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Phil in Absentia
10-06-2014, 09:18 AM
:tweet: @stevezipay: ICYMI, Anthony Duclair's agent told La Presse that the winger will start season with #NYR, but 19-yr-old could be sent back to juniors

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Just as an official thread, seeing as this is relatively big news that may get lost in the TC/PS thread.

AmericanJesus
10-06-2014, 09:24 AM
Strangely worded by Zip. Could be read to mean that regardless of what Duclair's agent said, he could be going back to Juniors now or it could read that since he's Juniors eligible all season, he could get sent back at some time in the future.

phillyb™
10-06-2014, 09:46 AM
well congrats.
if he plays for the rangers, can he be sent back to juniors?
and then, can he be recalled from juniors if we need him?

Phil in Absentia
10-06-2014, 09:53 AM
well congrats.
if he plays for the rangers, can he be sent back to juniors?

Yes. At any point in the season, from what I understand.


and then, can he be recalled from juniors if we need him?

No. Once he's returned to his Junior team, he's not eligible to return until next season.

AmericanJesus
10-06-2014, 09:53 AM
well congrats.
if he plays for the rangers, can he be sent back to juniors?
and then, can he be recalled from juniors if we need him?

He will burn the first year of his entry level contract this year no matter where he plays or for how long. His junior eligibility lasts all season, so he can be sent down at any point of the year. Once sent back to juniors, I do not believe he can be recalled.

Phil in Absentia
10-06-2014, 09:55 AM
I haven't checked the new CBA to confirm this, but the only way a player can be recalled from Junior in the past was through Emergency Re-call in the event the team has suffered catastrophic injury losses. This is how the Flames, for example, were able to bring up Baertschi back in 2012.

G1000
10-06-2014, 10:03 AM
:tweet: @stevezipay: ICYMI, Anthony Duclair's agent told La Presse that the winger will start season with #NYR, but 19-yr-old could be sent back to juniors

--

Just as an official thread, seeing as this is relatively big news that may get lost in the TC/PS thread.

Is that in the "anyone can be sent down" line of thought, or the "he'll be in Quebec at some point" line of thought?

Tough to read too much into this.

Future
10-06-2014, 10:03 AM
Has Stepan to LITR been confirmed? I haven't seen that anybody got claimed, so that's the only way to get him up to the big club isn't it?

Phil in Absentia
10-06-2014, 10:05 AM
Has Stepan to LITR been confirmed? I haven't seen that anybody got claimed, so that's the only way to get him up to the big club isn't it?

Duclair? No. They could move another contract by trade, and still have another day to place players on waivers in the hopes they get claimed.

AmericanJesus
10-06-2014, 10:11 AM
We need to be down to 50 contracts by 5:00pm tomorrow. Will find out if any waiver players from yesterday get claimed around noon. We'd have to waive a player by noon today and have them get claimed by noon tomorrow for that to open a spot. Other way would be a trade where we don't take a body back or trade two for one, that kind of thing.

Interesting to me that McIlrath was not sent down, yet didn't play any of the last two games. Maybe they wanted him to stick around practice and watch team play preseason before sending him back. Maybe they didn't want him going down to Hartford and potentially getting hurt while they shop him.

NYR2711
10-06-2014, 10:17 AM
We need to be down to 50 contracts by 5:00pm tomorrow. Will find out if any waiver players from yesterday get claimed around noon. We'd have to waive a player by noon today and have them get claimed by noon tomorrow for that to open a spot. Other way would be a trade where we don't take a body back or trade two for one, that kind of thing.

Interesting to me that McIlrath was not sent down, yet didn't play any of the last two games. Maybe they wanted him to stick around practice and watch team play preseason before sending him back. Maybe they didn't want him going down to Hartford and potentially getting hurt while they shop him.

I would think though that if they were shopping him, he would be a piece in a bigger trade considering that he is a former first round pick with potential. I can't see them just trading him for a 4th rounder.

AmericanJesus
10-06-2014, 10:19 AM
I would think though that if they were shopping him, he would be a piece in a bigger trade considering that he is a former first round pick with potential. I can't see them just trading him for a 4th rounder.

Well, history seems to show that former 1st rounders who teams give up on typically fetch a 2nd round pick. I could also see a prospect for prospect trade where the Rangers send McIlrath plus another Hartford body for another team's prospect.

I mean, Sanguinetti got a 2nd and a 6th.

NYR2711
10-06-2014, 10:21 AM
Well, history seems to show that former 1st rounders who teams give up on typically fetch a 2nd round pick. I could also see a prospect for prospect trade where the Rangers send McIlrath plus another Hartford body for another team's prospect.

I would think that it would be the other way around where a team would send us two prospects for McIlrath. I have no problems moving him, I just don't see them moving him for very little. That would suggest that Sather made a huge mistake in taking him in the first round, and I don't see Sather as that type of guy.

AmericanJesus
10-06-2014, 10:29 AM
I would think that it would be the other way around where a team would send us two prospects for McIlrath. I have no problems moving him, I just don't see them moving him for very little. That would suggest that Sather made a huge mistake in taking him in the first round, and I don't see Sather as that type of guy.

I was only bringing up a 2 for 1 because we need to clear a contract. So McIlrath and someone like Troy Donnay for a higher end prospect from another team that hasn't seemed to work out for them.

NYR2711
10-06-2014, 10:33 AM
I was only bringing up a 2 for 1 because we need to clear a contract. So McIlrath and someone like Troy Donnay for a higher end prospect from another team that hasn't seemed to work out for them.

I get what your saying, and not disagreeing with you, but I just feel that Sather would want something big for McI so the pick doesn't look so bad of him. I definitely wouldnt be opposed to a move like this though. I just see him as a guy that they would throw in at the deadline for a bigger player to help the team.

Slobberknocker
10-06-2014, 10:33 AM
im confused about Duclair's movement. I thought he gets a 9 game look. does that mean if he's sent down before the 9 games he can be called up and if sent down after he cannot be? what about for the playoffs? don't they expand the rosters?

BlairBettsBlocksEverything
10-06-2014, 10:35 AM
The nine games involves not taking a year off of his contract. We are at the contract limit anyway though so we still have to move someone.

Phil in Absentia
10-06-2014, 10:36 AM
im confused about Duclair's movement. I thought he gets a 9 game look. does that mean if he's sent down before the 9 games he can be called up and if sent down after he cannot be? what about for the playoffs? don't they expand the rosters?

The nine game thing is used by teams who want to give a Junior-eligible player an NHL look, but do not want to burn the first year of their Entry-Level contract. Ten games is considered "one year" by CBA standards, so if that Junior-eligible player plays his tenth game, he loses his Junior eligibility, meaning he cannot be returned to his Junior team that season and must stick with his NHL team. Additionally, players coming out of the CHL also cannot be assigned to the AHL, so if their play falls off, they are stuck with the NHL team for the entire year.

Duclair doesn't fit this criteria based on when he signed his contract. He burns his first year of his ELC no matter what, so the team risks nothing in keeping him, because they can assign him back to Junior at any point in the year if his play deteriorates.

AmericanJesus
10-06-2014, 10:37 AM
im confused about Duclair's movement. I thought he gets a 9 game look. does that mean if he's sent down before the 9 games he can be called up and if sent down after he cannot be? what about for the playoffs? don't they expand the rosters?

A typical junior player is under an entry level contract that slides if they haven't played 10 NHL games, meaning a 3 year deal doesn't start that year, but slides to be a 3 year deal starting the following year. That's where the 9 game look comes from. Any junior player can be kept for any number of NHL games and sent down, but once they play that 10th NHL game, they lose a year of their ELC. Duclair's contract won't slide though, because he signed in after January of this year. So whether he is sent down now or 50 games from now, he's burning the first year of his entry level contract.

AmericanJesus
10-06-2014, 10:39 AM
The nine game thing is used by teams who want to give a Junior-eligible player an NHL look, but do not want to burn the first year of their Entry-Level contract. Ten games is considered "one year" by CBA standards, so if that Junior-eligible player plays his tenth game, he loses his Junior eligibility, meaning he cannot be returned to his Junior team that season and must stick with his NHL team. Additionally, players coming out of the CHL also cannot be assigned to the AHL, so if their play falls off, they are stuck with the NHL team for the entire year.

Duclair doesn't fit this criteria based on when he signed his contract. He burns his first year of his ELC no matter what, so the team risks nothing in keeping him, because they can assign him back to Junior at any point in the year if his play deteriorates.

