he got back. Hayes and Duclair are terrific young talents that seemingly provide a spark every time they're out there. The lower lines, while by no means dominant, feature a solid amount of two-way talent with guys like Hagelin, Moore, Stempniak and Fast.

There's zero question that at this stage of the game, we look like a disjointed, Jekyll-and-Hyde, inconsistent mess. The defense has been running around like chickens with their heads cut off. But I've also seen brilliant stretches of play, both offensively and defensively. I've seen some keep-away games with the puck on the powerplay that I used to covet when I saw other teams doing it. We're constantly generating chances, and I haven't seen this level of offensive confidence from a Rangers team in a very long time. And yes, they DO have the talent to play that way and succeed.

With the massive amount of roster turnover, I for one believe that it's admirable they've performed as well as they have so far. Something to keep in mind: despite our "meh" start, we're only 6 points behind the feared and revered Bruins, who have also played two more games than us. If those two games are wins, that's only a two point difference between us and one of the best teams in the East. As far as I'm concerned, with all the injuries to our defense (Matt Hunwick and Mike Kostka should NEVER been full-time d-men for an NHL team), Henrik's inconsistent play to start the year (which bear in mind he had last season as well), and the tremendous roster turnover from last June, we're right where we're supposed to be. Don't forget the forced incorporation of several rookies in to the lineup, like Hayes/Duke/Fast.

This is a team still finding its legs, but I've seen enough from both the defense and the offense to convince me that when it all comes together, which I firmly believe it will, we will be consistently dangerous. And it's not as though our future is entirely shot either. People are painting it as if this roster is quickly trending toward irrelevancy in this league. Note, however, that 8 of our current 13 rostered forwards are 27 years old or younger. We have rookies still adjusting to the game, and considering the lack of first rounders in recent years, an admirable amount of young talent on the way. We may not have our own Jonathan Drouin, but Skjei/Buchnevich/Miller/Allen/Bodie/Haggerty/Lindberg all look like solid young players. Skjei and Buchnevich in particular are already being considered blue-chippers by experts.

So no, I don't think Marty made a mistake. Tampa may or may not be a better team in a few years than us, and sure: right now it's looking like an almost definite that they will be. But their success and ours aren't mutually exclusive. They may be sitting at the top of the Eastern Conference in two years for all we know, but if we're sitting 6-10 points back of them and drawing home ice in the playoffs, our chances at a championship are every bit as good as theirs. The fact is that Marty did something that hadn't been done in 20 years, and handed us our first piece of hardware in two decades. We hung a banner for the first time in a long time. And even though we came up short, you CANNOT discount the value of that experience for the younger players on the roster. They've all been there, and they know what it takes.

It's a process, with a tremendous learning curve right now, but in my opinion we're getting there. Let's see if it's a tremendous "mistake" in June. Calling it a mistake less than 1/4 in to the season, however, strikes me as a premature overreaction.

/end rant

Mike
11-22-2014, 03:29 PM
I'd rather talk to my wife for 2 hours than read that ^^

Dunny
11-22-2014, 03:31 PM
I'd rather talk to my wife for 2 hours than read that ^^

Bahahaha

Pete
11-22-2014, 04:31 PM
I tried to skim, got to the end, saw "1/4 way into the season", which was probably addressed 100 times already.

Respecttheblue
11-22-2014, 07:38 PM
Apparently I have to spread some reputation around before giving it to you again, but know that you were repped in spirit. The fact of the matter is that I don't think MSL regrets for a second his decision to come here. I mean, even though there was no Stanley Cup at the end of the rainbow, the spark he provided will forever be legendary. Hadn't we NEVER come back from down 3-1 in the playoffs? Hadn't Pittsburgh NEVER lost when leading 3-1 in the playoffs? Hadn't we never beaten Montreal in the Conference Finals? And the goal that moved us on to the SCF's? An OT goal, at MSG, sniped by none other than Martin St. Louis. That moment alone forever endeared him to the NY faithful, and I'm sure if asked he would confirm that it was a feeling second only to holding the Cup over his head in Tampa.

