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View Full Version : Anyone Up For Letting Hayes Center the Top Line These Next Half Dozen Games?



Slobberknocker
10-17-2014, 09:19 AM
i'd be willing to take a look here. Put's Marty back on the wing and lets Hayes lean on two vet wingers.

i like it allows you to slide Kried's down to the Zucc MZ line where hopefully he spells Poulliot and gives the third line a lot of speed with Hags and Duke.

momentum
10-17-2014, 09:22 AM
I would yes.

Pete
10-17-2014, 09:31 AM
Not really. It's basically throwing him to the wolves from a defensive standpoint and just because he looks OK getting 13 minutes a game doesn't mean he will look that good getting 17 against the other teams best players.

There's no reason to be impatient. This is another knee jerk idea to a slow start.

SaveByRichter35
10-17-2014, 10:17 AM
I like the idea

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 10:19 AM
Not really. It's basically throwing him to the wolves from a defensive standpoint and just because he looks OK getting 13 minutes a game doesn't mean he will look that good getting 17 against the other teams best players.

There's no reason to be impatient. This is another knee jerk idea to a slow start.

I suspect if you start Hayes at center of that top line, AV will find spots throughout the game to double up Brassard and insert Moore a few shifts to keep Hayes down around 12-13 minutes. Early in the season, and with what we've seen so far, I can't say anything should be off the table. We were basically playing an AHL team last night and barely made it to the shoot out.

TwoMinutesForNothing
10-17-2014, 10:21 AM
So who's the fourth center then? Malone?

Mike
10-17-2014, 10:23 AM
I suspect if you start Hayes at center of that top line, AV will find spots throughout the game to double up Brassard and insert Moore a few shifts to keep Hayes down around 12-13 minutes. Early in the season, and with what we've seen so far, I can't say anything should be off the table. We were basically playing an AHL team last night and barely made it to the shoot out.

Right, we were playing an AHL team, so maybe that's why he was given the opportunity. If that was Boston last night .....

H-Dreamer
10-17-2014, 10:24 AM
It worked fine for Dubinsky, though he probably was older and more developed at the time? (Also having Jagr on the wing helped)

Not too sure I would do this, but I'd really liked to get MSL back on the Wing.

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 10:26 AM
Right, we were playing an AHL team, so maybe that's why he was given the opportunity. If that was Boston last night .....

If that was Boston, would it have mattered? It would have been 6-0 heading into the third, not 1-0. Talbot would have been in net to start that period and who would have cared who the center for Nash was?

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 10:27 AM
So who's the fourth center then? Malone?

Moore.

Hayes - Brassard - Miller - Moore

Mike
10-17-2014, 10:28 AM
If that was Boston, would it have mattered? It would have been 6-0 heading into the third, not 1-0. Talbot would have been in net to start that period and who would have cared who the center for Nash was?

This is also a possibility.

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 10:30 AM
And to answer the who sits then question, either Malone or Glass depending on toughness of opponent.

MSL - Hayes - Nash
Kreider - Brassard - MZA
Duclair - Miller - Stempniak
Hagelin - Moore - Malone/Glass

Pete
10-17-2014, 10:30 AM
I suspect if you start Hayes at center of that top line, AV will find spots throughout the game to double up Brassard and insert Moore a few shifts to keep Hayes down around 12-13 minutes. Early in the season, and with what we've seen so far, I can't say anything should be off the table. We were basically playing an AHL team last night and barely made it to the shoot out.

Of course there is a way it can be done, but why? We're going to juggle and double shift guys on a team looking for sync and cohesion just to get Hayes a few shifts with the #1 line? Doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 10:33 AM
Of course there is a way it can be done, but why? We're going to juggle and double shift guys on a team looking for sync and cohesion just to get Hayes a few shifts with the #1 line? Doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

Or Miller. It isn't so much to get Hayes first line shifts as it is to get MSL off center. My issue is that with MSL at center, it's hurting us in the defensive zone and it's hurting his offensive abilities. Then with the defense also struggling, it's too much for the team to overcome. They can limp through one of those two things, but with both, we're the ones looking like an AHL team. Having Hayes or Miller as the top line center isn't ideal, but we have 4 natural centers up right now, and we have to use them all, imo.

DiJock94
10-17-2014, 10:37 AM
I think Nash and St Louis are good enough defensively that it won't be a big liability. And Dubinsky was about the same age hayes is now. Hayes isn't getting burned defensively either.

TwoMinutesForNothing
10-17-2014, 10:37 AM
I'd be very surprised if Miller got back in the lineup. I think his days in this organization are numbered.

Thump23
10-17-2014, 10:38 AM
I don't think it has to be set in stone that he centers that line for the next 6 games. Take it one game at a time. It's obvious AV doesn't want MSL at center and if Hayes can hold his own, why not try it? Hayes "could" potentially give this team some much needed size down the middle come playoffs. I want him and Miller in the lineup every night, as long as they don't cost the team games.

Pete
10-17-2014, 10:38 AM
Or Miller. It isn't so much to get Hayes first line shifts as it is to get MSL off center. My issue is that with MSL at center, it's hurting us in the defensive zone and it's hurting his offensive abilities. Then with the defense also struggling, it's too much for the team to overcome. They can limp through one of those two things, but with both, we're the ones looking like an AHL team. Having Hayes or Miller as the top line center isn't ideal, but we have 4 natural centers up right now, and we have to use them all, imo.

The problem is that MSL and Nash are clicking right now, from what I see. So you want to ride them. I'd rather throw DMoore at 1C just because he wins draws and have freaking Lindberg center the 4th line. Hayes isn't the answer. It's not what's best for him, or the team.

Thump23
10-17-2014, 10:41 AM
The problem is that MSL and Nash are clicking right now, from what I see. So you want to ride them. I'd rather throw DMoore at 1C just because he wins draws and have freaking Lindberg center the 4th line. Hayes isn't the answer. It's not what's best for him, or the team.

I think it's way too early to say for sure. This is what, his 3rd game? If the coaches thought Lindberg were the answer, he'd be here.

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 10:49 AM
The problem is that MSL and Nash are clicking right now, from what I see. So you want to ride them. I'd rather throw DMoore at 1C just because he wins draws and have freaking Lindberg center the 4th line. Hayes isn't the answer. It's not what's best for him, or the team.

I'm not breaking up Nash and MSL, though. I agree they're one of the few pairs that has any chemistry at all. If we bring Moore up to the top line, that's fine. I just don't want to have 3 centers and a converted wing at center because it's clearly not working. The team looks completely out of sorts and I think that's a key reason. The center's role is very complex as we both know, and MSL is only doing about 70% of the job, and only about 50% of it well. That 50% is what he'd normally be able to do from the wing anyway. At the same time, I think the extra thinking he has to do is costing his game in other areas.

So if it's Moore - Brassard - Miller - Hayes, or Miller - Brassard - Moore - Lindberg or what ever, I want 4 natural centers in the lineup.

Mike
10-17-2014, 10:52 AM
I think it's way too early to say for sure. This is what, his 3rd game? If the coaches thought Lindberg were the answer, he'd be here.

But Lindberg is better for lower role. Hayes shouldn't be on the 4th line.

DiJock94
10-17-2014, 10:53 AM
The problem is that MSL and Nash are clicking right now, from what I see. So you want to ride them. I'd rather throw DMoore at 1C just because he wins draws and have freaking Lindberg center the 4th line. Hayes isn't the answer. It's not what's best for him, or the team.

I disagree with this. Hayes has barely gotten his feet wet and he isn't totally out of place. Way too early to write a guy off

Pete
10-17-2014, 10:57 AM
I disagree with this. Hayes has barely gotten his feet wet and he isn't totally out of place. Way too early to write a guy off

Who's writing him off? He's fine getting his 11:00-12:00 a night. Nash and MSL shouldn't have to play with rotating centers to keep Hayes at a manageable TOI.

Is that what you want from a #1c? a guy who "doesn't look out of place"?

Thump23
10-17-2014, 10:57 AM
But Lindberg is better for lower role. Hayes shouldn't be on the 4th line.

Then he would have made the team out of camp, no? I don't love the idea of Moore centering the first line. If you want him there late in games to take faceoffs, cool, but I don't think he plays the kind of game Nash and MSL like to play. I'm not saying Hayes is the ultimate answer either, but why not see what the kid can do for a game or two? They're gonna be patching shit together until Stepan gets back regardless.