Do we have confirmation on this? I thought that a junior player can still be sent back to juniors, they would have just burned a year of their ELC.

Phil in Absentia
10-06-2014, 10:45 AM
Do we have confirmation on this? I thought that a junior player can still be sent back to juniors, they would have just burned a year of their ELC.

You could be right. I don't speak legalese as well as I thought I did. Just tried to read it up in the CBA and I think I suffered an aneurysm

AmericanJesus
10-06-2014, 11:04 AM
:tweet: Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie In perfect world, underage junior Anthony Duclair will be on NYR 23-man roster to start season but team needs to shed one contract to do so.

Pete
10-06-2014, 11:15 AM
The nine game thing is used by teams who want to give a Junior-eligible player an NHL look, but do not want to burn the first year of their Entry-Level contract. Ten games is considered "one year" by CBA standards, so if that Junior-eligible player plays his tenth game, he loses his Junior eligibility, meaning he cannot be returned to his Junior team that season and must stick with his NHL team. Additionally, players coming out of the CHL also cannot be assigned to the AHL, so if their play falls off, they are stuck with the NHL team for the entire year.

Duclair doesn't fit this criteria based on when he signed his contract. He burns his first year of his ELC no matter what, so the team risks nothing in keeping him, because they can assign him back to Junior at any point in the year if his play deteriorates.
This isn't correct. Buffalo sent Grigorenko back to junior last year.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/24405707/sabres-send-mikhail-grigorenko-back-to-junior-for-second-straight-year

AmericanJesus
10-06-2014, 11:19 AM
Assume this is Duclair related:

:tweet: David Pagnotta ‏@TheFourthPeriod Senators and Rangers both trying to move a forward. So far, no luck.

AmericanJesus
10-06-2014, 11:21 AM
Also, if they're moving a forward, I'd have to image it's got to be one of:

Malone, Stempniak or Kristo.

Pete
10-06-2014, 11:21 AM
Lombardi?

Phil in Absentia
10-06-2014, 11:21 AM
I still don't see how the Rangers can't get one contract out the door. There are plenty of eligible players to move to teams who aren't at the 50 contract limit.

AmericanJesus
10-06-2014, 11:24 AM
Lombardi?

Well, they waived him, so assuming they're not taking a contract back, why wouldn't a team just claim him? Unless we'd be sweetening the pot.

Pete
10-06-2014, 11:24 AM
Well, they waived him, so assuming they're not taking a contract back, why wouldn't a team just claim him? Unless we'd be sweetening the pot.
Shit, you're right. I missed that.

Phil in Absentia
10-06-2014, 12:32 PM
:tweet: @BrettCyrgalis: Duclair said he spoke with AV this morning and was told he's starting with the team. Guess they're going to find a way to shed a contract

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He's in. Rangers just need to find a way to ditch a contract. If Mueller (on waivers as of today) clears, they'll need to complete a trade where they only receive futures or draft picks.

Phil in Absentia
10-06-2014, 12:53 PM
New York Rangers GM Glen Sather is scouring the league, looking around to see if a team is willing to take on one of his extra forwards.

The Rangers want to keep young left wing Anthony Duclair up with the big club, but need to shed contract off the roster.


If the Rangers are unable to trade a player by Tuesday's roster deadline, they might be forced to send Duclair back down.

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/nyr141006.html

Mike
10-06-2014, 01:02 PM
Yeah, our system is packed with potential. We can't even give away one of our dusters.

Phil in Absentia
10-06-2014, 01:08 PM
:tweet: @rangersreport: I still believe the NYR have a deal in place to clear a contract to make room for Duclair. They won't leave it to chance.

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So it seems maybe they're just hoping Mueller is claimed, and if he isn't, they'll pull the trigger on whatever minor deal they have in place.

Mike
10-07-2014, 08:50 AM
I think we all need to see a bigger sample size of what we're going to get from AD. The season didn't even start yet, and people are annointing him as " the duke". That's a little too much pressure to be putting on a 19 year old kid that hasn't played an NHL shift yet. He's already going in with pressure to perform, and will be in a situation where he's relied upon here. He has shown all the signs of being a great player here, and we all want him to get it done in a big way, but there isn't one person that knows for sure what he's going to be like in the future. It's all a guess right now, but the potential is definitely there. Imo, he rides the high, and will be playing with adrenaline that some other players won't have to start the season. I think he'll use that to get off to a good start. Hopefully it's something he can build off of to continue to improve throughout the year. I'm sure they'll be hiccups, it happens to everyone. We just don't want him to hit a wall, and if he's going to fly around with his head down, my statement could be taken literally.

AmericanJesus
10-07-2014, 08:52 AM
I think we all need to see a bigger sample size of what we're going to get from AD. The season didn't even start yet, and people are annointing him as " the duke". That's a little too much pressure to be putting on a 19 year old kid that hasn't played an NHL shift yet. He's already going in with pressure to perform, and will be in a situation where he's relied upon here. He has shown all the signs of being a great player here, and we all want him to get it done in a big way, but there isn't one person that knows for sure what he's going to be like in the future. It's all a guess right now, but the potential is definitely there. Imo, he rides the high, and will be playing with adrenaline that some other players won't have to start the season. I think he'll use that to get off to a good start. Hopefully it's something he can build off of to continue to improve throughout the year. I'm sure they'll be hiccups, it happens to everyone. We just don't want him to hit a wall, and if he's going to fly around with his head down, my statement could be taken literally.

MacKinnon led all rookies with 63 points last season. I expect Duclair to double or triple that. No pressure.

Mike
10-07-2014, 09:03 AM
MacKinnon led all rookies with 63 points last season. I expect Duclair to double or triple that. No pressure.

Anything less, and he'll be the whipping boy.

Pete
10-07-2014, 09:21 AM
Well he's really a first round talent who happened to be there for our 2nd pick...in the third round. So I get it.

JOHN
10-07-2014, 10:22 AM
In many ways, from a long term perspective, Duclair has to succeed. When a team trades away first round picks and consistently selects at the back end of the first round, guys like Duclair need to eventually work out in order for your franchise to continually succeed.

That doesn't mean if he doesn't win ROtY now or doesn't point up big time he should be boo'd out of the place or considered a failure, but a lot is riding on his success and the success of other high ceiling/big floor prospects. If we can't hit a couple of homeruns with these types of picks we are screwed, so not only do you root for Duclair because of his talents and his potential or how awesome it is to see a guy with his skill set actually coming through our organization, but also because in order for us to continue to be a successful team, one that can retool and be fluid (like Chicago, LA, etc.) we need him and others like Buchnevich to be successful/deliver. Hopefully he doesn't know it yet, but a lot rides on his success.

Slobberknocker
10-07-2014, 11:35 AM
Who knows how he does. I haven't a clue. I do believe from his pre season performance he does deserve a look up here but as to how he does when the live ammo starts flying is anyone's guess.

you'll get a good read on his intangibles though and i'm o.k. with that. if he struggles does he start to press... that sort of thing.

last year until that kid Hertl got hurt he looked like he was having a hell of a good time for himself. (not comparing hertl to duclair, just from an age standpoint.)

GordonGecko
10-08-2014, 10:31 AM
This is going to be an interesting ride. He's going to be starting on the 3rd line with Miller centering. That's not going to give him too many easy setups so he'll have to manufacture most of his scoring opportunities. The feeling I get from his comments is that he views this as playing with house money and he's looking to make the most of an opportunity and if it works out great otherwise he has no problem going back to the juniors. It doesn't seem like he's feeling any pressure

Morphinity
10-08-2014, 10:51 AM
This is going to be an interesting ride. He's going to be starting on the 3rd line with Miller centering. That's not going to give him too many easy setups so he'll have to manufacture most of his scoring opportunities. The feeling I get from his comments is that he views this as playing with house money and he's looking to make the most of an opportunity and if it works out great otherwise he has no problem going back to the juniors. It doesn't seem like he's feeling any pressure

Eh, I don't know. Miller can be pretty creative offensively.

jjweimar
10-08-2014, 10:55 AM
Miller is very creative with his passing and now he will have a guy that can finish with him on the third line, but can that line play any D

GordonGecko
10-08-2014, 01:15 PM
I'm just not sold on Miller yet, last year he was so inconsistent. Hopefully this'll be a breakout year for him then Duclair will have his chances

Valriera
10-08-2014, 02:00 PM
I'm just not sold on Miller yet, last year he was so inconsistent. Hopefully this'll be a breakout year for him then Duclair will have his chances

I am also not sold in Miller yet. He has been inconsistent at best for us so far.