This, of course, is all from MSL's point of view. From an objective standpoint, the book is still out for obvious reasons. There's no question that Tampa is a team on a huge upswing. With Stamkos leading them, finally some good goaltending in Ben Bishop, a young and improving defense featuring such names as Sjustr and Hedman, and perhaps the most dynamic offensive prospect in the game in Drouin (in addition to other talent already named in this thread), the future is bright in Tampa. For the next few years they're going to be a force to be reckoned with.

That said, I'd argue that we are as well. Sure, a lot of luck went in to reaching the SCF's (as it always does), but there's more to the picture than matchup draws and emotional crucibles. The fact is that we had a terrific defense, arguably the best goaltender in the league, and an offense capable of producing at any moment from any line. We're feeling the keen sting right now of losing guys like Stralman and Boyle, but just because they're helping Tampa to a better record than us in the middle of November doesn't mean we're dead in the water. When Mac comes back, you're looking at McDonagh-Girardi, Boyle-Staal, Klein-Moore. That, to me, is still one of the best defenses you'll find in the league.

Additionally, the entire offense looks rejuvenated. Derick Brassard looks like a legit 1st or 2nd line center finally realizing his potential and playing with confidence. Chris Kreider is nabbing breakaways almost every game and making things happen in the offensive zone. It's only a matter of time before results start showing up on the stat sheet for him. Rick Nash looks every bit the superstar we traded for. Zook's game is rounding in to form, and we know what he can provide. Derek Stepan has 6 points in 7 games since he got back. Hayes and Duclair are terrific young talents that seemingly provide a spark every time they're out there. The lower lines, while by no means dominant, feature a solid amount of two-way talent with guys like Hagelin, Moore, Stempniak and Fast.

There's zero question that at this stage of the game, we look like a disjointed, Jekyll-and-Hyde, inconsistent mess. The defense has been running around like chickens with their heads cut off. But I've also seen brilliant stretches of play, both offensively and defensively. I've seen some keep-away games with the puck on the powerplay that I used to covet when I saw other teams doing it. We're constantly generating chances, and I haven't seen this level of offensive confidence from a Rangers team in a very long time. And yes, they DO have the talent to play that way and succeed.

With the massive amount of roster turnover, I for one believe that it's admirable they've performed as well as they have so far. Something to keep in mind: despite our "meh" start, we're only 6 points behind the feared and revered Bruins, who have also played two more games than us. If those two games are wins, that's only a two point difference between us and one of the best teams in the East. As far as I'm concerned, with all the injuries to our defense (Matt Hunwick and Mike Kostka should NEVER been full-time d-men for an NHL team), Henrik's inconsistent play to start the year (which bear in mind he had last season as well), and the tremendous roster turnover from last June, we're right where we're supposed to be. Don't forget the forced incorporation of several rookies in to the lineup, like Hayes/Duke/Fast.

This is a team still finding its legs, but I've seen enough from both the defense and the offense to convince me that when it all comes together, which I firmly believe it will, we will be consistently dangerous. And it's not as though our future is entirely shot either. People are painting it as if this roster is quickly trending toward irrelevancy in this league. Note, however, that 8 of our current 13 rostered forwards are 27 years old or younger. We have rookies still adjusting to the game, and considering the lack of first rounders in recent years, an admirable amount of young talent on the way. We may not have our own Jonathan Drouin, but Skjei/Buchnevich/Miller/Allen/Bodie/Haggerty/Lindberg all look like solid young players. Skjei and Buchnevich in particular are already being considered blue-chippers by experts.

So no, I don't think Marty made a mistake. Tampa may or may not be a better team in a few years than us, and sure: right now it's looking like an almost definite that they will be. But their success and ours aren't mutually exclusive. They may be sitting at the top of the Eastern Conference in two years for all we know, but if we're sitting 6-10 points back of them and drawing home ice in the playoffs, our chances at a championship are every bit as good as theirs. The fact is that Marty did something that hadn't been done in 20 years, and handed us our first piece of hardware in two decades. We hung a banner for the first time in a long time. And even though we came up short, you CANNOT discount the value of that experience for the younger players on the roster. They've all been there, and they know what it takes.