Pete
10-17-2014, 11:00 AM
I think it's way too early to say for sure. This is what, his 3rd game? If the coaches thought Lindberg were the answer, he'd be here.I mean, that's exactly the point. It's his third game and he's looked decent, at best. Now he's a first line center? No.


I'm not breaking up Nash and MSL, though. I agree they're one of the few pairs that has any chemistry at all. If we bring Moore up to the top line, that's fine. I just don't want to have 3 centers and a converted wing at center because it's clearly not working. The team looks completely out of sorts and I think that's a key reason. The center's role is very complex as we both know, and MSL is only doing about 70% of the job, and only about 50% of it well. That 50% is what he'd normally be able to do from the wing anyway. At the same time, I think the extra thinking he has to do is costing his game in other areas.

So if it's Moore - Brassard - Miller - Hayes, or Miller - Brassard - Moore - Lindberg or what ever, I want 4 natural centers in the lineup.Yup, agree.


But Lindberg is better for lower role. Hayes shouldn't be on the 4th line.Exactly.

DiJock94
10-17-2014, 11:00 AM
Who's writing him off? He's fine getting his 11:00-12:00 a night. Nash and MSL shouldn't have to play with rotating centers to keep Hayes at a manageable TOI.

Is that what you want from a #1c? a guy who "doesn't look out of place"?

I never said anything about his ice time. I think he should play as the first line center and roll the line like you normally would. If he flops he flops but I don't think you should manage the 1C minutes

Pete
10-17-2014, 11:01 AM
Then he would have made the team out of camp, no? I don't love the idea of Moore centering the first line. If you want him there late in games to take faceoffs, cool, but I don't think he plays the kind of game Nash and MSL like to play. I'm not saying Hayes is the ultimate answer either, but why not see what the kid can do for a game or two? They're gonna be patching shit together until Stepan gets back regardless.

What reason is there to rush anyone? It's like any time a young guy has any sniff of doing something decent, his role needs to be increased. I don't understand it. He isn't exactly tearing anything up. He just doesn't suck.

Pete
10-17-2014, 11:02 AM
I never said anything about his ice time. I think he should play as the first line center and roll the line like you normally would. If he flops he flops but I don't think you should manage the 1C minutes

And as I already said, there's no reason to rush him into 18-19 a night against top-level D when he's doing fine where here is.

Thump23
10-17-2014, 11:03 AM
I mean, that's exactly the point. It's his third game and he's looked decent, at best. Now he's a first line center? No.

No, Stepan is. But Stepan isn't here right now and they're trying to find something that works until he gets back. Moving Moore up to the top line, weakens two lines, IMO. I love Moore and everything he brings but he's not a 1st line center. Let Hayes play with two guys who can create on their own. Let Moore play where he's best served and you still can play 4 lines (most of the time) like the coach wants.


What reason is there to rush anyone? It's like any time a young guy has any sniff of doing something decent, his role needs to be increased. I don't understand it. He isn't exactly tearing anything up. He just doesn't suck.

Who is rushing him? He's played a period and change with Nash and MSL? What's the harm in giving him another look?

TwoMinutesForNothing
10-17-2014, 11:04 AM
If we are calling up a center then it would likely be Mueller. Maybe put him between Nash and MSL and see what happens. At least he seems to be offensively minded.

DiJock94
10-17-2014, 11:05 AM
And as I already said, there's no reason to rush him into 18-19 a night against top-level D when he's doing fine where here is.

My point is no one in our current lineup is clearly better than him, more of a knock on our centers than a credit to him. I'm not looking at it as much rushing him or pushing him as much as doing what gives us a chance to win.

Pete
10-17-2014, 11:07 AM
My point is no one in our current lineup is clearly better than him, more of a knock on our centers than a credit to him. I'm not looking at it as much rushing him or pushing him as much as doing what gives us a chance to win.

I don't think he's gives us a better chance to win as a 1C. He's been decent, at best.

Pete
10-17-2014, 11:07 AM
If we are calling up a center then it would likely be Mueller. Maybe put him between Nash and MSL and see what happens. At least he seems to be offensively minded.

I liked him on the PP in pre-season, too.

Pete
10-17-2014, 11:09 AM
No, Stepan is. But Stepan isn't here right now and they're trying to find something that works until he gets back. Moving Moore up to the top line, weakens two lines, IMO. I love Moore and everything he brings but he's not a 1st line center. Let Hayes play with two guys who can create on their own. Let Moore play where he's best served and you still can play 4 lines (most of the time) like the coach wants.



Who is rushing him? He's played a period and change with Nash and MSL? What's the harm in giving him another look?
Because a good period isn't an indicator of anything. There are games we look great for a period. But the game is 3 periods. The OP asks if we should ride Hayes as the #1C for 6 more games. That's not "a look".

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 11:09 AM
I think the reason none of us has the answer is there really isn't one. The reality we're facing is:

Brassard - 3rd line center last year, stepping up to a 2nd line center role this year.

Moore - 4th line center that could be a 3rd line checking center.

Miller/Hayes - Unknowns best suited for 3rd line center duty in the NHL at the moment.

So we've got a 2/3, two untested 3's and a 3/4 that we're trying to figure out a 1-2-3-4 with. It's never going to happen without some Duclair like miracle. And Duclair is starting to fade after 5 games.

TwoMinutesForNothing
10-17-2014, 11:10 AM
AV likes Hayes because he trusts him. He seems to have very good defensive awareness for a young player and he has size. This is why he got promoted to the top line and it's why he's in the lineup to begin with. I also think it's why he would be fine on the 4th line for a while. However what he is not doing is winning faceoffs, which most young centers struggle with when they first come up. That's why I'd rather not see him on the 1st or 4th lines for a while because faceoffs are key in both of those spots. I like him on the 3rd line and he can be moved around when needed.

Mike
10-17-2014, 11:11 AM
Then he would have made the team out of camp, no? I don't love the idea of Moore centering the first line. If you want him there late in games to take faceoffs, cool, but I don't think he plays the kind of game Nash and MSL like to play. I'm not saying Hayes is the ultimate answer either, but why not see what the kid can do for a game or two? They're gonna be patching shit together until Stepan gets back regardless.

Not necessarily. They are missing their top center. Hayes is a better option to fill 3rd line duties. When Stepan comes back, things will change. I don't expect to see Hayes, or Miller on the 4th line. It's about the type of role you play the game in, not about your ability being better than someone else's who is in the minors.

TwoMinutesForNothing
10-17-2014, 11:13 AM
I think the reason none of us has the answer is there really isn't one. The reality we're facing is:

Brassard - 3rd line center last year, stepping up to a 2nd line center role this year.

Moore - 4th line center that could be a 3rd line checking center.

Miller/Hayes - Unknowns best suited for 3rd line center duty in the NHL at the moment.

So we've got a 2/3, two untested 3's and a 3/4 that we're trying to figure out a 1-2-3-4 with. It's never going to happen without some Duclair like miracle. And Duclair is starting to fade after 5 games.

I don't think Duclair is really fading. I think he just needs to earn more trust. Even on the 4th line with Moore and Glass he was still creating his own scoring chances and drawing penalties.

Mike
10-17-2014, 11:18 AM
I think the reason none of us has the answer is there really isn't one. The reality we're facing is:

Brassard - 3rd line center last year, stepping up to a 2nd line center role this year.

Moore - 4th line center that could be a 3rd line checking center.

Miller/Hayes - Unknowns best suited for 3rd line center duty in the NHL at the moment.

So we've got a 2/3, two untested 3's and a 3/4 that we're trying to figure out a 1-2-3-4 with. It's never going to happen without some Duclair like miracle. And Duclair is starting to fade after 5 games.

Go next man up, then. Brassard - Moore - Hayes - Miller.

Thump23
10-17-2014, 11:18 AM
Not necessarily. They are missing their top center. Hayes is a better option to fill 3rd line duties. When Stepan comes back, things will change. I don't expect to see Hayes, or Miller on the 4th line. It's about the type of role you play the game in, not about your ability being better than someone else's who is in the minors.

So who do you think should skate between Nash and MSL right now? The choices seem to be Hayes, Moore, Miller, Lindberg, Mueller. And of course when Stepan comes back things change but we're talking about what to do until he gets back. Personally, I don't have a problem with giving Hayes another game there. It's only October.


Because a good period isn't an indicator of anything. There are games we look great for a period. But the game is 3 periods. The OP asks if we should ride Hayes as the #1C for 6 more games. That's not "a look".

Right, it's not. But you seem pretty sure Hayes can't/shouldn't be playing with Nash and MSL after just one period either though. Again, there's no harm in giving him another game with those two. As far as the OP, no I don't think he should be given the role. But things are going to change from game to game, period to period till Stepan gets back.

