PDA

View Full Version : Does J.T. Miller Realistically Have A Future Here?



CreaseCrusader91
11-05-2014, 01:58 PM
Does J.T. Miller have a future with the Rangers? Straightforward question, and after looking at tons of factors, I have a hard time finding a spot for him this year, or next year.

He’s been tried at center and wing, but center is pretty much accounted for unless he unseats Dominic Moore.
1) Stepan
2) Brassard
3) Hayes
4) Moore
5) Mueller

This really shouldn’t change that much, so that position is out..

Well, what about wing?

No real difference there, as this year he is trying to overcome:
1) Nash
2) St. Louis
3) Kreider
4) Zuccarello
5) Hagelin
6) Duclair

in the top nine. Factor in Stempniak, Glass and Malone and there isn’t any wiggle room.

What about next year?
Nash, Kreider and Duclair are here for sure. Zuccarello is a UFA, St. Louis is a UFA, but we know he wants to play more, and retire here. Hagelin an RFA that could earn a raise, so there is always the possibility that he is moved in the right deal. Glass is tied here as well, and Malone and Stempniak will be gone.

In all likelihood, I can see Nash, MSL, Kreider, Duclair, Zuccarello and Hagelin all returning. No reason why they wouldn’t unless money becomes a problem. MSL’s reduction from his current $5.625 cap hit could be dispersed towards raises of Hagelin and Zucc, so really the money would factor out to be similar.

Stepan’s raise, or Staal’s could be an issue, but that is a conversation for another day. In this situation, at the most he gets a fourth line shot. However, if things break the right way, it could be Hagelin on the fourth line, with a third line role opening up for someone else.

With all of this said, there are other challenges Miller could face.

Potential Variables, X-Factors
Pavel Buchnevich. Kid is outpacing what Tarasenko did as a 19 year old in the KHL. Me think he gets some AHL time, and he could challenge for a spot because of his amazing skill.

Ryan Haggerty, looked good in training camp, hasn’t really gotten a shot yet, so he’s an unknown.
I think these guys could challenge him, especially Buchnevich, and he’d be on the outside looking in.

So… what do the Rangers do? Move him in a deal for a top-four defender? Move him in a package to try and get into the first round of the 2015 draft, or the second round?

Unless I am missing something, I just can’t see a way into the lineup based on the personnel currently on the roster and in the system. Factor in that he’s been to Vigneault what Kreider was to Tortorella, and that makes things even harder. I think this is an interesting situation to have, and would love to hear some other thoughts.

I understand that there are a ton of What ifs?, and things of that nature, but to me it just seems that there is too much to overcome. Unless Hayes bombs out, or they make a major trade, I can't see him getting a long enough shot to make a difference here.

McDougalfaschnitzer
11-05-2014, 02:02 PM
It's not a future that will be handed to him, that's for sure.

AmericanJesus
11-05-2014, 02:11 PM
The same spot open we had to start this season, 3rd line center. Hayes is not a lock there. In 8 games he's managed just 2 points. Hayes also can shift to RW if need be and Miller can shift to left. So there's options there. And of course, there is the trade route, either for defensive depth or to upgrade a wing or center spot. That could mean trading one of Miller or Hayes, or trading one of the other wingers or centers.

CreaseCrusader91
11-05-2014, 02:15 PM
The same spot open we had to start this season, 3rd line center. Hayes is not a lock there. In 8 games he's managed just 2 points. Hayes also can shift to RW if need be and Miller can shift to left. So there's options there. And of course, there is the trade route, either for defensive depth or to upgrade a wing or center spot. That could mean trading one of Miller or Hayes, or trading one of the other wingers or centers.
The only reason I disagree is because of seems that AV has been more trusting with Hayes than Miller.

It seems the organization is more invested in him. Just my opinion.

While could work out, but would it be best to have our No. 15 pick only be a third liner here if he could be packed in a trade?

Pete
11-05-2014, 02:17 PM
IMO, not as long as AV is the coach. There's something about him/his game that doesn't agree with AV. He's got an NHL future, for sure. Just might not be here.

Future
11-05-2014, 02:22 PM
Miller certainly seems to have the talent and athleticism, but just isn't a fit. Agree w/ Pete - he's probably not going to be a regular as long as AV is here....which is a shame b/c I think he's going to be a good player.