Future
10-08-2014, 02:28 PM
Miller is very creative with his passing and now he will have a guy that can finish with him on the third line, but can that line play any D
That's my question too, in part because it's hard to know whether or not they'll be able to establish any type of consistent possession.

I think Malone would be the more natural fit with those two, but maybe Stempniak is a bit more responsible defensively? If nothing else, Miller and Duclair playing together should be plenty exciting.

Niko
10-08-2014, 06:47 PM
I can't believe he's actually going to wear 63. What an ugly number. And now we have 61, 62 and 63 lol

momentum
10-08-2014, 07:38 PM
I can't believe he's actually going to wear 63. What an ugly number. And now we have 61, 62 and 63 lolPut em all on a line WOHOOOOOO

Seriously I think Miller with Duclair is EXCELLENT if it happens...it gives both another good player to work with and they will develop chemistry and feed of each other. Miller is more gifted offensively than given credit for.

phillyb™
10-08-2014, 08:54 PM
I can't believe he's actually going to wear 63. What an ugly number. And now we have 61, 62 and 63 lol

really digging 63.

JOHN
10-08-2014, 08:58 PM
I still am pulling for 25 next year, but maybe he feels like he has to earn his number.

Myusername
10-08-2014, 10:24 PM
Not a fan of 63 either ... bleh

Future
10-08-2014, 11:30 PM
I can't believe he's actually going to wear 63. What an ugly number. And now we have 61, 62 and 63 lol
I thought that was ridiculous, then saw that LA has a 70, 71, 73, 77 lol

GordonGecko
10-09-2014, 07:52 AM
give him 99

Niko
10-09-2014, 08:59 AM
JT Miller should give him 10 lol

Pete
10-10-2014, 11:39 AM
Ho-hum opener for AD63.
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In his regular season debut, Anthony Duclair played 11:12 and did not register a shot attempt or anything else on the NHL stat sheet.

Duclair played with JT Miller and Lee Stempniak and played 3:54 in the first, 3:31 om the second and 3:47 in the third. He did not get a shift in the final 7:38 of the third period.

He also saw 2:08 on the PP.

At 5 on 5, Duclair was on the ice for 7 shot attempts for and 10 against. (HockeyStats)

Larry Brooks writes that Duclair had some “impressive” shifts in the first period but was “ineffective” through the final two periods. (NY Post)

Before the game, Brian Leetch said on MSG, “”It’s not easy, there are a lot of new things that are coming your way but he has had such a good preseason. He forced his way into the lineup. They have games to give him a try. You can’t teach that finishing ability.”
http://snyrangersblog.com/prospects/anthony-duclair/stats-anthony-duclairs-first-regular-season-game/?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Vodka Drunkenski
10-10-2014, 12:10 PM
He looked like a boy out there

phillyb™
10-10-2014, 12:13 PM
he wasn't great out there.
but that article would be singing a different tune if his stick didn't break in the slot. obviously can't play what-ifs, but still...gotta think about for one second...now let it go.

8 more games, eh?
stempniak played really well on a side note.

who was duclair lined with in preseason?

Pete
10-10-2014, 12:15 PM
he wasn't great out there.
but that article would be singing a different tune if his stick didn't break in the slot. obviously can't play what-ifs, but still...gotta think about for one second...now let it go.

8 more games, eh?
stempniak played really well on a side note.

who was duclair lined with in preseason?

No, he can be sent down to junior any time. This contract year is burned no matter where he plays.

Dunny
10-10-2014, 12:27 PM
It never fails. Organization preaches patience on player Y. Player Y plays 4 good games in a meaningless format and player Y is instantly thrown to Wolves.

With his recent injury history, I'll be happy he gets through this year without the brains of Jeff Skinner.

phillyb™
10-10-2014, 12:33 PM
No, he can be sent down to junior any time. This contract year is burned no matter where he plays.

right, but i think he at least earned those 9 games.
and we can't judge him on one regular season game, let alone his first NHL game period.

Puck Head
10-10-2014, 12:51 PM
There is no magic number of 9 games with Duclair ;)

I'd say amount of games Stepan is gone would be a better reference

AmericanJesus
10-10-2014, 12:51 PM
Had to know a game against a team like the Blues would be tough. Playing against boys to playing against men is hard enough. The Blues employ quite a few monsters as well.

Just like his first preseason game wasn't the end all be all on him, neither is one regular season game.

That said if he keeps playing like this then he won't stick long.

Pete
10-10-2014, 12:58 PM
right, but i think he at least earned those 9 games.
and we can't judge him on one regular season game, let alone his first NHL game period.

The 9 games is irrelevant. Number of games has no impact. 4 games, 44 games, 81 games, he can go back to junior. He can go back tomorrow and a year of his deal is gone. The 10 game limit impacts if you burn a year of pro contract by keeping the player in the NHL rather than sending him back to junior.

Keirik
10-10-2014, 01:12 PM
I didn't think he looked that bad last night. Certainly not his best game by any means, but lets not forget it was his first NHL game. Bound to be a bit of nerves.

So Nashty
10-10-2014, 01:13 PM
I didn't think he looked that bad last night. Certainly not his best game by any means, but lets not forget it was his first NHL game. Bound to be a bit of nerves.

im with you. He looked quick as hel on a few plays and I didn't notice any glaring mistakes. I'm sure he's just settling in.

Pete
10-10-2014, 01:16 PM
The thing is, I like how they are deploying him. Manageable minutes, PP time, giving him a chance to succeed. If he falters, it's not because he was put in a bad spot. They're doing the right thing.

JOHN
10-10-2014, 01:21 PM
The thing is, I like how they are deploying him. Manageable minutes, PP time, giving him a chance to succeed. If he falters, it's not because he was put in a bad spot. They're doing the right thing.

Agreed. I also didn't think he looked bad last night. It looked like he tried to bank a couple off Elliot in the first but I guess those weren't registered as shots. He showed his speed and he did have the chance in the slot. What I liked most however is that he didn't look out of place or like he didn't belong. I attribute that to the coaching staff too, again with how they managed him, but there were no negatives last night if anything it was very encouraging from what I saw.

With the exception of Moore, I also don't think there was a bad player on the ice last night. Everyone was making plays.

cousin
10-10-2014, 01:31 PM
I think he was fine. Penalties took us and him out of our game. He was very good early and did not hurt the effort later.

Can't wait for him to gain confidence and really excel with this skill level of players. Don't think he's going anywhere.

Slobberknocker
10-10-2014, 01:35 PM
The thing is, I like how they are deploying him. Manageable minutes, PP time, giving him a chance to succeed. If he falters, it's not because he was put in a bad spot. They're doing the right thing.

for sure. i guess we are about to see that same philosophy employed with our third defensive pairing

:slats:

GordonGecko
10-10-2014, 01:45 PM
There is no magic number of 9 games with Duclair ;)

I'd say amount of games Stepan is gone would be a better reference

That's my sense of it too. I thought he played well, but it doesn't help that he's on a crap line with JT Miller. I only see Larry Brooks complaining though. I'd love to see what he can do with a couple shifts on the top two, but I don't know if he's gonna get that chance until he makes something happen on the 3rd line

And what is up with all these fucking broken sticks past couple years

Pete
10-10-2014, 01:50 PM
Miller was great last night. So was Stempniak. That's far from "crap" line mates, and certainly better line mates than guys like Miller got upon their arrival.

Slobberknocker
10-10-2014, 02:01 PM
funny thing with this board and it shows up constantly in the game threads that you live and die with every play.

give the guy till new years and by than you'll have a pretty good sample of things. i always view the nhl in quarters. opening day till new year, new year to playoff, playoff to finals and finals in how the intensity ramps up.

NYR2711
10-10-2014, 02:07 PM
The thing is, I like how they are deploying him. Manageable minutes, PP time, giving him a chance to succeed. If he falters, it's not because he was put in a bad spot. They're doing the right thing.

I agree, I just wish they had him with some better/more experienced players. I don't know how much he will accomplish playing with Stempniak and Miller. Would rather see Malone working with him, IMO, they can be similar players.

Pete
10-10-2014, 02:08 PM
funny thing with this board and it shows up constantly in the game threads that you live and die with every play.

give the guy till new years and by than you'll have a pretty good sample of things. i always view the nhl in quarters. opening day till new year, new year to playoff, playoff to finals and finals in how the intensity ramps up.

any* board.