It's a process, with a tremendous learning curve right now, but in my opinion we're getting there. Let's see if it's a tremendous "mistake" in June. Calling it a mistake less than 1/4 in to the season, however, strikes me as a premature overreaction.

/end rant

:repped:

Great post. you gave voice to a lot of things join on in the recesses of the addled mind. That's not to say there aren't conflicts in there, due to the jeckyl-hyde goings on, but essentially, this^

We're almost so much on the same page, that we're almost wearing the same clothes; and people might say we should get a room...so I'm gonna stop right here.
:eek:

Mike
11-22-2014, 07:55 PM
What a surprise !! The 2 authors love each other !!

Vodka Drunkenski
11-22-2014, 08:03 PM
I think if you combined my last 100 posts, they wouldn't be as long as either of those posts.

lefty9
11-23-2014, 12:21 AM
oh boy ,this thread getting crazier byeach post,good night,:z: after reading all these posts

momentum
11-23-2014, 10:23 AM
[note: FTR , started this response earlier this morning before other replies just above.]

This is true Slobber, and until they do, IMO, Marty is looking justified.

MSL went to the SCF ... NO TEAM, NO ONE gets a guaranteed ticket there, not even the great Chicago and Brad Richards.

Just that he even got a chance to play in the SCF means he got a partial payoff on what he was looking for. If Rick Nash had been this early season's Rick Nash, there might even have been some silverware involved.

Now, all bets are off. New season, new personnel, and like any other potential contender, maybe a chance ... which is better than 40-50% of the league who have little to no chance at all.
For all we know it might even be a better chance, or a worse chance. Injuries, luck and chemistry are all major outcome wild cards.

Let's see if Tampa fulfills on its promise, and whether they remain healthy.

Food for thought only, but ... :
Maybe he gets and easy $2.5 - 3.5 million elsewhere, but B-Ritchie takes only $1 million in salary to play for Chicago, for the best chance he thinks he can get ( no longer eligible to play for NYR;) after amnesty ). He's not doing it for the money only ... taking less money gives Chicago the ability to keep mo' bettah players, and should give them a better chance to win.

Here, meanwhile, MSL creates for both himself and the team, a $5.625 mil cap hit. This is the equal-highest cap hit in the last eight years of his distinguished career, even though he's 39.
He knowingly comes to a team with a goalie who has just about maxxed out the team's ability to pay him (and arguable too much), and a fragile superstar, Nash, who's earning a non-fragile Superstar salary, not to mention other salary cap issues.

Several of our players could consider looking around the league at some of the teams where some players have taken a bit less to give their team a chance to hire and retain a more competitive lineup. They don't have to, of course, and maybe there's a strong case to be made that it's the team's salary management and fiscal responsibility problem, not theirs.

Of course, a deflection here, a pipe there, a shot into the goalie's chest there, and the almost-unexpectedly contending Rangers of 2013-4 could have been hoisting the SCF.

A lot of players say New York is a first class, great experience for a player, and brings with it the side benefit of playing for an orig-6 team. Others shy away from the pressure. I'd say on aggregate MSL has not been cheated, but this group makes its own salary cap bed and has to lay in it. The stakes are higher, the pressure's higher, and the pay that comes with it is higher -- and if they win here, well if you were lucky enough to be around for 1994, you'll know that that's about as high a high* as you will get in this game.

* Though I think Toronto would explode their own minds and Montreal would have one big collective orgasm, but that's another concept for another thread.


hear hear, great post!

momentum
11-23-2014, 10:26 AM
Apparently I have to spread some reputation around before giving it to you again, but know that you were repped in spirit. The fact of the matter is that I don't think MSL regrets for a second his decision to come here. I mean, even though there was no Stanley Cup at the end of the rainbow, the spark he provided will forever be legendary. Hadn't we NEVER come back from down 3-1 in the playoffs? Hadn't Pittsburgh NEVER lost when leading 3-1 in the playoffs? Hadn't we never beaten Montreal in the Conference Finals? And the goal that moved us on to the SCF's? An OT goal, at MSG, sniped by none other than Martin St. Louis. That moment alone forever endeared him to the NY faithful, and I'm sure if asked he would confirm that it was a feeling second only to holding the Cup over his head in Tampa.