CreaseCrusader91
11-05-2014, 02:28 PM
IMO, not as long as AV is the coach. There's something about him/his game that doesn't agree with AV. He's got an NHL future, for sure. Just might not be here.
Yeah, and if they trade him, they have a ton of players to use as reasons why he's no longer here.

!br-avery!
11-05-2014, 02:34 PM
Not here,I think he's moved before the deadline

thes5
11-05-2014, 03:56 PM
If he can be used effectively in a trade to acquire defensive depth or a top line center, he'll be packing his bags. It's probably best for both sides to move him anyway.

Maybe we can package him with McIlrath and Kristo for Sekara. :)

Phil in Absentia
11-05-2014, 04:05 PM
That's a rough deal to make for a UFA, especially with defenders coming back from injury pretty soon. Klein is back tonight, Boyle has been skating already and McDonagh is out 2-4 weeks, not months.

I'd sooner deal Miller with whatever other pieces are needed for some offensive punch at the deadline.

AmericanJesus
11-05-2014, 08:56 PM
Isn't JT Miller still just 21? Might be a little early to give up on him or to think he can never pay under AV. He's just got some learning to do. As to Hayes being favored, too soon to tell. Miller got 30 games last season under AV. We will see how Hayes continues to progress.

Phil in Absentia
11-05-2014, 09:06 PM
Isn't JT Miller still just 21? Might be a little early to give up on him or to think he can never pay under AV. He's just got some learning to do. As to Hayes being favored, too soon to tell. Miller got 30 games last season under AV. We will see how Hayes continues to progress.

Depends on if you consider it "giving up", or getting something that can help the team now. If he's dealt for an impact scorer at the deadline, that's not him being given up on. It's him being used to strenghten the team right now, today (well, tomorrow), for the purposes of winning as soon as possible.

Gotta give to get.

Giving up is what the Rangers did with Jessiman. Traded for futures. Or Sanguinetti, dealt for a second-round pick.

CreaseCrusader91
11-05-2014, 09:10 PM
Isn't JT Miller still just 21? Might be a little early to give up on him or to think he can never pay under AV. He's just got some learning to do. As to Hayes being favored, too soon to tell. Miller got 30 games last season under AV. We will see how Hayes continues to progress.

Well, I just look at the time they gave Miller last year, and how quickly they pulled plug this year. Then you factor the comments AV made, that he later backed track a bit on since media made a big deal of it, and people make assumptions. It is easier to do that when you consider the Kreider situation with Torts was not long ago. In addition, there's more of an inherent commitment to Hayes since NYR actively pursued and signed him, whereas Miller was a draft pick, and sometimes picks aren't a fit.

I want him to fit here, but just wonder what the odds are of him making it here.

Cash or Czech?
11-05-2014, 09:49 PM
Miller would be a way better complement on the left wing of Mueller and Duclair tonight, IMO. Or go Duclair-Miller-Mueller. Either way, I feel like it'd be a better combo.

G1000
11-05-2014, 10:57 PM
IMO, not as long as AV is the coach. There's something about him/his game that doesn't agree with AV. He's got an NHL future, for sure. Just might not be here.

JT seems like a Torts pick in a post-Torts world. He's a grinder. He needs to be somewhere where grinding is valued.

Pete
11-05-2014, 10:58 PM
JT seems like a Torts pick in a post-Torts world. He's a grinder. He needs to be somewhere where grinding is valued.

Eh, he has skill, too. He's just not encouraged to use it.

Phil in Absentia
11-05-2014, 11:23 PM
JT seems like a Torts pick in a post-Torts world. He's a grinder. He needs to be somewhere where grinding is valued.

Both Miller and McIlrath don't seem to "fit" this team any longer.

NYRangers723
11-06-2014, 08:08 AM
Both Miller and McIlrath don't seem to "fit" this team any longer.

I think Miller can be a ood bottom 6 player and he has sown flashes. Mcilrath was just a disaster of a pick especially wit the talent we passed on

AmericanJesus
11-06-2014, 08:16 AM
Depends on if you consider it "giving up", or getting something that can help the team now. If he's dealt for an impact scorer at the deadline, that's not him being given up on. It's him being used to strenghten the team right now, today (well, tomorrow), for the purposes of winning as soon as possible.