Thump23
10-10-2014, 02:17 PM
I agree, I just wish they had him with some better/more experienced players. I don't know how much he will accomplish playing with Stempniak and Miller. Would rather see Malone working with him, IMO, they can be similar players.

The coaches want to see that he can keep up with the pace of play at this level and that he's competent defensively. Next step is to show them he can create offense for himself - get to soft spots in the offensive zone, get in good shooting position, not get pushed off the puck along the boards, things like that. Once he starts showing that, they can look to move him up. He's already getting chances on the PP, and if he doesn't break his stick, maybe he pots one last night.

He's fine on the 3rd line for now, prove you can do the things that are expected of you in the neutral and defensive zones, then worry about the offensive.

NYR2711
10-10-2014, 02:23 PM
The coaches want to see that he can keep up with the pace of play at this level and that he's competent defensively. Next step is to show them he can create offense for himself - get to soft spots in the offensive zone, get in good shooting position, not get pushed off the puck along the boards, things like that. Once he starts showing that, they can look to move him up. He's already getting chances on the PP, and if he doesn't break his stick, maybe he pots one last night.

He's fine on the 3rd line for now, prove you can do the things that are expected of you in the neutral and defensive zones, then worry about the offensive.

Im not complaining he is on the third line, I just want him to have a little better of a player than Stempniak or a guy like Miller who is still fighting to stay up with the team as well. IMO, Malone should be on that line with the both of them to work with them in between shifts. I also feel that both Miller and Duclair play similar games to Malone, so they can learn a little bit more from a guy like him over Stemp.

Thump23
10-10-2014, 02:25 PM
Im not complaining he is on the third line, I just want him to have a little better of a player than Stempniak or a guy like Miller who is still fighting to stay up with the team as well. IMO, Malone should be on that line with the both of them to work with them in between shifts. I also feel that both Miller and Duclair play similar games to Malone, so they can learn a little bit more from a guy like him over Stemp.

I thought Stempniak was pretty good last night. I worry about Malone's speed and his ability to keep up with Miller and Duclair. Personally, I think you need to give Duclair at least a few games with the same line mates, or at least one of them, let him get comfortable with whoever they decide he fits best with.

Pete
10-10-2014, 02:28 PM
I think Malone's game is nothing like Duclair's. I think Miller and Malone showed something, and I expect at some point that Hagelin will switch with Duclair.

Slobberknocker
10-10-2014, 02:28 PM
any* board.

but i like this board

NYR2711
10-10-2014, 02:29 PM
I thought Stempniak was pretty good last night. I worry about Malone's speed and his ability to keep up with Miller and Duclair. Personally, I think you need to give Duclair at least a few games with the same line mates, or at least one of them, let him get comfortable with whoever they decide he fits best with.

I agree that he should stay with the same line mates, but as a rookie, he needs to work with a good veteran presence to help him correct things while on the bench in between shifts, Miller too. Two rookies working on the same line without a strong veteran presence may not be that good for their progress.

Pete
10-10-2014, 02:29 PM
but i like this board

Yea, we're not bad. :chug:

Pete
10-10-2014, 02:30 PM
I agree that he should stay with the same line mates, but as a rookie, he needs to work with a good veteran presence to help him correct things while on the bench in between shifts, Miller too. Two rookies working on the same line without a strong veteran presence may not be that good for their progress.
What's Stempniak?

Thump23
10-10-2014, 02:32 PM
I agree that he should stay with the same line mates, but as a rookie, he needs to work with a good veteran presence to help him correct things while on the bench in between shifts, Miller too. Two rookies working on the same line without a strong veteran presence may not be that good for their progress.

Isn't Stempniak a vet though? I don't have a problem with them trying Malone there, I just have no idea how he'll do playing at that pace. They had Miller on the 4th line at practice today and Hayes centering Duclair and Stempniak. Could be they just gave Glass the day off or they could want to see what Hayes does with those two.

Every game this team can possibly win with these young kids in the lineup is a very good thing. I hope they find some early success.

Pete
10-10-2014, 02:36 PM
Isn't Stempniak a vet though? I don't have a problem with them trying Malone there, I just have no idea how he'll do playing at that pace. They had Miller on the 4th line at practice today and Hayes centering Duclair and Stempniak. Could be they just gave Glass the day off or they could want to see what Hayes does with those two.

Every game this team can possibly win with these young kids in the lineup is a very good thing. I hope they find some early success.

If that's true, it pretty much shows that AV just has something against Miller. The worst thing you can say about Miller is that he was bad on draws. He was all over the ice, had some great shifts, didn't turn pucks over, couldn't really have done any more to earn his role.

Thump23
10-10-2014, 02:39 PM
If that's true, it pretty much shows that AV just has something against Miller. The worst thing you can say about Miller is that he was bad on draws. He was all over the ice, had some great shifts, didn't turn pucks over, couldn't really have done any more to earn his role.

They did give Glass a maintenance day, although... why not just have Malone skate in Glass' spot? I thought Miller was good as well, all those penalties in the 2nd really ruined the flow of the game. It's early and I doubt Miller goes anywhere. Anxious to see if Hayes gets a crack though, his size would be a tremendous asset.

*edit* now Glass has back issues, game time decision tomorrow

cousin
10-10-2014, 03:36 PM
If that's true, it pretty much shows that AV just has something against Miller. The worst thing you can say about Miller is that he was bad on draws. He was all over the ice, had some great shifts, didn't turn pucks over, couldn't really have done any more to earn his role. That's not fair to AV. He's trying to adjust according to players in the pool. JT is going to play where AV thinks he can help the team win. He's not benching the guy.

Pete
10-10-2014, 03:39 PM
That's not fair to AV. He's trying to adjust according to players in the pool. JT is going to play where AV thinks he can help the team win. He's not benching the guy.

I don't see how it's not fair. If you think coaches play favorites, I don't know what to tell you. Many of them do, and it's all because they "feel" this guy or that "gives them the best chance to win". But sometimes they are wrong. How long did AV wait to drop Richards down the lineup when it was so obvious to everyone else? And we criticized him for it, and we were right because he eventually did it. Was that "unfair"?

cousin
10-10-2014, 07:37 PM
I don't see how it's not fair. If you think coaches play favorites, I don't know what to tell you. Many of them do, and it's all because they "feel" this guy or that "gives them the best chance to win". But sometimes they are wrong. How long did AV wait to drop Richards down the lineup when it was so obvious to everyone else? And we criticized him for it, and we were right because he eventually did it. Was that "unfair"?Sure they play favorites but you have no proof AV has something against Miller. AV discusses saturday's lineup here and he mentions both JT and the duke in a favorable light. http://www.blueshirtsunited.com/video/av-lineup-saturday?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=tweets&utm_content=twitter_1412981144 There is a good line in here regarding Malone as well.

Pete
10-10-2014, 07:38 PM
Sure they play favorites but you have no proof AV has something against Miller. AV discusses saturday's lineup here and he mentions both JT and the duke in a favorable light. http://www.blueshirtsunited.com/video/av-lineup-saturday?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=tweets&utm_content=twitter_1412981144 There is a good line in here regarding Malone as well.


No one has proof of anything. I'm stating an opinion based on evidence.

Myusername
10-10-2014, 07:40 PM
Needs some confidence. He isn't very strong, but I think he can still be effective despite that. Blues had the lowest GA in the West last season (and not by a little)... I expected him to have a quiet game.

cousin
10-10-2014, 08:05 PM
No one has proof of anything. I'm stating an opinion based on evidence.I see. A conclusion based on a preponderance of evidence but no proof. Hope you never get selected on my jury.

Pete
10-10-2014, 08:07 PM
I see. A conclusion based on a preponderance of evidence but no proof. Hope you never get selected on my jury.

Depends if the case is criminal or civil.

But this isn't a court of law.

Why are you pursuing conflict?

cousin
10-10-2014, 08:11 PM
Depends if the case is criminal or civil.

But this isn't a court of law.

Why are you pursuing conflict?Im not. Just kidding should have used a smiley.

I like Miller too.

Pete
10-10-2014, 08:15 PM
Im not. Just kidding should have used a smiley.

I like Miller too.

Oh, my bad then. :cheers:

SyKeS
10-16-2014, 01:35 PM
Where does the Duke fit in on this team once Stepan returns?

Puck Head
10-16-2014, 02:20 PM
Where does the Duke fit in on this team once Stepan returns?