Thump23
10-17-2014, 11:20 AM
I don't think Duclair is really fading. I think he just needs to earn more trust. Even on the 4th line with Moore and Glass he was still creating his own scoring chances and drawing penalties.

It's pretty evident AV needs to trust you, big time. Last night was the first time Kreider touched the ice in a regular season OT game in about 6 games.

DiJock94
10-17-2014, 11:24 AM
Go next man up, then. Brassard - Moore - Hayes - Miller.

Only issue I see with this is your stacking the first line and killing the rest of them

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 11:24 AM
I don't think Duclair is really fading. I think he just needs to earn more trust. Even on the 4th line with Moore and Glass he was still creating his own scoring chances and drawing penalties.

Hasn't scored a goal in what, 2 pre-season games and 5 regular season games now? He was demoted last night before we scored the game tying goal. If you don't want a guy like him out there down by a goal, when does he fit? And the number of noticeable plays he makes has decreased. He had a couple last night, but I feel like he was shaky the first game (understandable), strong the 2nd and 3rd game, then the 4th and 5th he has been less noticeable offensively. He wanders in the defensive zone, getting pulled towards the puck and out of position. None of this is a surprise, but when Stepan comes back, one top 9 forward is losing a job. For me, he has to excel and produce to stay here. 6 shots on goal in 5 games isn't enough evidence to rush him into service, which is what we're doing now.

Pete
10-17-2014, 11:24 AM
Right, it's not. But you seem pretty sure Hayes can't/shouldn't be playing with Nash and MSL after just one period either though. Again, there's no harm in giving him another game with those two. As far as the OP, no I don't think he should be given the role. But things are going to change from game to game, period to period till Stepan gets back.Wrong. I haven't even watched the game from last night yet. I'll watch it when I get home.

What I am against is the notion that just because a guy does OK playing 11-12 minutes a night doesn't mean he should get 18 a night against better defenders, especially when that guy is a rookie. If he was dominating his shifts, then I'd say go for it. But he hasn't dominated anything, and there isn't even a consensus that he actually looked good with Nash and MSL, from what I'm reading. Someone is saying he looked great, another person is saying he didn't really even do anything.

Maybe one day Hayes will be a top 6 center with size and hands, but IMO today isn't that day.

There's no harm in giving Moore, Miller, any freaking center we have 1 games with Nash and MSL, but that's not a strategy. It's throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.

Mike
10-17-2014, 11:26 AM
So who do you think should skate between Nash and MSL right now? The choices seem to be Hayes, Moore, Miller, Lindberg, Mueller. And of course when Stepan comes back things change but we're talking about what to do until he gets back. Personally, I don't have a problem with giving Hayes another game there. It's only October.



Right, it's not. But you seem pretty sure Hayes can't/shouldn't be playing with Nash and MSL after just one period either though. Again, there's no harm in giving him another game with those two. As far as the OP, no I don't think he should be given the role. But things are going to change from game to game, period to period till Stepan gets back.
Nash and MSL should play with someone who can handle the same minutes they get during a game. Move everyone up. If you don't want to touch Brass and Zuc, then let Moore play.

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 11:27 AM
Wrong. I haven't even watched the game from last night yet. I'll watch it when I get home.

What I am against is the notion that just because a guy does OK playing 11-12 minutes a night doesn't mean he should get 18 a night against better defenders, especially when that guy is a rookie. If he was dominating his shifts, then I'd say go for it. But he hasn't dominated anything, and there isn't even a consensus that he actually looked good with Nash and MSL, from what I'm reading. Someone is saying he looked great, another person is saying he didn't really even do anything.

Maybe one day Hayes will be a top 6 center with size and hands, but IMO today isn't that day.

There's no harm in giving Moore, Miller, any freaking center we have 1 games with Nash and MSL, but that's not a strategy. It's throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.

I think this is where we're at as far as our top 4 center strategy, though. That should have been evident since game 1 of the season where we started MSL there.

Mike
10-17-2014, 11:29 AM
Only issue I see with this is your stacking the first line and killing the rest of them

So they should put Hayes there because he would hurt the team on the 3rd line? Didn't we just buy someone out like that?

Pete
10-17-2014, 11:31 AM
I think this is where we're at as far as our top 4 center strategy, though. That should have been evident since game 1 of the season where we started MSL there.

Fine, but that doesn't mean you throw a rookie to the wolves like that. It's not good for anyone. How good does Hayes look last night if E or J Staal are playing? My guess is "not very".

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 11:31 AM
Nash and MSL should play with someone who can handle the same minutes they get during a game. Move everyone up. If you don't want to touch Brass and Zuc, then let Moore play.

If that's the idea, I think Miller is the one most used to playing top line minutes, albeit at the AHL level. To me, you've got a guy there that plays that role at the AHL level with that team's top line talent to the tune of a point per game. I don't see why, given our situation, that wasn't the #1 option. I thought in preseason, Miller's first two games, playing in a top line role, he looked strong. Yes, he had a couple of brain dead, up the middle in the defensive zone turnovers, but he was getting the job done the rest of the time. Then AV tried others in that spot, which in preseason was the right move and no one seemed to seize it at all, imo.

I don't for the life of me understand why Miller hasn't gotten a few games in that role over MSL, who is clearly unfit for it. Only thing I can think of is that, as Pete has pointed out, he's in AV's dog house and so every mistake he makes gets magnified by the coach. That's a shame, because I think if given that opportunity to work out some bugs, he could be effective there at least until Stepan gets back.

Pete
10-17-2014, 11:32 AM
So they should put Hayes there because he would hurt the team on the 3rd line? Didn't we just buy someone out like that?

That that middle you listed doesn't even kill the rest of the team.

Mike
10-17-2014, 11:32 AM
I think this is where we're at as far as our top 4 center strategy, though. That should have been evident since game 1 of the season where we started MSL there.

Leave Brass at 2, push Moore up. He can make plays, and win a fuckin draw

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 11:33 AM
Fine, but that doesn't mean you throw a rookie to the wolves like that. It's not good for anyone. How good does Hayes look last night if E or J Staal are playing? My guess is "not very".

I agree there. I think against the AHL Hurricanes, he just looked decent in that third period. He wasn't a world beater in that role, although he did make a couple nice plays and was fine defensively. I just think we have no good answers, so we have to pick the best bad answer that's better than MSL there. If it were up to me, it's probably Miller and I'd tell him that he's got the next 3 games to earn the spot, that he's staying there for those three games sink or swim so he doesn't have to worry about the yo-yo string wrapped around his neck.

DiJock94
10-17-2014, 11:33 AM
So they should put Hayes there because he would hurt the team on the 3rd line? Didn't we just buy someone out like that?

You need some semblance of balance. You already have your best two forwards on the first line. You want to move brassard there and just play that line until they die from exhaustion?

Mike
10-17-2014, 11:35 AM
That that middle you listed doesn't even kill the rest of the team.

I don't think so either. I'd give Moore a shot, and leave Brass where he is. Moore was moving all game

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 11:36 AM
Leave Brass at 2, push Moore up. He can make plays, and win a fuckin draw

If we have to roll with Moore as our 1st line center for the next 5+ games, I think I'll literally puke. He's fine for what he is, but every time he gets moved up in the lineup in the past, he's disappeared.

Pete
10-17-2014, 11:37 AM
If that's the idea, I think Miller is the one most used to playing top line minutes, albeit at the AHL level. To me, you've got a guy there that plays that role at the AHL level with that team's top line talent to the tune of a point per game. I don't see why, given our situation, that wasn't the #1 option. I thought in preseason, Miller's first two games, playing in a top line role, he looked strong. Yes, he had a couple of brain dead, up the middle in the defensive zone turnovers, but he was getting the job done the rest of the time. Then AV tried others in that spot, which in preseason was the right move and no one seemed to seize it at all, imo.

I don't for the life of me understand why Miller hasn't gotten a few games in that role over MSL, who is clearly unfit for it. Only thing I can think of is that, as Pete has pointed out, he's in AV's dog house and so every mistake he makes gets magnified by the coach. That's a shame, because I think if given that opportunity to work out some bugs, he could be effective there at least until Stepan gets back.Coaches are people too, so we shouldn't act like they don't play favorites. There is a reason Moore is here and DZ isn't, that Glass got a 3 year deal, and that Miller isn't playing.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that's how it is. We went through this with JT, too. Every coach plays the guys they "think" can win them the game, but sometimes the judgement is poor. Every GM makes moves trying to help the team, but sometimes their judgement is poor. These guys aren't infallible.