Gotta give to get.

Giving up is what the Rangers did with Jessiman. Traded for futures. Or Sanguinetti, dealt for a second-round pick.

That's trading a guy for value. I've got no problem with that if it's a good upgrade. However, I think it's a little early to put a 3rd line center ceiling on a 21 year old. When we have Brassard (playing well) and Stepan, sure, his ceiling is probably 3rd line center on our team right now. But when he's 25 and Brassard is put out to pasture, perhaps he's a longer term solution. As we've seen, you can never have too much depth down the middle, especially when your 1-2 centers are ideally suited for 2-3 on a deep team as it is. Now, maybe Hayes takes that 3rd line spot and Miller really doesn't have a home here, but I think that it's pretty early in Hayes' career to say that. 9 games into Miller's career, he had 2g, 1a and looked like he might be ready. He was just 19 at the time. Didn't work out and he got sent back down.

AmericanJesus
11-06-2014, 08:21 AM
Well, I just look at the time they gave Miller last year, and how quickly they pulled plug this year. Then you factor the comments AV made, that he later backed track a bit on since media made a big deal of it, and people make assumptions. It is easier to do that when you consider the Kreider situation with Torts was not long ago. In addition, there's more of an inherent commitment to Hayes since NYR actively pursued and signed him, whereas Miller was a draft pick, and sometimes picks aren't a fit.

I want him to fit here, but just wonder what the odds are of him making it here.

What we don't know is whether we could have afforded some growing pains with Miller if he was playing behind Stepan and Brassard. Development of a player isn't as simple as stepping up the ladder no matter what. Circumstance has to be right and you've got two different, sometimes opposed goals to deal with. An NHL coach's primary concern is winning games. Developing has to be able to occur while that's happening. Hayes could be in the lineup right now simply because with Stepan out, AV wanted more defensive responsibility at of that roster spot. Hayes is more defensively responsible than Miller, so he went with that.

My point is, you could have argued all these same points with Kreider in regards to AV. Fast made the team early last year over Kreider. When Kreider proved he could play and contribute, AV first eased him into the roster and then came to depend on him. Same can happen to Miller, he just needs to seize the opportunity when it arrives.

Travis Bickle
11-06-2014, 05:16 PM
It's Time To Give J.T. Miller A Legitimate Chance

http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2014/11/6/7161415/its-time-to-give-j-t-miller-a-legitimate-chance

----

Thought this might be of interest.

phillyb™
11-06-2014, 05:24 PM
i didn't read much...but i'm starting to like the idea of trading miller more and more.

Travis Bickle
11-06-2014, 05:41 PM
If they aren't going to use him on a consistent basis for whatever reason, then they might as well.

Gorilla Salad
11-06-2014, 05:46 PM
You know as soon as we trade this kid, he's going to blossom into a superstar. Or, even worse, end up on Pittsburg, where they switch him to wing and he becomes a 80 point player on Crosby's line :thumbsdown:

DiJock94
11-06-2014, 06:36 PM
You know as soon as we trade this kid, he's going to blossom into a superstar. Or, even worse, end up on Pittsburg, where they switch him to wing and he becomes a 80 point player on Crosby's line :thumbsdown:

Seriously that's exactly what will happen. He's only 21 though and needs seasoning. No big deal.

BlueJay
11-06-2014, 08:23 PM
Dunno why he isn't just given the 4th center position here. That line sucks as a whole now, at least it will give hime some NHL experience.

Bretzky
11-06-2014, 09:37 PM
My issue with Miller is that he doesn't look much more ready now than he did at 19.

He's still wildly inconsistent and doesn't look like he's giving 100% effort at times. Seems very unsure of himself or unsure where to go / what to do at times. Hesitation and lack of confidence will go a long way towards holding someone with a lot of potential back. It's up to him to find his game though. He's still very young so we'll see what happens. It doesn't bode well for him in the NYR organization though that Hayes has already leapfrogged him in terms of development / being NHL-ready. But a lot can change over the course of a season.