This, of course, is all from MSL's point of view. From an objective standpoint, the book is still out for obvious reasons. There's no question that Tampa is a team on a huge upswing. With Stamkos leading them, finally some good goaltending in Ben Bishop, a young and improving defense featuring such names as Sjustr and Hedman, and perhaps the most dynamic offensive prospect in the game in Drouin (in addition to other talent already named in this thread), the future is bright in Tampa. For the next few years they're going to be a force to be reckoned with.

That said, I'd argue that we are as well. Sure, a lot of luck went in to reaching the SCF's (as it always does), but there's more to the picture than matchup draws and emotional crucibles. The fact is that we had a terrific defense, arguably the best goaltender in the league, and an offense capable of producing at any moment from any line. We're feeling the keen sting right now of losing guys like Stralman and Boyle, but just because they're helping Tampa to a better record than us in the middle of November doesn't mean we're dead in the water. When Mac comes back, you're looking at McDonagh-Girardi, Boyle-Staal, Klein-Moore. That, to me, is still one of the best defenses you'll find in the league.

Additionally, the entire offense looks rejuvenated. Derick Brassard looks like a legit 1st or 2nd line center finally realizing his potential and playing with confidence. Chris Kreider is nabbing breakaways almost every game and making things happen in the offensive zone. It's only a matter of time before results start showing up on the stat sheet for him. Rick Nash looks every bit the superstar we traded for. Zook's game is rounding in to form, and we know what he can provide. Derek Stepan has 6 points in 7 games since he got back. Hayes and Duclair are terrific young talents that seemingly provide a spark every time they're out there. The lower lines, while by no means dominant, feature a solid amount of two-way talent with guys like Hagelin, Moore, Stempniak and Fast.

There's zero question that at this stage of the game, we look like a disjointed, Jekyll-and-Hyde, inconsistent mess. The defense has been running around like chickens with their heads cut off. But I've also seen brilliant stretches of play, both offensively and defensively. I've seen some keep-away games with the puck on the powerplay that I used to covet when I saw other teams doing it. We're constantly generating chances, and I haven't seen this level of offensive confidence from a Rangers team in a very long time. And yes, they DO have the talent to play that way and succeed.

With the massive amount of roster turnover, I for one believe that it's admirable they've performed as well as they have so far. Something to keep in mind: despite our "meh" start, we're only 6 points behind the feared and revered Bruins, who have also played two more games than us. If those two games are wins, that's only a two point difference between us and one of the best teams in the East. As far as I'm concerned, with all the injuries to our defense (Matt Hunwick and Mike Kostka should NEVER been full-time d-men for an NHL team), Henrik's inconsistent play to start the year (which bear in mind he had last season as well), and the tremendous roster turnover from last June, we're right where we're supposed to be. Don't forget the forced incorporation of several rookies in to the lineup, like Hayes/Duke/Fast.

This is a team still finding its legs, but I've seen enough from both the defense and the offense to convince me that when it all comes together, which I firmly believe it will, we will be consistently dangerous. And it's not as though our future is entirely shot either. People are painting it as if this roster is quickly trending toward irrelevancy in this league. Note, however, that 8 of our current 13 rostered forwards are 27 years old or younger. We have rookies still adjusting to the game, and considering the lack of first rounders in recent years, an admirable amount of young talent on the way. We may not have our own Jonathan Drouin, but Skjei/Buchnevich/Miller/Allen/Bodie/Haggerty/Lindberg all look like solid young players. Skjei and Buchnevich in particular are already being considered blue-chippers by experts.

So no, I don't think Marty made a mistake. Tampa may or may not be a better team in a few years than us, and sure: right now it's looking like an almost definite that they will be. But their success and ours aren't mutually exclusive. They may be sitting at the top of the Eastern Conference in two years for all we know, but if we're sitting 6-10 points back of them and drawing home ice in the playoffs, our chances at a championship are every bit as good as theirs. The fact is that Marty did something that hadn't been done in 20 years, and handed us our first piece of hardware in two decades. We hung a banner for the first time in a long time. And even though we came up short, you CANNOT discount the value of that experience for the younger players on the roster. They've all been there, and they know what it takes.