AV has made some mistakes in his time here, and I think they way he is handling Miller is one of them. But everyone makes mistakes, doesn't make him a bad coach. He's obviously had success so far. But everything he touches isn't gold.

Thump23
10-17-2014, 11:38 AM
Nash and MSL should play with someone who can handle the same minutes they get during a game. Move everyone up. If you don't want to touch Brass and Zuc, then let Moore play.

But Moore isn't a good fit with those two. He's better on the 4th line, killing penalties and out late in games when you're defending a lead. You put Moore on the 1st line and you weaken two lines. It hurts whatever little depth they have.


Wrong. I haven't even watched the game from last night yet. I'll watch it when I get home.

What I am against is the notion that just because a guy does OK playing 11-12 minutes a night doesn't mean he should get 18 a night against better defenders, especially when that guy is a rookie. If he was dominating his shifts, then I'd say go for it. But he hasn't dominated anything, and there isn't even a consensus that he actually looked good with Nash and MSL, from what I'm reading. Someone is saying he looked great, another person is saying he didn't really even do anything.

Maybe one day Hayes will be a top 6 center with size and hands, but IMO today isn't that day.

There's no harm in giving Moore, Miller, any freaking center we have 1 games with Nash and MSL, but that's not a strategy. It's throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.

Look, I'm disappointed Miller isn't playing. I wish he were because I had high hopes for him this season. But again, my point is there is absolutely no harm in giving Hayes another game with MSL and Nash. What the hell is the downside? You lose a game? They lost three in a row up until last night.

When Stepan comes back I don't think this is an issue but right now, without your top center, you gotta mix shit up and hope you find something that works. And if that's a game to game, shift to shift thing, whatever. That's why AV is paid millions. I don't think anyone here is under the illusion that we'll see 4 cohesive lines till Stepan gets back.

Mike
10-17-2014, 11:39 AM
You need some semblance of balance. You already have your best two forwards on the first line. You want to move brassard there and just play that line until they die from exhaustion?

You're trying to balance a team with no depth. They play 24 shifts a night, that's their job. You don't put whipped cream with shit just to keep balance. 3 and 4 have a job to do. Work hard, keep the puck out of our own net. Let the horses do what they get paid to do.

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 11:39 AM
Coaches are people too, so we shouldn't act like they don't play favorites. There is a reason Moore is here and DZ isn't, that Glass got a 3 year deal, and that Miller isn't playing.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that's how it is. We went through this with JT, too. Every coach plays the guys they "think" can win them the game, but sometimes the judgement is poor. Every GM makes moves trying to help the team, but sometimes their judgement is poor. These guys aren't infallible.

AV has made some mistakes in his time here, and I think they way he is handling Miller is one of them. But everyone makes mistakes, doesn't make him a bad coach. He's obviously had success so far. But everything he touches isn't gold.

It's just frustrating because it's so self defeating. If AV is going to be the coach for a while, and I don't see any reason he shouldn't be, Sather needs to recognize this reality and move Miller. His value drops by the day under AV and I can't see any player in his position thriving this way.

Then, it seems to have worked out fine for Kreider. So what do we know?

Mike
10-17-2014, 11:43 AM
But Moore isn't a good fit with those two. He's better on the 4th line, killing penalties and out late in games when you're defending a lead. You put Moore on the 1st line and you weaken two lines. It hurts whatever little depth they have.



Look, I'm disappointed Miller isn't playing. I wish he were because I had high hopes for him this season. But again, my point is there is absolutely no harm in giving Hayes another game with MSL and Nash. What the hell is the downside? You lose a game? They lost three in a row up until last night.

When Stepan comes back I don't think this is an issue but right now, without your top center, you gotta mix shit up and hope you find something that works. And if that's a game to game, shift to shift thing, whatever. That's why AV is paid millions. I don't think anyone here is under the illusion that we'll see 4 cohesive lines till Stepan gets back.

Moore is the most versatile center we have. He can play in any role. It probably won't happen but don't expect much late in games from a guy who plays 10:00 a night. I'd like to see Miller there but I think he banged AV's daughter, and kicked his dog down the stairs.

Jules
10-17-2014, 11:45 AM
And to answer the who sits then question, either Malone or Glass depending on toughness of opponent.

MSL - Hayes - Nash
Kreider - Brassard - MZA
Duclair - Miller - Stempniak
Hagelin - Moore - Malone/Glass

When Stepan comes back, this is a group I have no worries about moving forward. Yesterday it was so obvious that a big issue was the transition from defense to offense through the neutral zone. There are two, maybe three, defenders who can make a decent outlet pass consistently, because John Moore is all over the place.

To answer your question: I like it, for now, but just a few games, or just a period when we're leading and feel it out. No need to blow his development, as good as he's looked.

Thump23
10-17-2014, 11:46 AM
Moore is the most versatile center we have. He can play in any role. It probably won't happen but don't expect much late in games from a guy who plays 10:00 a night. I'd like to see Miller there but I think he banged AV's daughter, and kicked his dog down the stairs.

I love Moore and yes he can play any role but I don't think that's the point. The point is, where is he most effective? I'm just as puzzled by the Miller thing as anyone, not sure why he hasn't been given the opportunity, I hope AV's daughter is hot though.

Pete
10-17-2014, 11:47 AM
It's just frustrating because it's so self defeating. If AV is going to be the coach for a while, and I don't see any reason he shouldn't be, Sather needs to recognize this reality and move Miller. His value drops by the day under AV and I can't see any player in his position thriving this way.

Then, it seems to have worked out fine for Kreider. So what do we know?

Kreider was a different story. I think AV likes Kreider. Gave him a role he could excel in, and stuck with him.

Miller, he hasn't done that at all. That's why that quote over the summer saying they were giving Miller an "opportunity" was garbage.

DiJock94
10-17-2014, 11:49 AM
You're trying to balance a team with no depth. They play 24 shifts a night, that's their job. You don't put whipped cream with shit just to keep balance. 3 and 4 have a job to do. Work hard, keep the puck out of our own net. Let the horses do what they get paid to do.

That's my point Nash and Msl carry that first line. Hayes won't ruin that line hell they were playing great with Duclair and Msl out of position. Hayes on the first line keeps your 3rd and fourth lines solid.

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 11:49 AM
Kreider was a different story. I think AV likes Kreider. Gave him a role he could excel in, and stuck with him.

Miller, he hasn't done that at all. That's why that quote over the summer saying they were giving Miller an "opportunity" was garbage.

Eh, he sent Kreider down to the AHL to start the season last year after a disappointing camp. When he came back up, he did put him in a good spot though. Kreider seized it as well. I agree that Miller hasn't been put in a spot to succeed. That comment on Miller was before they signed Hayes as well. And it was for the third line center spot with a healthy Stepan. A lot changed.

Thump23
10-17-2014, 11:51 AM
Kreider was a different story. I think AV likes Kreider. Gave him a role he could excel in, and stuck with him.

Miller, he hasn't done that at all. That's why that quote over the summer saying they were giving Miller an "opportunity" was garbage.

Do you really think, considering the struggles they've had at center ice, that AV would let personal feelings or vendettas get in the way of him icing the best team he possibly could? It's an honest question.

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 11:53 AM
Do you really think, considering the struggles they've had at center ice, that AV would let personal feelings or vendettas get in the way of him icing the best team he possibly could? It's an honest question.

I don't think Pete is saying it's personal or a vendetta. I think he's saying there's something about Miller's game on the ice that AV doesn't trust. And AV is big on playing players he trusts, just like most successful NHL coaches.

Thump23
10-17-2014, 11:55 AM
I don't think Pete is saying it's personal or a vendetta. I think he's saying there's something about Miller's game on the ice that AV doesn't trust. And AV is big on playing players he trusts, just like most successful NHL coaches.

Vendetta was probably a strong word.

DiJock94
10-17-2014, 11:56 AM
I don't think Pete is saying it's personal or a vendetta. I think he's saying there's something about Miller's game on the ice that AV doesn't trust. And AV is big on playing players he trusts, just like most successful NHL coaches.

I think it's the repetitive stupid turnovers that he makes, that would typically drive any good coach to a psych evaluation

Pete
10-17-2014, 12:00 PM
Do you really think, considering the struggles they've had at center ice, that AV would let personal feelings or vendettas get in the way of him icing the best team he possibly could? It's an honest question.