EdMc28
11-06-2014, 10:57 PM
I get the feeling he has the same immaturity issues off the ice that Del Zotto had/has. Until those get straightened out he's going to have no chance of becoming an impact NHL player.

Pete
11-07-2014, 07:35 AM
AV had nothing but good things to say about him when he was sent down. I believe he said Miller was prepared, it was just a numbers game and he need to play, not sit.

The only reason Hayes is here is because he's been a bit better defensively. There's not much of a difference otherwise.

DiJock94
11-07-2014, 09:36 AM
Agreed

AmericanJesus
11-07-2014, 10:14 AM
AV had nothing but good things to say about him when he was sent down. I believe he said Miller was prepared, it was just a numbers game and he need to play, not sit.

The only reason Hayes is here is because he's been a bit better defensively. There's not much of a difference otherwise.

This is kind of how I see it. It's really a good problem to have. We've got competition at a spot where we're weak. As long as both players are getting playing time, it's good. I think the immediate reaction to want a guy in this position traded is what leaves a team without the kind of depth you need to deal with injuries or when guys ahead of them slow down.

Pete
11-07-2014, 10:22 AM
This is kind of how I see it. It's really a good problem to have. We've got competition at a spot where we're weak. As long as both players are getting playing time, it's good. I think the immediate reaction to want a guy in this position traded is what leaves a team without the kind of depth you need to deal with injuries or when guys ahead of them slow down.

I think the problem is the way certain people view certain players, and what it means to be in the AHL. The AHL is the place you go to get your game ready for the NHL, and to learn, but for some guys the AHL is the end of the road, not a developmental league.

A guy like Hayes, right now, IMO should be in the AHL. Not because I don't like him or want him on the team, he just clearly has a lot to learn and the AHL is the best place to do that. He does a lot of good things at the NHL level. He also makes a lot of poor decisions at the NHL level. Same could be said of Miller, but Hayes' poor decisions come in the "right" zones, and Miller's in the "wrong" zones.

A guy like Mueller, I don't think it makes sense to assign him to the AHL because he's got nothing to learn. Use him as a plug while Hayes gets his feet under him in the AHL. Then bring him up later in the year and send Mueller back down.

As it relates to Miller, he's still learning I doubt the AHL is his last stop. He's only 21, the decision can't be made right this second that he has no future on the team and therefore must be traded. It's not so black and white. It's not NHL or another team completely. There's a lot of room in between, like letting him continue to develop in the AHL and then bring him along slowly in the NHL. If he started making less mistakes in his own zone, he'd probably be here instead of Hayes.

Future
11-07-2014, 11:57 AM
Good article. Thought this was pretty important:

Vigneault needs to accept that Miller is going to make some mistakes, and that making mistakes at the NHL level is the only way he is going to learn to become an NHL player.

I find it hard to believe that Miller can't succeed as the 3C on this team. Put him between Hags and Hayes or something and he should thrive.

AmericanJesus
11-07-2014, 01:14 PM
Good article. Thought this was pretty important:


I find it hard to believe that Miller can't succeed as the 3C on this team. Put him between Hags and Hayes or something and he should thrive.

My only concern with Miller's mistakes are that they tend to be of the bad turnover at the blue line variety. These are the types of mistakes in the NHL that directly lead to prime scoring chances against. With our team at full strength and in form, you can live with those kinds of things, but with a team weakened by injury, I get wanting to be extra cautious defensively. If that's the concern, I'd keep things as they are until Stepan plays for a couple of weeks and then I'd look to get Miller back into the lineup.

Hayes isn't playing well enough to override what's best for him development wise. He's been OK, but he could develop into a good player. Right now though it seems he's over thinking the game. The best way to work your way out of that is against weaker competition that's still stronger than what he faced in college.

Shanahammer
11-07-2014, 06:09 PM
I think the problem is the way certain people view certain players, and what it means to be in the AHL. The AHL is the place you go to get your game ready for the NHL, and to learn, but for some guys the AHL is the end of the road, not a developmental league.

A guy like Hayes, right now, IMO should be in the AHL. Not because I don't like him or want him on the team, he just clearly has a lot to learn and the AHL is the best place to do that. He does a lot of good things at the NHL level. He also makes a lot of poor decisions at the NHL level. Same could be said of Miller, but Hayes' poor decisions come in the "right" zones, and Miller's in the "wrong" zones.