I imagine that has everything to do with how he develops and performs up until that time.
As of now we have 4 top 6 wingers that I don't see shifted down the depth chart.
MSL, Kredier, Nash, Zucc.

So depends on if one of those, OR Duclair is shifted down to 3rd line.
My "dream" is that Miller finds his way into a 3rd line ceterman role, and then have a vet along side, (Stemp or Malone).
But that shifts Hagelin down to 4th line.

RichieNextel305
10-16-2014, 03:21 PM
Personally, if Duclair sticks around, I don't hate the idea of someone like Hagelin playing with Moore and maybe Malone. Yeah, it's a 4th line, but it'd be a 4th line with size, defensive responsibility, speed, some skill and some finishing ability. Maybe something like:

Nash-Stepan-St. Louis
Kreider-Brassard-Zuccarello
Duclair-Hayes-Stempniak
Hagelin-Moore-Malone

Puck Head
10-16-2014, 03:29 PM
I would just be hesitant of moving Nash from the right side (his natural) to the right.

RichieNextel305
10-16-2014, 03:34 PM
You can flip those 2 then. If St. Louis can play center, he can flip wings.

Dunny
10-16-2014, 03:43 PM
But St. Louis can't play center.

RichieNextel305
10-16-2014, 03:44 PM
He is right now. I'd rather have MSL switch sides on a wing than Nash at this point.

Future
10-16-2014, 03:47 PM
Personally, if Duclair sticks around, I don't hate the idea of someone like Hagelin playing with Moore and maybe Malone. Yeah, it's a 4th line, but it'd be a 4th line with size, defensive responsibility, speed, some skill and some finishing ability. Maybe something like:

Nash-Stepan-St. Louis
Kreider-Brassard-Zuccarello
Duclair-Hayes-Stempniak
Hagelin-Moore-Malone
I have no problem at all with Hagelin as a 4th liner. His best role is as a checker anyways.

AmericanJesus
10-16-2014, 03:55 PM
But St. Louis can't play center.

He's having a problem with the defensive aspect of being a center. He's been really good on draws, considering what I expected. So far he's 49.1%. That's actually a significant step up from where Stepan was last season (45.2%). Can he play RW? I don't know. It changes his passing and shooting angles even more than playing center. It would be significantly easier a defensive shift, I'd imagine. That said, I don't know that I'd switch him or Nash when MZA has played both wings and so has Duclair. I think we should have enough flexibility without moving one of Nash or MSL to the left.

Stempniak - Stepan - Nash
Kreider - Brassard - MZA
Duclair - Miller/Hayes - MSL
Hagelin - Moore - Malone/Glass/Fast

With the possibility of switching Stemp and Duke depending on how either is playing and if Duclair falls off and gets sent down, we can slot Malone and Hagelin up on the left side, if need be. Really, once Stepan gets back, we're in really good forward shape once every gets going.

McDougalfaschnitzer
10-17-2014, 09:49 AM
I feel like St. Louis isn't able to get into the offensive spots during a rush that he excels in as a center, not to mention the defensive responsibilities that may drain him more in a shift.

Pete
10-17-2014, 10:06 AM
He's having a problem with the defensive aspect of being a center. He's been really good on draws, considering what I expected. So far he's 49.1%. That's actually a significant step up from where Stepan was last season (45.2%). Can he play RW? I don't know. It changes his passing and shooting angles even more than playing center. It would be significantly easier a defensive shift, I'd imagine. That said, I don't know that I'd switch him or Nash when MZA has played both wings and so has Duclair. I think we should have enough flexibility without moving one of Nash or MSL to the left.

Stempniak - Stepan - Nash
Kreider - Brassard - MZA
Duclair - Miller/Hayes - MSL
Hagelin - Moore - Malone/Glass/Fast

With the possibility of switching Stemp and Duke depending on how either is playing and if Duclair falls off and gets sent down, we can slot Malone and Hagelin up on the left side, if need be. Really, once Stepan gets back, we're in really good forward shape once every gets going.

MSL? He's always been a RW...Or do you mean Duclair?

AmericanJesus
10-17-2014, 10:09 AM
MSL? He's always been a RW...Or do you mean Duclair?

Shit, I meant LW for MSL. I know Duclair has played both.

cousin
10-17-2014, 03:54 PM
The duke sat out the 3rd period last night. Didn't see where he screwed up. Hope he gets one soon and gets going.

JOHN
10-17-2014, 03:59 PM
The duke sat out the 3rd period last night. Didn't see where he screwed up. Hope he gets one soon and gets going.

It's not about screwing up, it's about protecting yourself in a tight game late where you're looking for some momentum after a string of very disappointing games. It's also protecting him from making a mistake and getting into a rut.

Respecttheblue
10-17-2014, 05:08 PM
I have no problem at all with Hagelin as a 4th liner. His best role is as a checker anyways.

While Hagelin is a good forechecker, I don't like the idea of him in a role that deprecates his offensive ability — if that's the case, and I'm not sure it is.

Now, if he is given a center who can make plays/does not have hands/feet of stone (preferably not a fellow midget), and another winger who can dig and create offense, and he gets comparable minutes to those his previous seasons' track records indicate he can best use, then go ahead. After all we should be (have been?) a four-line team.


What I think is going on here though is that Hags has under-produced so far this season and his plus-minus is looking way crappy too; ergo demotion. And if that's what it takes to wake his ass up, so be it.
The bottom six forwards, whoever they may be on any given day — have not produced much and most of the D hasn't helped a great deal, either.

Pete
10-17-2014, 05:10 PM
Led the team in playoff goals -> Goes to the 4th line.

torontonyr
10-17-2014, 05:38 PM
Rick Nash - terrible in playoffs -> Goes to top 1st line.

Pete
10-17-2014, 05:42 PM
He was always on the top line though.

torontonyr
10-17-2014, 05:47 PM
Sure, but the point is still clear - we're in a league of "what have you done for me lately".

cousin
10-17-2014, 10:10 PM
I have no problem at all with Hagelin as a 4th liner. His best role is as a checker anyways.me either. Good PKer

Phil in Absentia
10-17-2014, 10:12 PM
I have no problem at all with Hagelin as a 4th liner. His best role is as a checker anyways.

Makes too much for that role, ultimately. For spot duty, fine, but ultimately this guy is gonna get paid, and even at the $2.25M he's at now, he's too expensive as a fourth-line player.

cousin
10-17-2014, 10:13 PM
Personally, if Duclair sticks around, I don't hate the idea of someone like Hagelin playing with Moore and maybe Malone. Yeah, it's a 4th line, but it'd be a 4th line with size, defensive responsibility, speed, some skill and some finishing ability. Maybe something like:

Nash-Stepan-St. Louis
Kreider-Brassard-Zuccarello
Duclair-Hayes-Stempniak
Hagelin-Moore-Malone

Like it. Wouldn't mind seeing kreider hayes Duclair.

Valriera
10-18-2014, 08:44 AM
You could put anyone with Nash right now and he'd probably score, the dude is on fire.

That said, I think Duke definitely looks a little shellshocked on the top line out there, and would be happy shielding him a bit and playing him on 3rd line with someone with a bit of playmaking ability like Hayes. Truth is, that Duke-Hayes-Stempniak line is actually really strong, just nobody has ever heard of any of those guys in the league, except Stemp. It will also allow a guy who can clearly play at this level to grow a little bit and practice with NHL players some more until he gets used to the pace and weight of the game.

SaveByRichter35
10-18-2014, 11:39 AM
Nash-Stepan-St. Louis
Kreider-Brassard-Zuccarello
Duclair-Hayes-Stempniak
Hagelin-Moore-Malone
I love this lineup. Man I cannot wait until everyone is back and healthy in the right spot. I hope AV gives this or something similar a shot.




Stempniak - Stepan - Nash
Kreider - Brassard - MZA
Duclair - Miller/Hayes - MSL
Hagelin - Moore - Malone/Glass/Fast

This could work too if Stempniak can keep up his play.


Man, the possibilities with this roster can be phenominal. I wish everyone would hurry up and get healthy!

Bretzky
10-18-2014, 04:33 PM
Makes too much for that role, ultimately. For spot duty, fine, but ultimately this guy is gonna get paid, and even at the $2.25M he's at now, he's too expensive as a fourth-line player.