I don't think Pete is saying it's personal or a vendetta. I think he's saying there's something about Miller's game on the ice that AV doesn't trust. And AV is big on playing players he trusts, just like most successful NHL coaches.

That's it. When I say he has something "personal" against Miller, I mean "personal preference". I mean really, Hayes has been no better or worse than Miller. Both players are pointless, Miler -4 Hayes -3, Miller 1 giveaway Hayes 2, Miller 3 takes, Hayes 2.

On the ice they both do some good things, but the plays are dying on Hayes' stick and Miller's mistakes wind up in the net (I'd call it "unlucky more than "poor play"). I can't see, with my eyeballs, one hockey related reason that Miller isn't playing, other than AV's personal preference.

Obviously, on here, there have been people bashing Miller since the lockout year who are going to say that Hayes looks better, but that's bunk, IMO.

Pete
10-17-2014, 12:01 PM
I think it's the repetitive stupid turnovers that he makes, that would typically drive any good coach to a psych evaluation

Yet Miller has recorded 1 giveaway and Hayes has recorded 2.

DiJock94
10-17-2014, 12:09 PM
Yet Miller has recorded 1 giveaway and Hayes has recorded 2.

He's had a tendency since last year to make dumb passes. AV also gets to watch these guys everyday in practice. There has to be a reason Miller is benched

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 12:12 PM
Yet Miller has recorded 1 giveaway and Hayes has recorded 2.

He had a couple brutal ones that I remember in preseason. That seemed to start the decline of his chances this year.

TwoMinutesForNothing
10-17-2014, 12:21 PM
Positioning is the reason. Miller is never in the right place in either zone.

Pete
10-17-2014, 12:26 PM
"Never" is a reach, as he had a couple of great set ups to Malone for goals.

TwoMinutesForNothing
10-17-2014, 12:28 PM
He's good in transition, lost on offensive possession plays. It's what leads to the puck going the other directions so much with him out there and what AV gets frustrated at.

Pete
10-17-2014, 12:32 PM
I don't think we can presume to know what AV gets frustrated at, and he's never said that.

The turnovers, we all see them, and there's nothing new there for a young player. Again, 59 games.

Slobberknocker
10-17-2014, 01:21 PM
I know Hayes on the first line is not the optimal thing but I just like it puts the brass line back together and would be good to get zucs going

DiJock94
10-17-2014, 02:21 PM
Mueller recalled miller and fast sent down

Pete
10-17-2014, 02:22 PM
Hey, TwoMins got one right!

Aslo, please post the source. Thx.

Puck Head
10-17-2014, 02:22 PM
Was disappointed when I read right now that Miller was sent down.
This whole thing makes no sense to me.

Slobberknocker
10-17-2014, 02:25 PM
Makes sense. Put mueller o.n the third line

Slobberknocker
10-17-2014, 02:25 PM
It's on the rangers official site

Slobberknocker
10-17-2014, 02:27 PM
Av just doesn't have confidence in jt puck

Slobberknocker
10-17-2014, 02:30 PM
Frankly I thought mueller had a better camp than those two but guess he wanted to Try the kids first

Pete
10-17-2014, 02:33 PM
Thread open here (http://www.blueshirtsbrotherhood.com/showthread.php?14832-Jesper-Fast-and-JT-Miller-to-Hartford-Chris-Muller-to-New-York&p=706096#post706096).

torontonyr
10-17-2014, 06:01 PM
Yes. He's essentially riding shotgun to two of the best players in the world who can mask for his rookie mistakes, and hopefully bring out the best he has to offer while allowing our other lines to gel comfortably in their (somewhat) proper places.

Bretzky
10-18-2014, 02:16 PM
Yes.

For now, I'd like to see:


Kreider Hayes Nash

Duclair Brassard Zuccarello

Stempniak D.Moore St. Louis

Hagelin Mueller Malone



When Stepan returns, I'd like to see:


Duclair Stepan St. Louis

Two savvy veterans who are defensively responsible enough to mask any of Duke's deficiencies while maximizing his skillset. The duo of Stepan-St.Louis showed promise at times during last season, most notably during the Philly series. This line boasts speed and finishing ability on the wings and our best playmaking center in the middle. Stepan will find the open man, whether it's St. Louis or The Duke; a strong three-zone line that can put the puck in the net on a consistent basis.

Kreider Hayes Nash

Holy SIZE, batman. 6'3", 6'4", 6'5". Nash is the shooter. Hayes is the playmaker. Kreider is the shit-disturber, forechecker, space-creator, speedster, net-crasher. (In fact, I really think that could catch on as a nickname: "Kreider The Space-Creator!") This line has the potential to DOMINATE, especially against some of the smaller defensive pairings in the East

Stempniak Brassard Zuccarello

Our most successful / synergistic duo from last season with the red-hot Stempniak replacing Pouliot on the left-wing. Brass and Zucc would pass the puck into the net if they could, so put them with a guy who wants to SHOOT THE PUCK! What a concept, I know!

Hagelin D.Moore Malone

Carl Hagelin on your fourth line? That speaks to just how stellar our depth on the wings has become (thanks largely in part to the accelerated development of Duclair, and the surprising consistency and overall intensity / performance of Stempniak). D.Moore and Malone provide veteran leadership, smart two-way play, versatility, physicality, and underrated overall skillsets. Hagelin adds dynamic speed to the mix, making for a strong three-zone line that should be a legitimate menace on the forecheck.


depth:

Glass
Fast
Miller
Mueller
Haggerty
Lindberg

Pete
10-18-2014, 02:22 PM
Yes.

For now, I'd like to see:


Kreider Hayes Nash

Duclair Brassard Zuccarello

Stempniak D.Moore St. Louis

Hagelin Mueller Malone

Don't like these lines too much, considering Stempniak has been our best forward not named Nash and the 2nd/3rd lines are defensive nightmares.


When Stepan returns, I'd like to see:


Duclair Stepan St. Louis

Two savvy veterans who are defensively responsible enough to mask any of Duke's deficiencies while maximizing his skillset. The duo of Stepan-St.Louis showed promise at times during last season, most notably during the Philly series. This line boasts speed and finishing ability on the wings and our best playmaking center in the middle. Stepan will find the open man, whether it's St. Louis or The Duke; a strong three-zone line that can put the puck in the net on a consistent basis.

Kreider Hayes Nash

Holy SIZE, batman. 6'3", 6'4", 6'5". Nash is the shooter. Hayes is the playmaker. Kreider is the shit-disturber, forechecker, space-creator, speedster, net-crasher. (In fact, I really think that could catch on as a nickname: "Kreider The Space-Creator!") This line has the potential to DOMINATE, especially against some of the smaller defensive pairings in the East

Stempniak Brassard Zuccarello

Our most successful / synergistic duo from last season with the red-hot Stempniak replacing Pouliot on the left-wing. Brass and Zucc would pass the puck into the net if they could, so put them with a guy who wants to SHOOT THE PUCK! What a concept, I know!

Hagelin D.Moore Malone

Carl Hagelin on your fourth line? That speaks to just how stellar our depth on the wings has become (thanks largely in part to the accelerated development of Duclair, and the surprising consistency and overall intensity / performance of Stempniak). D.Moore and Malone provide veteran leadership, smart two-way play, versatility, physicality, and underrated overall skillsets. Hagelin adds dynamic speed to the mix, making for a strong three-zone line that should be a legitimate menace on the forecheck.


depth:

Glass
Fast
Miller
Mueller
Haggerty
Lindberg

Don't mind giving these lines a shot, though.

Bretzky
10-18-2014, 02:28 PM
Hi Pete. Missed ya :P


Yeah, Stepan being out of the lineup really throws everything out of whack. It's more than just missing his skillset in the lineup. The entire balance of scoring and chemistry is messed up. He can't come back soon enough.

Stepan it
10-18-2014, 04:06 PM
Id like to see Malone bumped up a line or two, give him a chance maybe sparks will fly

The Dude
10-18-2014, 05:00 PM
I think this is where we're at as far as our top 4 center strategy, though. That should have been evident since game 1 of the season where we started MSL there.

Agreed.

I think the player who fits the need is the best players for the job. MSL wasnt fitting. Miller, Hayes or Moore should get a serious look there. I thought Millers game fit best, but some say he hasn't earned the job. Cant move Brassard from Zuccs.... So, its gotta be one of these three.

The team needs MSL's scoring ability to happen on a separate line. To balance it out, skillset should be the priority for Nashs center. Not exactly who deserves it or earned it. Not at this time. They need to develop 3 lines that can score. Or do they go with one stacked line, to get traction going first in the season?