A guy like Mueller, I don't think it makes sense to assign him to the AHL because he's got nothing to learn. Use him as a plug while Hayes gets his feet under him in the AHL. Then bring him up later in the year and send Mueller back down.

As it relates to Miller, he's still learning I doubt the AHL is his last stop. He's only 21, the decision can't be made right this second that he has no future on the team and therefore must be traded. It's not so black and white. It's not NHL or another team completely. There's a lot of room in between, like letting him continue to develop in the AHL and then bring him along slowly in the NHL. If he started making less mistakes in his own zone, he'd probably be here instead of Hayes.

I'm not comparing the two players, but think of how Detroit developed Nyquist.

Pete
11-07-2014, 06:16 PM
I'm not comparing the two players, but think of how Detroit developed Nyquist.

Yep. Pretty much how they developed most players. Slow to the NHL, start out on lower lines.

Puck Head
11-07-2014, 11:01 PM
Miller does make mistakes, but has much more offensive creativity then Hayes.

I think I'd let Miller And Duclair get crazy on the 3rd line and just allow it to flow.

Bretzky
11-07-2014, 11:18 PM
Miller does make mistakes, but has much more offensive creativity then Hayes.

I think I'd let Miller And Duclair get crazy on the 3rd line and just allow it to flow.

That's a stretch.

Where's this "much more offensive creativity?"

I certainly haven't seen it at the NHL level.

Hayes seems like the much smarter player: higher hockey IQ and more creativity.

Miller may be smoother with the puck but he's got Del Zotto syndrome it seems.

Pete
11-07-2014, 11:43 PM
What makes you think Hayes had a high hockey IQ? He holds onto pucks and carries them into dead areas of the ice more than Callahan used to. Plays die on his stick too many times.

I mean, you can argue that he has some good smarts to get the puck in certain areas and he makes some nice passes, but his offensive awareness isn't great at all. He has no idea if the appropriate play at any given time is to pass or shoot.

Mike
11-08-2014, 08:17 AM
What makes you think Hayes had a high hockey IQ? He holds onto pucks and carries them into dead areas of the ice more than Callahan used to. Plays die on his stick too many times.

I mean, you can argue that he has some good smarts to get the puck in certain areas and he makes some nice passes, but his offensive awareness isn't great at all. He has no idea if the appropriate play at any given time is to pass or shoot.

Which is concerning at this level. I have a hard time consuming that shit we explain to 12 year olds is still being explained to players at this level. To have to point out prime scoring areas to NHL players is head scratching.

Slobberknocker
11-08-2014, 11:04 AM
What makes you think Hayes had a high hockey IQ? He holds onto pucks and carries them into dead areas of the ice more than Callahan used to. Plays die on his stick too many times.

I mean, you can argue that he has some good smarts to get the puck in certain areas and he makes some nice passes, but his offensive awareness isn't great at all. He has no idea if the appropriate play at any given time is to pass or shoot.

you may be right but that's quite a strong bit of assertions for such a small sample size, outside of the one thing you didn't mention but can be agreed upon is he is a liability on faceoffs.

your first statement on IQ i would rethink. his IQ is obviously high enough that he's skating with the big club. he might be getting the benefit of the doubt due to his size, but your other whipping boy mcilrath is large and he got sent back down after one day on a blueline decimated with injury.

I'm not saying your not right, just i think your critique is a bit harsh at this point.

Pete
11-08-2014, 11:15 AM
you may be right but that's quite a strong bit of assertions for such a small sample size, outside of the one thing you didn't mention but can be agreed upon is he is a liability on faceoffs.

your first statement on IQ i would rethink. his IQ is obviously high enough that he's skating with the big club. he might be getting the benefit of the doubt due to his size, but your other whipping boy mcilrath is large and he got sent back down after one day on a blueline decimated with injury.

I'm not saying your not right, just i think your critique is a bit harsh at this point.

What would you like any critique to be based on? We can only judge based on what he's done.

This is also the last time I'll ask you to stop with help with whipping boy nonsense.