For a year or two, he isn't, because having guys like Duclair and Hayes on ELC's in the lineup playing top-9 roles allows a guy like Hagelin (who would otherwise be in that top-9 role, to slide down and basically have a third line as your fourth. Even having Stempniak in the lineup at 900k, in a top-9 role, allows us to have a guy making 2.25 on the fourth line if it helps put the best lineup on the ice that way.

Not everything is so black and white anymore.

Look at the most recent Stanley Cup champs. Do you think Mike Richards makes too much to be on the fourth line? Because he was their fourth line center when it mattered most (and they had the luxury of doing so precisely for the same reason: because Pearson and Toffoli grabbed top-9 roles while on ELC's. It's a great problem to have.

!br-avery!
10-18-2014, 08:58 PM
You could put anyone with Nash right now and he'd probably score, the dude is on fire.

That said, I think Duke definitely looks a little shellshocked on the top line out there, and would be happy shielding him a bit and playing him on 3rd line with someone with a bit of playmaking ability like Hayes. Truth is, that Duke-Hayes-Stempniak line is actually really strong, just nobody has ever heard of any of those guys in the league, except Stemp. It will also allow a guy who can clearly play at this level to grow a little bit and practice with NHL players some more until he gets used to the pace and weight of the game.
I don't think he looked shell shocked at all.To me he seems pretty confident for the most part but maybe like you said it'll help him playing on a lower more low key line.Time will tell.

Mike
10-19-2014, 08:09 AM
A friend told me that Duclair will be scratched tonight. Isn't it a bit early for that info to come out? Has anyone else seen/heard that?

Drew a Penalty
10-19-2014, 08:13 AM
A friend told me that Duclair will be scratched tonight. Isn't it a bit early for that info to come out? Has anyone else seen/heard that?

:tweet:@AGrossRecord: AV says couple things factor into Duke healthy scratch: 1. 5 G/8 days; 2. Wants Duke in top 9Fs and no spot vs. SJ

Mike
10-19-2014, 08:17 AM
:tweet:@AGrossRecord: AV says couple things factor into Duke healthy scratch: 1. 5 G/8 days; 2. Wants Duke in top 9Fs and no spot vs. SJ

When was that tweeted? Just curious

Drew a Penalty
10-19-2014, 08:17 AM
When was that tweeted? Just curious

20 hours ago. So around the time the Rangers held practice.

Mike
10-19-2014, 08:19 AM
20 hours ago. So around the time the Rangers held practice.

Thanks Drew

leetchy2
10-19-2014, 09:25 AM
:tweet:@AGrossRecord: AV says couple things factor into Duke healthy scratch: 1. 5 G/8 days; 2. Wants Duke in top 9Fs and no spot vs. SJ

This logic from AGross makes no sense. For one there are many others on the Rangers who played 5 games in 8 days. I'm sure if anyone can handle that it is a fit 19-year old. Second, you go with the best players you got. Just because Duke may be pushed to the 4th line is no reason by itself to scratch a player if he is better than the 4th line left winger. After all, what the hell has Tanner Glass done in his 5 games with the Rangers??? Wouldn't it make more sense to play Duclair on the 4th line over Glass than scratch him altogether?

Drew a Penalty
10-19-2014, 09:31 AM
This logic from AGross makes no sense. For one there are many others on the Rangers who played 5 games in 8 days. I'm sure if anyone can handle that it is a fit 19-year old. Second, you go with the best players you got. Just because Duke may be pushed to the 4th line is no reason by itself to scratch a player if he is better than the 4th line left winger. After all, what the hell has Tanner Glass done in his 5 games with the Rangers??? Wouldn't it make more sense to play Duclair on the 4th line over Glass than scratch him altogether?

It's not Gross's logic, it's Vigneault's.

And no it doesn't make sense to play Duclair on the fourth line. Duclair's game doesn't fit the fourth line at all whereas someone like Glass is built for that role. Duclair isn't a grinder and would be forced to play a checking role he isn't used to. If he hast to sit, he has to sit. The team needs to solve its center problem and right now Duclair is the odd man out because of that.

Mike
10-19-2014, 09:39 AM
This logic from AGross makes no sense. For one there are many others on the Rangers who played 5 games in 8 days. I'm sure if anyone can handle that it is a fit 19-year old. Second, you go with the best players you got. Just because Duke may be pushed to the 4th line is no reason by itself to scratch a player if he is better than the 4th line left winger. After all, what the hell has Tanner Glass done in his 5 games with the Rangers??? Wouldn't it make more sense to play Duclair on the 4th line over Glass than scratch him altogether?
This is exactly the logic that's been discussed in other threads. Players fit a certain role. Just because Duclair is a better player than Glass, doesn't make him better for the role Glass plays. Same logic when putting Richards on the 4th line. He doesn't fit there.

leetchy2
10-19-2014, 10:03 AM
And where is it written that the 4th line has to be a "checking line" or "grinding line" instead of one that is productive? What if your team had the following five centers on the roster: Mark Messier, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Joe Sakic and Craig MacTavish. Do you think MacTavish should play over one of the others on the 4th line because he better suits "the role of a 4th line player better"? IMO, you play your best overall players, and right now Tanner Glass simply sucks. I don't care if the 4th line "role" supposedly fits Glass better than Duclair, unless the purpose of the 4th line is to give up more goals than it scores. I think the 4th line would be more productive overall having Duclair working with Moore & Malone over Glass, and that's the bottom line.

Pete
10-19-2014, 10:10 AM
And where is it written that the 4th line has to be a "checking line" or "grinding line" instead of one that is productive? What if your team had the following five centers on the roster: Mark Messier, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Joe Sakic and Craig MacTavish. Do you think MacTavish should play over one of the others on the 4th line because he better suits "the role of a 4th line player better"? IMO, you play your best overall players, and right now Tanner Glass simply sucks. I don't care if the 4th line "role" supposedly fits Glass better than Duclair, unless the purpose of the 4th line is to give up more goals than it scores. I think the 4th line would be more productive overall having Duclair working with Moore & Malone over Glass, and that's the bottom line.

Those centers wouldn't fit under the cap and the final score of the game would be 14-11.

Drew a Penalty
10-19-2014, 10:14 AM
And where is it written that the 4th line has to be a "checking line" or "grinding line" instead of one that is productive? What if your team had the following five centers on the roster: Mark Messier, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Joe Sakic and Craig MacTavish. Do you think MacTavish should play over one of the others on the 4th line because he better suits "the role of a 4th line player better"? IMO, you play your best overall players, and right now Tanner Glass simply sucks. I don't care if the 4th line "role" supposedly fits Glass better than Duclair, unless the purpose of the 4th line is to give up more goals than it scores. I think the 4th line would be more productive overall having Duclair working with Moore & Malone over Glass, and that's the bottom line.

Do you want Duclair playing against John Scott and Adam Burish? I don't. Over the last year our fourth line has grinded and cycled. Duclair doesn't fit there. You rarely see scorers on the fourth line. You don't need a productive fourth line, you need a good one. Complain about Glass all you want, but he's more suited for that role than Duclair.

leetchy2
10-19-2014, 10:25 AM
I've seen no evidence that Glass is able to cycle & grind and keep the puck in the other team's end either.

AmericanJesus
10-19-2014, 10:30 AM
I think when AV brings up 5 games in 8 nights it is as much about physically wearing out Duclair as it is the learning process. He's getting video to review and learn from each game.

Choosing this particular game makes sense too. Play him against Carolina and sit him against San Jose.

AV, when the decision was made to keep Duclair up, said that he had to be in the top 9 to play and that he might not play every game. It was a smart comment to make at the time that way too much doesn't get made out of a game decision like this.

AmericanJesus
10-19-2014, 10:33 AM
And where is it written that the 4th line has to be a "checking line" or "grinding line" instead of one that is productive? What if your team had the following five centers on the roster: Mark Messier, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Joe Sakic and Craig MacTavish. Do you think MacTavish should play over one of the others on the 4th line because he better suits "the role of a 4th line player better"? IMO, you play your best overall players, and right now Tanner Glass simply sucks. I don't care if the 4th line "role" supposedly fits Glass better than Duclair, unless the purpose of the 4th line is to give up more goals than it scores. I think the 4th line would be more productive overall having Duclair working with Moore & Malone over Glass, and that's the bottom line.

If the fourth line you are playing against had all bruisers on it, you don't put your 19 year old skill player who keeps his head down too much and was concussed last season playing against children out against them.