It's a process, with a tremendous learning curve right now, but in my opinion we're getting there. Let's see if it's a tremendous "mistake" in June. Calling it a mistake less than 1/4 in to the season, however, strikes me as a premature overreaction.

/end rant


I like long posts like this, repped!!

Mike
11-23-2014, 11:08 AM
hear hear, great post!


I like long posts like this, repped!!

You might be an US citizen now, but that doesn't exempt you from getting banned from here.

Vodka Drunkenski
11-23-2014, 11:48 AM
My phone crashed twice opening this thread

Ranger Lothbrok
11-23-2014, 12:23 PM
Since I wrote that last post, there have been 11 responses. Eight of them have been remarks about the post's length. I get it. If you don't like reading, don't read it. But eating up a thread with sarcastic comments in what is supposed to be a discussion forum is juvenile and unfair to the people actually interested in having a discussion. 99% of the time, when you say something on this board, someone always counters your point, sometimes seemingly for no other reason than to be contentious.

Instead of writing, "I think St. Louis did the right thing," and having people say, "why?", I try to lay out every aspect of my argument in one post. Instead of a series of disjointed, jumbled posts that, taken alone, fail to make a point, I try to write in a logical flow. The idea is that you can see how one point/argument/concept relates to another without having to thumb back through the thread.

Btw Pete, "1/4 way into the season" is easily the least important/substantial portion of what I wrote. That's not "skimming," it's summarizing incorrectly.

Mike
11-23-2014, 12:25 PM
Since I wrote that last post, there have been 11 responses. Eight of them have been remarks about the post's length. I get it. If you don't like reading, don't read it. But eating up a thread with sarcastic comments in what is supposed to be a discussion forum is juvenile and unfair to the people actually interested in having a discussion. 99% of the time, when you say something on this board, someone always counters your point, sometimes seemingly for no other reason than to be contentious.

Instead of writing, "I think St. Louis did the right thing," and having people say, "why?", I try to lay out every aspect of my argument in one post. Instead of a series of disjointed, jumbled posts that, taken alone, fail to make a point, I try to write in a logical flow. The idea is that you can see how one point/argument/concept relates to another without having to thumb back through the thread.

Btw Pete, "1/4 way into the season" is easily the least important/substantial portion of what I wrote. That's not "skimming," it's summarizing incorrectly.

Relax, bro. We all know each other for a long time. You should know by now not to take anything personal.

Pete
11-23-2014, 01:31 PM
Since I wrote that last post, there have been 11 responses. Eight of them have been remarks about the post's length. I get it. If you don't like reading, don't read it. But eating up a thread with sarcastic comments in what is supposed to be a discussion forum is juvenile and unfair to the people actually interested in having a discussion. 99% of the time, when you say something on this board, someone always counters your point, sometimes seemingly for no other reason than to be contentious.

Instead of writing, "I think St. Louis did the right thing," and having people say, "why?", I try to lay out every aspect of my argument in one post. Instead of a series of disjointed, jumbled posts that, taken alone, fail to make a point, I try to write in a logical flow. The idea is that you can see how one point/argument/concept relates to another without having to thumb back through the thread.

Btw Pete, "1/4 way into the season" is easily the least important/substantial portion of what I wrote. That's not "skimming," it's summarizing incorrectly.Exactly.

You summarized your entire post by saying the author said it was a mistake after 1/4 season...the timing the article was written is easily the least important thing about it. The author doesn't base his assessment that it was a mistake solely on what's happened so far this year.

So you summarizing your post that way is the reason I addressed it.

torontonyr
11-23-2014, 01:34 PM
Who do we have to look forward to? I only see Duclair, Nieves and Skjei as anyone that could be considered good prospects.

The core of this club is considered young, to in their prime.

All that needs to be added are complimentary pieces. Remember, this team has a huge reliance on college prospects and out of the box kids. Much like Hayes and/or MZA.