Mike
11-08-2014, 02:08 PM
Kreider might be the dumbest individual on the planet, and he's in the league. It means nothing. Imagine if he wasn't a moron .... Wow

Pete
11-08-2014, 02:17 PM
Kreider might be the dumbest individual on the planet, and he's in the league. It means nothing. Imagine if he wasn't a moron .... Wow

And regardless, he knows when to shoot the puck. Whatever anyone wants to say about hockey IQ (buzz-word, anyway), I don't see Hayes' offensive awareness. He holds pucks when he should pass or shoot, carrying them to dead areas (corner, behind net). Now being patient is OK. Brassard is patient. He sometimes passes up his shot...but usually something good comes of it. I dint see that with Hayes.

I actually think Hayes is going to be a great player for us, eventually. Something like a Handzus. Hard on the puck, good playmaker. I just think he should be in the A working on draws, reads, honing his instincts without the pressure of the NHL. He's young. He has his whole career ahead of him. I don't see why he HAS to be in the NHL NOW.

Just my two cents.

DiJock94
11-08-2014, 02:28 PM
Kreider might be the dumbest individual on the planet, and he's in the league. It means nothing. Imagine if he wasn't a moron .... Wow

Kreider is extremely intelligent. Graduated BC in three years speaks 4 languages. He acts like a goof ball but he's extremely intelligent.

Pete
11-08-2014, 02:29 PM
Kreider is extremely intelligent. Graduated BC in three years speaks 4 languages. He acts like a goof ball but he's extremely intelligent.

He's talking hockey-wise.

DiJock94
11-08-2014, 02:31 PM
Even then I would call him the dumbest guy on the planet. He's played sound defense granted not too tough for a winger and makes smart passes and knows when to jump behind the d for outlet passes. He's no marty St. Louis but still

Drew a Penalty
11-08-2014, 02:34 PM
Kreider is extremely intelligent. Graduated BC in three years speaks 4 languages. He acts like a goof ball but he's extremely intelligent.

Seriously?

Pete
11-08-2014, 02:39 PM
Even then I would call him the dumbest guy on the planet. He's played sound defense granted not too tough for a winger and makes smart passes and knows when to jump behind the d for outlet passes. He's no marty St. Louis but still

Maybe he's learning. He certainly showed a lack of sense at times in the past.

DiJock94
11-08-2014, 02:56 PM
Seriously?

Yea including Russian unless you were being sarcastic then that's not cool

Drew a Penalty
11-08-2014, 03:00 PM
Yea including Russian unless you were being sarcastic then that's not cool

I wasn't. I was curious how you know.

DiJock94
11-08-2014, 03:12 PM
I always follow the prospects religiously I remember giannone talking about it heard it on multiple occassions Cerny I believe mentioned how he spoke Russian in locker room with one of the guys. I think it was anisimov when he came in for the playoffs his first year

Mike
11-08-2014, 03:14 PM
Even then I would call him the dumbest guy on the planet. He's played sound defense granted not too tough for a winger and makes smart passes and knows when to jump behind the d for outlet passes. He's no marty St. Louis but still

He may be book smart, but he's not the brightest all around crayon in the box.

Ranger Lothbrok
11-08-2014, 03:36 PM
When I first saw this thread title, my answer was an unequivocal yes. Do we have room for a strong, speedy and talented young center? Absolutely. But the comments so far are right: there's something about him that doesn't jive well with AV.

Regardless, I'll say the same thing I said about John Moore: it doesn't make sense to cut your losses so to speak when the player's value is at an all time low. I would love to see him get an extended look at the NHL level. I really, truly believe that he's got a bright NHL future. Something like Mike Richards or close to it. The tools are all there, as is the production (43 points in 41 games with the Pack last year, 8 points in 9 games so far this year). I think we could easily find a spot for him in this lineup if one of the lower-line guys struggles, or if someone gets hurt.

That said, if this team is sitting near the top of the conference come the deadline, and there's an opportunity to get a legit 35-40 goal scorer in a trade, and Miller has to be a part of it, I'd definitely do it. If we had someone burying more of these golden chances that we seem to get often, like Nash usually does), the offense is downright scary. Everyone on here knows I'm loathe to part with young talent, but for the right player in the right situation, I definitely move him to gun for the Cup again.