I don't care to see what happens to Duclair when he looks down to dangle the puck at she same moment John Scott decides to step up on him. It won't be pretty.

jjweimar
10-19-2014, 11:42 AM
With Scott and Burish, you need Glass and Malone on your fourth line. This is a game where you may see something out of J. Moore he is willing to drop the gloves too. No reason for Duclair on the 4th line in this game. Mueller, Glass, Malone will be able to handle the physical play of those players and be able to be slotted if necessary with other skilled players to stop anything dirty if it ever came to that. Malone could slot onto any line, Glass would have to be a very specific player on a line if it looked like SJ was going to put goons on the ice against our top players, in which case AV puts one of Malone or Glass on the ice to protect players, smart coaching. Duclair can use some extra time watching video and practicing, if he can start producing when he comes back I suspect next game, then he has a shot at staying when Stepan gets moved up. I don't like the idea of Hags on the 4th, I think it purely puts him in a defensive position on the ice, yeah be fast on the forecheck but your job is to play D and hit, he doesn't hit very much. He belongs on the third, unfortunately we're running out of winger spots, I'd expect a winger to be traded after Stepan comes back in a package with someone else like prostpects for a Center or Dman

Pete
10-19-2014, 12:08 PM
What's it say that Duclair didn't fit in the top 9, though?

Mike
10-19-2014, 12:58 PM
What's it say that Duclair didn't fit in the top 9, though?

That he went from the Duuuuuuuke to Whoclair in 10 days?

Jules
10-19-2014, 01:14 PM
What's it say that Duclair didn't fit in the top 9, though?

That AV went with safer options and considers the MSL at center idea over. Whether Mueller is a better player or not is irrelevant, I guess, and he rather has players with more big game experience than a 19-year old. Duclair is a great young player, but he's not a phenom yet and we aren't rebuilding.

Myusername
10-19-2014, 03:04 PM
I think Duclair has played more games than any other Rangers player thus far and he's a rookie. He played in every preseason game in addition to every regular season one. He needs a rest

edit: actually, I think he might have sat for the first preseason game. Still, a lot of games for someone not used to it

Pete
10-19-2014, 03:09 PM
How isn't he used to it? His season ended early last year, no? He's 19. He can't babe tired.

AmericanJesus
10-19-2014, 03:17 PM
How isn't he used to it? His season ended early last year, no? He's 19. He can't babe tired.

There is physically tired and mentally tired. I could see him being mentally tired at this point. Juniors to NHL as far as what you are expected to learn game to game has to be a huge transition.

Ranger Lothbrok
10-19-2014, 03:24 PM
So I'm guessing now he goes back after the 9 games?

Puck Head
10-19-2014, 03:28 PM
So I'm guessing now he goes back after the 9 games?


There is no 9 game limit in regards to Duclair.
He can or will be sent back at any time, a certain amount of games does not factor into equation.

Dunny
10-19-2014, 04:58 PM
I think he gets one more 6-8 game run in the top 6 and then back to Junior, hopefully in time for WJC's.

Puck Head
10-22-2014, 09:01 PM
It has to be time to send Duclair back to Jr's.

We are missing one of our top 9, (Stepan), and the Duke's not in the lineup.
Time to go let him play somewhere.

TwoMinutesForNothing
10-22-2014, 11:27 PM
He had 3 points in his first 5 NHL games. He should be in the lineup.

Cash or Czech?
10-22-2014, 11:40 PM
He had 3 points in his first 5 NHL games. He should be in the lineup.

We got outscored 11-5 in the two games that he had points in, so lets not get ahead of ourselves. The team is playing a complete game and IMO Duclair isn't ready for that just yet. I agree with Puckhead, the kid should be getting playing time and that's not gonna be in New York right now.

Mike
10-22-2014, 11:45 PM
He had 3 points in his first 5 NHL games. He should be in the lineup.

Pretty short sighted basis. There's a lot more to it than getting a few assists. Maybe AV wants him to watch a few games, and then give him another shot. Maybe he needs to polish his game up. Maybe he goes back to junior. Whatever it is, people thought he needed to watch a couple of games for now.

Phil in Absentia
10-22-2014, 11:51 PM
He was going to end up going back to Junior at some point this year regardless. It's a matter of when, because once he's assigned, he's lost for the year.

GordonGecko
10-23-2014, 12:07 AM
It has to be time to send Duclair back to Jr's.

We are missing one of our top 9, (Stepan), and the Duke's not in the lineup.
Time to go let him play somewhere.

Dude what are you talking about - AV just set him up to earn his keep at home in Montreal. Saturday is make or break

Mike
10-23-2014, 12:48 AM
Dude what are you talking about - AV just set him up to earn his keep at home in Montreal. Saturday is make or break

Are you saying that AV sat him to fire him up for the Montreal game because it's his home town?

leetchy2
10-23-2014, 01:13 AM
I've said it several times, I think it's pre-mature to send Duke back to Juniors, a place he's already mastered. Even after sitting out the last two games, he's still top 6 in scoring, top 4 in +/-. In contrast Tanner Glass is tied for last with Cam Talbot in scoring and tied for last in +/-. On top of that Duclair was one of our best players in pre-season.

So if you were an opposing team, which line would you rather face ... Glass - Moore - Malone or the line of Duclair - Moore - Malone? I think the latter has a better chance to keep the puck in the offensive zone. Glass hasn't shown squat, except losing fights, and hasn't shown any strong ability to kill penalties or to cycle the puck down low with his linemates.

Plus if we send Duclair back to juniors what happens if a top 6 forward goes down. Duclair gives us the best option of filling in.

Pete
10-23-2014, 06:27 AM
It's a shame he isn't AHL eligible, because that's where he belongs right now.

Now maybe he mastered junior, but tough luck...He's not ready for the NHL and not eligible for the AHL.

Having him play here on the 4th line simply because people don't like Glass just isn't smart. There are 3-4 guys in Hartford right now who I'd put on the 4th line before Duclair.

Seems like people don't get the word "role".

Vodka Drunkenski
10-23-2014, 06:32 AM
And the word development

NYRangers723
10-23-2014, 08:27 AM
I understand Duclair is a fan favorite and people want him to play but unforunetly there is no room for him especiallv when stepan comes back. The Rangers are on a roll now to so there is no need to change the lines. He is only 19 years old so there is no rush.

Vodka Drunkenski
10-23-2014, 08:41 AM
Dude what are you talking about - AV just set him up to earn his keep at home in Montreal. Saturday is make or break

Dude, please tell me you're kidding.

Pete
10-23-2014, 08:49 AM
I understand Duclair is a fan favorite and people want him to play but unforunetly there is no room for him especiallv when stepan comes back. The Rangers are on a roll now to so there is no need to change the lines. He is only 19 years old so there is no rush.

Bingo. 100% accurate. :repped:

AmericanJesus
10-23-2014, 09:00 AM
Duclair's problem getting back in the lineup is that the Rangers are winning. If they lost to the Devils 3-1 I suspect he'd be back in the lineup next game. His play got progressively less impressive as he played so it was time to sit for a game. One game turned to two when they dominated the Sharks. Two likely turns to three now that they marched back against the Devils.

Just as 5 games is too little to know whether he does belong on the NHL roster, it's also too short a stretch to know if he should be sent down. I doubt they would have sat him this long if they thought it was time to send him down after the Carolina game. If that was the case, he'd have watched a game then got sent down with instruction on what they wanted him to work on.

There probably is a period of time where it's too long to sit, but I'd have to imagine he learns and develops a good amount practicing with the Rangers. More than playing games in Juniors? I don't know, but if he is NHL ready and just needs a bit of a sheltered start, then that's got to be better for his development than getting sent back to Juniors.

Time really will tell.

Phil in Absentia
10-23-2014, 09:11 AM
Duclair's problem getting back in the lineup is that the Rangers are winning. If they lost to the Devils 3-1 I suspect he'd be back in the lineup next game. His play got progressively less impressive as he played so it was time to sit for a game. One game turned to two when they dominated the Sharks. Two likely turns to three now that they marched back against the Devils.

Just as 5 games is too little to know whether he does belong on the NHL roster, it's also too short a stretch to know if he should be sent down. I doubt they would have sat him this long if they thought it was time to send him down after the Carolina game. If that was the case, he'd have watched a game then got sent down with instruction on what they wanted him to work on.

There probably is a period of time where it's too long to sit, but I'd have to imagine he learns and develops a good amount practicing with the Rangers. More than playing games in Juniors? I don't know, but if he is NHL ready and just needs a bit of a sheltered start, then that's got to be better for his development than getting sent back to Juniors.