Guess since Miller was sent down, Hayes is the fit. I like Petes idea of Moore there just because he wins draws and can skate.

Phil in Absentia
10-19-2014, 07:50 PM
That line, with all that size was extremely effective tonight. That's a combination I'm not breaking up until I'm absolutely forced to if I'm AV.

So Nashty
10-19-2014, 07:52 PM
Genius.

phillyb™
10-19-2014, 07:53 PM
word.

H-Dreamer
10-19-2014, 07:53 PM
Cautiously optimistic for this. :)

lefty9
10-19-2014, 08:34 PM
nice game by the rookie.
love this kid's game

Pete
10-19-2014, 08:40 PM
This fan base has low standards. Mediocre. At best.

Myusername
10-19-2014, 09:25 PM
Depends on what your expectations are. If you're expecting him to turn into Getzlaf then one might be disappointed. It was a good game for a rookie with just a few games under his belt.

Way to early to make any kind of assumptions though. Fucking Voros looked like a first line player for a month or two here

Cash or Czech?
10-19-2014, 09:32 PM
He finally shot the puck instead of making a move. That was nice to see. Not sold after four games but his game has been NHL-level so far. We have a while to see what he can turn into.

torontonyr
10-19-2014, 09:51 PM
Hayes looked good out there. He wasn't perfect, but he had moments in which he was dominant in the Sharks zone.

Respecttheblue
10-20-2014, 08:21 AM
That line, with all that size was extremely effective tonight. That's a combination I'm not breaking up until I'm absolutely forced to if I'm AV.

Ditto.

It works, and until there's a problem that calls for a reshuffle there's not much point to breaking it up. Just go with the flow and try not to look too far ahead.

The kid's been quietly impressive. Doing positive things just about every game; maybe not as obvious as Duclair was initially, or with the same results, but it was also nice to see one finally go in for him to validate his efforts...as well as seeing him handle the center role.

FleshistheFever
10-20-2014, 09:39 AM
36% on faceoffs. He needs to pick that up a bit! Otherwise, great job by Hayes last night. He looked excited to play but remained composed throughout the game. Looks like we have our future #2 center.

Phil in Absentia
10-20-2014, 09:51 AM
This fan base has low standards. Mediocre. At best.

Considering the alternatives? Not at all. This is a stop-gap solution. I'm saying, for who he is at this point in his early NHL career, it's clear he has the physical tools to be in the position he's in. He controls the puck well, has great vision, can skate well and both keep up with his line mates, as well as back check. What's not to like? It's clearly not the position he'll be in all year — we know this. But that doesn't change the fact that that line looked and performed efficiently in the interim while we wait for the rest of the roster players to heal up... notably Stepan, whose position he's skating in for the time being.

leetchy2
10-20-2014, 10:18 AM
His positioning in the defensive zone so far has been very good. In the 2nd period there was one play where both d-men were behind the net and he went to the loose player in front of the net, intercepted the pass, and showed great poise in moving the puck toward the boards out of trouble. His offensive playmaking ability has been very good too. Just need to work with Messier on those face-offs.

So Nashty
10-20-2014, 10:21 AM
His positioning in the defensive zone so far has been very good. In the 2nd period there was one play where both d-men were behind the net and he went to the loose player in front of the net, intercepted the pass, and showed great poise in moving the puck toward the boards out of trouble. His offensive playmaking ability has been very good too. Just need to work with Messier on those face-offs.

I think Messier is working for Edmonton or Toronto or one of those teams now actually. At least I remember reading that he was doing something with one of those organizations. Ide look it up but im on my phone at the moment.

Slobberknocker
10-20-2014, 11:23 AM
i was always partial to the messier cross check on bure with 1.6 left.

Puck Head
10-20-2014, 03:36 PM
Hayes was pretty terrible on faceoffs.
Solid in his zone defensively.
Created a few scoring chances for himself.
Created one premium chance for teammate.
Looked poised in offensive zone
Finished one scoring chance.

Overall couldn't have asked for much more in regards to where he's at development.

AmericanJesus
10-20-2014, 08:40 PM
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/10/20/hartnett-rookie-kevin-hayes-is-impressing-rangers-with-his-veteran-poise/


‘BUGSY’ MALONE, RANGERS VETERANS TAKE HAYES UNDER THEIR WING

Hayes credits veteran forward Ryan Malone as a positive influence and is attempting to emulate Malone’s on-ice and off-ice work habits.

“Me and Bugsy have gotten really close here,” Hayes said. “He’s been super nice to me, giving me pointers and stuff. He’s been in the league 11 years. He’s a good guy to follow. We’re both pretty big guys. Having him here, you take in as much information as you possibly can. I’m trying to follow whatever he does, and how he does it. I’m kind of mimicking what he does on and off the ice.”

Here kid, you take the rolled up $100....

Gee, thanks Mr. Bugsy!

Vodka Drunkenski
10-20-2014, 08:45 PM
Mimic off the ice? Uh oh

Phil in Absentia
10-20-2014, 09:16 PM
I'm not worried. Malone seems to have really turned himself around.

JOHN
10-20-2014, 11:57 PM
Yeah, he's doing heroin now. Much easier to control and it's not a very big sharing drug.

Bretzky
10-21-2014, 10:55 PM
Yeah, he's doing heroin now. Much easier to control and it's not a very big sharing drug.

Much easier to control? I hope that was a joke. Heroin is an opiate: the most addictive family of drugs in the world. Not easy to control at all.

(from experience).

leetchy2
10-22-2014, 09:38 AM
After the 2nd goal last night I wonder where Mueller fits on the center depth chart now. Not too many players in the league could have scored that goal (great pass from Brass BTW). Plus he had an assist on the game winner. Clearly Mueller is ahead of JT at this point and he seems to be positionally sound in the defensive zone, but where does he go when Stepan returns? Could DMoore even be the odd center out? Guess we don't have to answer that question now, but it presents an interesting dynamic in not only how it impacts the center spot but also the wing if Hayes changes position.

Pete
10-22-2014, 09:50 AM
I'd say Mueller is ahead of Hayes at this point, too. He outscored Hayes in one game.

;)

AmericanJesus
10-22-2014, 09:57 AM
I'd say Mueller is ahead of Hayes at this point, too. He outscored Hayes in one game.

;)

They're tied as far as this season, although Nash and Mueller are our only players on a point per game pace right now. Not sure why the broadcast staff and the score keeper in game had so much trouble realizing it was Hayes who's shot led to the Nash goal. I think they originally credited it to Stemp for some reason.

Lt. Dan
10-22-2014, 11:47 AM
I'd say Mueller is ahead of Hayes at this point, too. He outscored Hayes in one game.

;)

Where is Mueller from anyways? I know nothing about the guy, but I like what I've seen so far. Goal aside, he seems to be able to make a decent pass which is always noticeable on this team :p

Phil in Absentia
10-22-2014, 11:49 AM
Where is Mueller from anyways? I know nothing about the guy, but I like what I've seen so far. Goal aside, he seems to be able to make a decent pass which is always noticeable on this team :p

Played with Dallas last season.

Blueshirt Banter actually has a good write-up on him here: http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2014/10/19/7002939/new-york-rangers-san-jose-sharks-preview-chris-mueller-introduction-power-play

Lt. Dan
10-22-2014, 12:06 PM
Played with Dallas last season.

Blueshirt Banter actually has a good write-up on him here: http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2014/10/19/7002939/new-york-rangers-san-jose-sharks-preview-chris-mueller-introduction-power-play

Thank you, sir.

Seems like a project signing. I like the fact that he was out on the PP. Shows AV isn't afraid to try just about anybody.

Morphinity
10-22-2014, 12:07 PM
Thank you, sir.

Seems like a project signing. I like the fact that he was out on the PP. Shows AV isn't afraid to try just about anybody.

When it's 0 for 17 or whatever it was, why the hell not? lol

Lt. Dan
10-22-2014, 12:30 PM
When it's 0 for 17 or whatever it was, why the hell not? lol

There are coaches who just stick with the same damn players/rotation. Shit PP or not, the fact that a call up got time on the power play is a good thing.

I don't care who plays on the first and second squad as long as the job gets done.

Mike
10-22-2014, 01:11 PM
Much easier to control? I hope that was a joke. Heroin is an opiate: the most addictive family of drugs in the world. Not easy to control at all.

(from experience).
That explains a lot. I take back everything I've ever said about you.

JOHN
10-22-2014, 03:58 PM
Much easier to control? I hope that was a joke. Heroin is an opiate: the most addictive family of drugs in the world. Not easy to control at all.