Phil in Absentia
11-23-2014, 01:37 PM
Folks, Lothbrok is right. We've been over this before. It's clearly covered in the rule book. If you think a thread or post sucks, simply do not respond to it.

Poking fun at the length of a post is not acceptable. It's a form of trolling, so cut the shit, please?

Ranger Lothbrok
11-23-2014, 04:44 PM
Exactly.

You summarized your entire post by saying the author said it was a mistake after 1/4 season...the timing the article was written is easily the least important thing about it. The author doesn't base his assessment that it was a mistake solely on what's happened so far this year.

So you summarizing your post that way is the reason I addressed it.

I get that. I was also responding to the people saying that we're in trouble and what have you. I don't quite feel the gloom and doom sense that others do. I still believe the really important, core/key pieces are still here, and that once the roster clicks, the supporting cast is almost interchangeable. And while everyone on here knows how I feel about mortgaging the future, I don't think we're that bad off in the long game.

When another team is looking at another decade of Stamkos and Drouin, yeah, it's easy to feel down on our system. But I think there's enough talent of the right type to keep the blood flowing so to speak, the way we've been doing since the lockout.

Pete
11-23-2014, 04:47 PM
I get that. I was also responding to the people saying that we're in trouble and what have you. I don't quite feel the gloom and doom sense that others do. I still believe the really important, core/key pieces are still here, and that once the roster clicks, the supporting cast is almost interchangeable. And while everyone on here knows how I feel about mortgaging the future, I don't think we're that bad off in the long game.

When another team is looking at another decade of Stamkos and Drouin, yeah, it's easy to feel down on our system. But I think there's enough talent of the right type to keep the blood flowing so to speak, the way we've been doing since the lockout.

Yes, I hear ya. All fair points. Don't necessarily disagree.

Respecttheblue
11-23-2014, 05:02 PM
What a surprise !! The 2 authors love each other !!



Lolz ... only in a Tortorellian fashion, or something like that. Some of the things in the post.

Also see "Missing Teeth's love thread (http://www.blueshirtsbrotherhood.com/showthread.php?13794-Love&p=669790&viewfull=1#post669790)" ... the age of Aquarius dawned in BSBH land, at least for a short moment.

As soon as we disagree ... it's the bench, the dog house, ;) then run out of town on a rail with P.A. Parenteau for not hustling one shift on the backcheck etc. etc., and a good old-fashioned BSBH pissing match, J.K. :bravery:

Respecttheblue
11-23-2014, 05:33 PM
I don't even think the comparison of youth in both organizations are even close. People throwing names around like Allen, McIlrath, Miller, Fast, Duclair, and Hayes aren't paying attention much, because when push comes to shove for a playoff push, at least 2, maybe even 3 of those above names will be thrown into trades to improve the current roster, while TB won't be trading any of their youth.

That will be interesting, and maybe frustrating, or might even suck.

I often find myself wrestling with letting go of prospects, especially blue-chippers. I hate letting to of first round draft picks. So who do you keep? Hopefully the ones you want to keep at positions that seem to need most help (defense, center). But the rub is that the ones one probably most wants to keep Hayes, Duclair, Fast, Allen, will be the ones most in demand; and the ones, some might feel are maybe have become overripe here —*McIlrath, Miller —*might not fetch that much back.

If we had to give up Hayes, or Duclair, I'd put that in the category of total suckage. Thing is, though, we're pretty much handcuffed, we can't afford to give away almost-NHL-ready young players like Hayes, because we need them to balance out payroll — we have paid Nash, Hank (too much?), McDonagh, Klein, Girardi and Brassard, and the bucks may not be there to pay another top-dollar top-6 FA,even if we want to. Maybe not even when Marty retires, because then we'll have to resign Steps (again), Zuke, Hagelin (theoretically) and in a couple of years, Kreider. The issue of Staal's salary is not solved, either.

We just may be in a place, now, where prospects who can ably fill lineup slots at a budget really matter more to keep than to trade. It's been turning in that direction for a while, and being more balanced like other teams in the balance of rookies, recent arrivals and veterans is a thing whose time has kinda come (and I like it). If that makes any sense.