(from experience).

:doh: I'm going to buy you a sarcasm detector.

Myusername
10-22-2014, 04:43 PM
I honestly don't see Mueller in our long-term plans. Guy is 28 and has played only 45 or so NHL games. I'd play him while he's hot, then give the minutes back to whoever he's taking them from. And he will get cold... guy is a fringe NHL'er at best.

TwoMinutesForNothing
10-22-2014, 05:45 PM
He seems like a more skilled John Mitchell to me. I don't mind him at all. I'll take a 4th liner that can play the PK and PP all day.

!br-avery!
10-22-2014, 09:02 PM
He seems like a more skilled John Mitchell to me. I don't mind him at all. I'll take a 4th liner that can play the PK and PP all day.

I would too,real decent skill level for a 4th liner

Cash or Czech?
10-22-2014, 11:42 PM
I honestly don't see Mueller in our long-term plans. Guy is 28 and has played only 45 or so NHL games. I'd play him while he's hot, then give the minutes back to whoever he's taking them from. And he will get cold... guy is a fringe NHL'er at best.

He's a "stopgap" until Stepan gets back in the sense that he fills a center spot for us. Once Stepan is healthy, Mueller comes out and D. Moore goes to the 4th line. Unless they want Mueller in the lineup and they take Malone or Glass out and throw the guy on the wing.

Slobberknocker
10-23-2014, 11:46 AM
i think if the guy continues to produce they will find a place for him. never underestimate the need for role players on a good team.

Thump23
10-23-2014, 11:52 AM
I don't think Hayes is going anywhere, even when Stepan comes back, unless his game really slides.

Myusername
10-23-2014, 02:43 PM
i think if the guy continues to produce they will find a place for him. never underestimate the need for role players on a good team.

My thinking is if he's such a great role player why has he never stuck in the NHL before?

Pete
10-23-2014, 03:02 PM
Why hadn't John Mitchell before he got here?

Future
10-23-2014, 03:39 PM
Why hadn't John Mitchell before he got here?
Mitchell had played like 160 games with Toronto before he got to NY, and was only 25 when we acquired him.

Pete
10-23-2014, 03:46 PM
Mitchell had played like 160 games with Toronto before he got to NY, and was only 25 when we acquired him.

Yea, I guess I was thinking of someone else.

Regardless, point stands, just because someone hasn't stuck in the NHL, until a certain point, doesn't mean they never will. Look at Tim Thomas.

The term "late bloomer" exists for a reason.

Ranger Lothbrok
10-23-2014, 04:15 PM
Yea, I guess I was thinking of someone else.

Regardless, point stands, just because someone hasn't stuck in the NHL, until a certain point, doesn't mean they never will. Look at Tim Thomas.

The term "late bloomer" exists for a reason.

Additionally, he might be deserving of a roster spot for reasons entirely separate from our center issues. It is WAYYY too small of a sample size, but can anybody realistically deny that the powerplay has looked better with him as a right-hand shot on it? Mueller may not have the complete package that makes guys valuable NHLers, but he may have the right skill-set to be valuable in a limited role.

Sam and Joe keep talking about how talented he is, and how great he was in the AHL, and I for one don't really buy it. But what I do see is that he's not afraid to shoot, makes smart/quick passes on the powerplay, and gives us a right-handed shooting option from the point without looking out of place at all. We'll see where he goes from here, but even if the powerplay doesn't score, if it continues to maintain possession in our opponents' zone and generate quality chances, there's a discussion to be had about whether Mueller can/should be kept on board for PP usage.

momentum
10-23-2014, 04:54 PM
Yea, I guess I was thinking of someone else.

Regardless, point stands, just because someone hasn't stuck in the NHL, until a certain point, doesn't mean they never will. Look at Tim Thomas.

The term "late bloomer" exists for a reason.Agree 100%, Stralman comes to mind as well, didn't even make the Devils team on a tryout a few years ago and his NHL days were pretty much numbered when we took a shot at him and he flourished.

JOHN
10-23-2014, 06:06 PM
Yea, I guess I was thinking of someone else.

Regardless, point stands, just because someone hasn't stuck in the NHL, until a certain point, doesn't mean they never will. Look at Tim Thomas.

The term "late bloomer" exists for a reason.

Let's not forget PAP. He did ride early success on a shallow Islanders team, but still he was a guy who definitely fits the "late bloomer" mold.

Ranger Lothbrok
10-23-2014, 09:28 PM
MSL was a little bit of a late bloomer too. Came in the league around 1998 I believe, didn't hit his stride until 2001-2002ish. He was about 25 then I think.

Myusername
10-23-2014, 11:25 PM
You guys are pointing to the few exceptions in the last how many ever years. I'd love for him to prove me wrong, but I doubt it happens

Bretzky
10-24-2014, 01:13 AM
That explains a lot. I take back everything I've ever said about you.

I know you're just joking, but I really would hope to not be treated differently for admitting that I've had a severe drug and alcohol problem in the past.

Yes, I'm in recovery. I goto outpatient rehab groups four nights a week after work for 3 hours a night, and I wake up at 530am every day to get to a 6AM Alcoholics Anonymous meeting before work so I'm able to start my day in the right mindset, and more simply, so that I'm able to fit a daily meeting into my busy work schedule. I'm celebrating my first year (for the second time) in a month and 3 days. I'm not ashamed of any of it. I'm not sure what that has to do with my hockey insight, so please don't take shots at me regarding my addiction if we get into a heated discussion / debate (Not you, Mikey; simply speaking in general).

I have two sides.

There's the rational, analytical side with has an immense understanding of the X's and O's of hockey, and an extremely accurate record when it comes to assessing player development, value, and predicting trends / production / team and player success.

Then there's the fun side who loves to come up with completely unrealistic, wild, out-of-this-world trade proposals because for some strange reason I get turned on by typing out potential star-studded NYR lineups and daydreaming about The Rangers winning The Stanley Cup with said lineup.

In the past, I've crossed a line and been offensive to certain posters and I've made mistakes and posted things that I both regret and am not proud of. Since discussing those infractions / incidents with Pete and Phil, I've attempted to refrain from the posts that make me seem like an angsty, immature jerk. As most of us, I'm still prone to mistakes now and again, but I've made a clear effort to stay within the realm of respectability and to remind myself on a daily basis that we are all NY Rangers fans here with one common unifying desire: to see our team hoist Lord Stanley's Cup.

I apologize for the last time for any offensive remarks or unnecessary flame-fests that I either initiated or contributed to.

I want to be a friend to everyone here, whether I agree with their opinions or not. Point in case: Pete and I almost never agree (at least not 100%), but I have the utmost respect for him, his opinions, and his knowledge / articulation / analysis of the game we all watch.

I will continue to make an effort to contribute nothing but productive and positive input to this forum and I hope anyone that I offended or mistreated in the past can forgive me and move on together. I sincerely mean that.

Cheers,
Brett

Mike
10-24-2014, 08:52 AM
I know you're just joking, but I really would hope to not be treated differently for admitting that I've had a severe drug and alcohol problem in the past.

Yes, I'm in recovery. I goto outpatient rehab groups four nights a week after work for 3 hours a night, and I wake up at 530am every day to get to a 6AM Alcoholics Anonymous meeting before work so I'm able to start my day in the right mindset, and more simply, so that I'm able to fit a daily meeting into my busy work schedule. I'm celebrating my first year (for the second time) in a month and 3 days. I'm not ashamed of any of it. I'm not sure what that has to do with my hockey insight, so please don't take shots at me regarding my addiction if we get into a heated discussion / debate (Not you, Mikey; simply speaking in general).

I have two sides.

There's the rational, analytical side with has an immense understanding of the X's and O's of hockey, and an extremely accurate record when it comes to assessing player development, value, and predicting trends / production / team and player success.

Then there's the fun side who loves to come up with completely unrealistic, wild, out-of-this-world trade proposals because for some strange reason I get turned on by typing out potential star-studded NYR lineups and daydreaming about The Rangers winning The Stanley Cup with said lineup.

In the past, I've crossed a line and been offensive to certain posters and I've made mistakes and posted things that I both regret and am not proud of. Since discussing those infractions / incidents with Pete and Phil, I've attempted to refrain from the posts that make me seem like an angsty, immature jerk. As most of us, I'm still prone to mistakes now and again, but I've made a clear effort to stay within the realm of respectability and to remind myself on a daily basis that we are all NY Rangers fans here with one common unifying desire: to see our team hoist Lord Stanley's Cup.

I apologize for the last time for any offensive remarks or unnecessary flame-fests that I either initiated or contributed to.

I want to be a friend to everyone here, whether I agree with their opinions or not. Point in case: Pete and I almost never agree (at least not 100%), but I have the utmost respect for him, his opinions, and his knowledge / articulation / analysis of the game we all watch.

I will continue to make an effort to contribute nothing but productive and positive input to this forum and I hope anyone that I offended or mistreated in the past can forgive me and move on together. I sincerely mean that.

Cheers,
Brett

I was joking, and despite our differences in the past, I have nothing but the utmost respect, and admiration for the battle you face every day. I'm not an addict, nor do I pretend to know the pain of being one, but I just buried my 42 year old sister in-law 10 days ago due to addiction. She had a great family that loved her, a ton of support, and a beautiful 2 year old baby girl that she loved more than anything in the world, but she couldn't beat the addiction.

* I apologize for derailing the thread.

lefty9
10-24-2014, 09:55 AM
I know you're just joking, but I really would hope to not be treated differently for admitting that I've had a severe drug and alcohol problem in the past.

Yes, I'm in recovery. I goto outpatient rehab groups four nights a week after work for 3 hours a night, and I wake up at 530am every day to get to a 6AM Alcoholics Anonymous meeting before work so I'm able to start my day in the right mindset, and more simply, so that I'm able to fit a daily meeting into my busy work schedule. I'm celebrating my first year (for the second time) in a month and 3 days. I'm not ashamed of any of it. I'm not sure what that has to do with my hockey insight, so please don't take shots at me regarding my addiction if we get into a heated discussion / debate (Not you, Mikey; simply speaking in general).

I have two sides.

There's the rational, analytical side with has an immense understanding of the X's and O's of hockey, and an extremely accurate record when it comes to assessing player development, value, and predicting trends / production / team and player success.

Then there's the fun side who loves to come up with completely unrealistic, wild, out-of-this-world trade proposals because for some strange reason I get turned on by typing out potential star-studded NYR lineups and daydreaming about The Rangers winning The Stanley Cup with said lineup.

In the past, I've crossed a line and been offensive to certain posters and I've made mistakes and posted things that I both regret and am not proud of. Since discussing those infractions / incidents with Pete and Phil, I've attempted to refrain from the posts that make me seem like an angsty, immature jerk. As most of us, I'm still prone to mistakes now and again, but I've made a clear effort to stay within the realm of respectability and to remind myself on a daily basis that we are all NY Rangers fans here with one common unifying desire: to see our team hoist Lord Stanley's Cup.

I apologize for the last time for any offensive remarks or unnecessary flame-fests that I either initiated or contributed to.

I want to be a friend to everyone here, whether I agree with their opinions or not. Point in case: Pete and I almost never agree (at least not 100%), but I have the utmost respect for him, his opinions, and his knowledge / articulation / analysis of the game we all watch.

I will continue to make an effort to contribute nothing but productive and positive input to this forum and I hope anyone that I offended or mistreated in the past can forgive me and move on together. I sincerely mean that.

Cheers,
Brett
Good post , good luck

momentum
10-24-2014, 01:12 PM
I know you're just joking, but I really would hope to not be treated differently for admitting that I've had a severe drug and alcohol problem in the past.

Yes, I'm in recovery. I goto outpatient rehab groups four nights a week after work for 3 hours a night, and I wake up at 530am every day to get to a 6AM Alcoholics Anonymous meeting before work so I'm able to start my day in the right mindset, and more simply, so that I'm able to fit a daily meeting into my busy work schedule. I'm celebrating my first year (for the second time) in a month and 3 days. I'm not ashamed of any of it. I'm not sure what that has to do with my hockey insight, so please don't take shots at me regarding my addiction if we get into a heated discussion / debate (Not you, Mikey; simply speaking in general).

I have two sides.

There's the rational, analytical side with has an immense understanding of the X's and O's of hockey, and an extremely accurate record when it comes to assessing player development, value, and predicting trends / production / team and player success.

Then there's the fun side who loves to come up with completely unrealistic, wild, out-of-this-world trade proposals because for some strange reason I get turned on by typing out potential star-studded NYR lineups and daydreaming about The Rangers winning The Stanley Cup with said lineup.

In the past, I've crossed a line and been offensive to certain posters and I've made mistakes and posted things that I both regret and am not proud of. Since discussing those infractions / incidents with Pete and Phil, I've attempted to refrain from the posts that make me seem like an angsty, immature jerk. As most of us, I'm still prone to mistakes now and again, but I've made a clear effort to stay within the realm of respectability and to remind myself on a daily basis that we are all NY Rangers fans here with one common unifying desire: to see our team hoist Lord Stanley's Cup.

I apologize for the last time for any offensive remarks or unnecessary flame-fests that I either initiated or contributed to.

I want to be a friend to everyone here, whether I agree with their opinions or not. Point in case: Pete and I almost never agree (at least not 100%), but I have the utmost respect for him, his opinions, and his knowledge / articulation / analysis of the game we all watch.

I will continue to make an effort to contribute nothing but productive and positive input to this forum and I hope anyone that I offended or mistreated in the past can forgive me and move on together. I sincerely mean that.

Cheers,
Brett

Lots of wisdom in this post. :repped: Good luck Brett!

SaveByRichter35
10-24-2014, 01:20 PM
I know you're just joking, but I really would hope to not be treated differently for admitting that I've had a severe drug and alcohol problem in the past.

Yes, I'm in recovery. I goto outpatient rehab groups four nights a week after work for 3 hours a night, and I wake up at 530am every day to get to a 6AM Alcoholics Anonymous meeting before work so I'm able to start my day in the right mindset, and more simply, so that I'm able to fit a daily meeting into my busy work schedule. I'm celebrating my first year (for the second time) in a month and 3 days. I'm not ashamed of any of it. I'm not sure what that has to do with my hockey insight, so please don't take shots at me regarding my addiction if we get into a heated discussion / debate (Not you, Mikey; simply speaking in general).

I have two sides.

There's the rational, analytical side with has an immense understanding of the X's and O's of hockey, and an extremely accurate record when it comes to assessing player development, value, and predicting trends / production / team and player success.

Then there's the fun side who loves to come up with completely unrealistic, wild, out-of-this-world trade proposals because for some strange reason I get turned on by typing out potential star-studded NYR lineups and daydreaming about The Rangers winning The Stanley Cup with said lineup.

In the past, I've crossed a line and been offensive to certain posters and I've made mistakes and posted things that I both regret and am not proud of. Since discussing those infractions / incidents with Pete and Phil, I've attempted to refrain from the posts that make me seem like an angsty, immature jerk. As most of us, I'm still prone to mistakes now and again, but I've made a clear effort to stay within the realm of respectability and to remind myself on a daily basis that we are all NY Rangers fans here with one common unifying desire: to see our team hoist Lord Stanley's Cup.

I apologize for the last time for any offensive remarks or unnecessary flame-fests that I either initiated or contributed to.

I want to be a friend to everyone here, whether I agree with their opinions or not. Point in case: Pete and I almost never agree (at least not 100%), but I have the utmost respect for him, his opinions, and his knowledge / articulation / analysis of the game we all watch.

I will continue to make an effort to contribute nothing but productive and positive input to this forum and I hope anyone that I offended or mistreated in the past can forgive me and move on together. I sincerely mean that.

Cheers,
Brett

I hope all the best for you Brett. Hang in there man and keep up the good work.

Pete
10-26-2014, 09:43 AM
Stepan can't come back soon enough.

AmericanJesus
10-26-2014, 10:06 AM
Stepan can't come back soon enough.

This. No team excels without their top center, but we implode. The decision to start MSL there was one of AV's worst coaching decisions since he got here. Wasted those early games where most teams are still figuring things out on an idea that was bound to lose and robbed Miller of any confidence he might have had from a decent preseason.

Dunny
10-26-2014, 10:38 AM
Everything is fucked. Brassard is about normal but that's, well, OK I guess. Moore as anything more than the 4C is subpar. Hayes is a rookie winger playing center. MSL as a center is ridiculous. It's a steaming pile of hot garbage.

I have to think Stepan won't be Stepan till Chtistmas either. It's scary. Hopefully they can just hold on.

Morphinity
10-26-2014, 11:23 AM
I mean were basically hoping for a great game out of Hayes and/or Mueller (with their combined 56 games of NHL experience) to get our top line going. It's really going on a wing and a prayer.

Pete
10-26-2014, 03:39 PM
Mueller did more in 2 games than Hayes did in all of his.