Time really will tell.

That's not his only problem. One of the biggest is that his skill set requires other skilled players to find success. He's not going to find that playing with some rotation of fourth-line players. But even if you were willing to patrol him on the fourth line, with Kreider, Hagelin, Zuccarello and Glass all giving each of their lines what it needs (maybe not Zucc, but are you yanking him for Duclair?), where does he even slot in? He's a LW. They're all LW's. Who are you moving in and around just to get this kid into the line-up? Least of all when the team is on a three-game winning streak? Seems awfully selfish to me.

I'm with PuckHead here. It's probably time to send him to Junior where he can get back to playing full-time. He had a cup of coffee with the big club, made them out of camp and produced in his short stint — those are all positives to take with you back to Junior so you continue to develop and grow as a player, which makes next years' roster decisions that much harder when you come in demanding a full-time spot again.

Future
10-23-2014, 09:14 AM
I understand Duclair is a fan favorite and people want him to play but unforunetly there is no room for him especiallv when stepan comes back. The Rangers are on a roll now to so there is no need to change the lines. He is only 19 years old so there is no rush.
Yep, a loss to the Devils and maybe things change, but it's hard to tinker too much with a team that has won three straight, even if it hasn't all been pretty.

GordonGecko
10-23-2014, 09:28 AM
Are you saying that AV sat him to fire him up for the Montreal game because it's his home town?

yes


Dude, please tell me you're kidding.

no

AmericanJesus
10-23-2014, 09:29 AM
That's not his only problem. One of the biggest is that his skill set requires other skilled players to find success. He's not going to find that playing with some rotation of fourth-line players. But even if you were willing to patrol him on the fourth line, with Kreider, Hagelin, Zuccarello and Glass all giving each of their lines what it needs (maybe not Zucc, but are you yanking him for Duclair?), where does he even slot in? He's a LW. They're all LW's. Who are you moving in and around just to get this kid into the line-up? Least of all when the team is on a three-game winning streak? Seems awfully selfish to me.

I'm with PuckHead here. It's probably time to send him to Junior where he can get back to playing full-time. He had a cup of coffee with the big club, made them out of camp and produced in his short stint — those are all positives to take with you back to Junior so you continue to develop and grow as a player, which makes next years' roster decisions that much harder when you come in demanding a full-time spot again.

If I'm GM? I look at Hartford and realize we've got depth there for 4-9 forwards. Time to make a move to improve a weakness or two. The two weaknesses we have is defensive depth and at center. Not sure what we can do at center without moving one of Stepan or Brassard, so we're probably stuck there. Hunwick's done a remarkable job so far and Klein has stepped up as well, but J. Moore to me is dying on the vine.

So who do I dangle as a primary part of a trade? Hagelin. Duclair, if he develops, is basically Hagelin with a little less defensive ability, but a boatload more skill. Probably a hair slower, but Duclair can play either wing as well. And with Hagelin up for a new contract, this will be a cost saving measure as well. If we trade Hagelin and Duclair isn't ready, we can slot in Lindberg, Fast, Miller, Bourque, etc, etc, without skipping too much of a beat.

So:

Kreider - Hayes - Nash
MZA - Brassard - MSL
Duclair - Moore - Stempniak
Glass - Mueller - Malone

And when Stepan gets back, you drop Mueller or Hayes to the AHL, Stepan takes that top line spot and the other guy drops to the third line. At the same time, we improve our defense.

Myusername
10-23-2014, 09:35 AM
We are winning, but that's irrespective of Duclair being in the lineup. I wouldn't get too excited over a short winning streak... those wins came again a deplorable Carolina team, an old ass NJ team and a Sharks team on their last legs. I generally disagree with him sitting since he's done enough to be in the lineup offensively and has not been a liability defensively. I can understand why AV has chosen to though.

I think being less impressive over time had more to do with Duclair playing too many games (5 in 8 days) than him not "being ready". In that time I saw a lot of good from him and not a lot of bad. The only thing he can really improve on is moving his feet a little bit more. I still stand by the idea that sending him back to juniors is going to be a waste for him. He's far gone from playing 16-17 year olds. Kind of a shitty situation for him really... he at least deserves to be in the AHL (I think that 20 year old rule should be abolished honestly).

Guess sending him back won't hurt him, but I think he's NHL ready or very close at least. This team was #18 in scoring last season. We could use someone with some actual finishing ability is all I'm sayin'. Not the end of the world though

Pete
10-23-2014, 09:53 AM
Sorry, but 5 in 8 days is nothing for a 19 year old who didn't play a full season last year.

Sending him back now just gets you a highly motivated player who's more physically mature, and has an AHL backup plan next season.

Again, no player ever got worse for being allowed to develop.

Phil in Absentia
10-23-2014, 10:15 AM
If I'm GM? I look at Hartford and realize we've got depth there for 4-9 forwards. Time to make a move to improve a weakness or two. The two weaknesses we have is defensive depth and at center. Not sure what we can do at center without moving one of Stepan or Brassard, so we're probably stuck there. Hunwick's done a remarkable job so far and Klein has stepped up as well, but J. Moore to me is dying on the vine.

So who do I dangle as a primary part of a trade? Hagelin. Duclair, if he develops, is basically Hagelin with a little less defensive ability, but a boatload more skill. Probably a hair slower, but Duclair can play either wing as well. And with Hagelin up for a new contract, this will be a cost saving measure as well. If we trade Hagelin and Duclair isn't ready, we can slot in Lindberg, Fast, Miller, Bourque, etc, etc, without skipping too much of a beat.

So:

Kreider - Hayes - Nash
MZA - Brassard - MSL
Duclair - Moore - Stempniak
Glass - Mueller - Malone

And when Stepan gets back, you drop Mueller or Hayes to the AHL, Stepan takes that top line spot and the other guy drops to the third line. At the same time, we improve our defense.

Not that I'm against the idea of moving Hagelin, or gaining organizational depth, but that seems awfully selfish to me to move him specifically just to make sure that a 19-year old Duclair has a place on this team. I don't think he's shown enough to warrant that response yet — not when he's still Junior eligible, and isn't going to suffer for it any. This isn't like a Kristo situation, for example, where the player is basically on his last leg, and really needs to just shit or get off the pot.

Duclair won't get worse being sent back. He'll be hungrier next season when the AHL is a fall-back option. I don't deal Hagelin now just to get Duclair into this line-up when it's not a necessity yet.


Sorry, but 5 in 8 days is nothing for a 19 year old who didn't play a full season last year.

Sending him back now just gets you a highly motivated player who's more physically mature, and has an AHL backup plan next season.

Again, no player ever got worse for being allowed to develop.

:thumbs:

AmericanJesus
10-23-2014, 10:16 AM
Sorry, but 5 in 8 days is nothing for a 19 year old who didn't play a full season last year.

Sending him back now just gets you a highly motivated player who's more physically mature, and has an AHL backup plan next season.

Again, no player ever got worse for being allowed to develop.

I said it before, there is physically tired and mentally tired. A 19 year old should be fine physically with that kind of work load. Trying to learn as much as you can and apply it to your next game is a different matter.

As far as a player getting worse for being allowed to develop, while this is true, it has to be the right kind of development. Playing under or over your ability can both hurt your development. If he's sent back to Juniors, there is a good chance he'll dominate because he's so much better/more developed than his competition. Dominating can be good, but it can also slow your development because you're not having to learn how to play against stronger opposition.

AmericanJesus
10-23-2014, 10:20 AM
Not that I'm against the idea of moving Hagelin, or gaining organizational depth, but that seems awfully selfish to me to move him specifically just to make sure that a 19-year old Duclair has a place on this team. I don't think he's shown enough to warrant that response yet — not when he's still Junior eligible, and isn't going to suffer for it any. This isn't like a Kristo situation, for example, where the player is basically on his last leg, and really needs to just shit or get off the pot.

Duclair won't get worse being sent back. He'll be hungrier next season when the AHL is a fall-back option. I don't deal Hagelin now just to get Duclair into this line-up when it's not a necessity yet.



:thumbs:

I'm not saying to move him to find a spot for Duclair. I'm saying move him because including Duclair, we can slot in 4-5 other guys in his spot without much of a drop off, and one of them at least stands a fair chance of being an improvement. At the same time, all of those options will improve our cap position and Hagelin should have a pretty good value in regards to upgrading a spot where we're weaker. In short, it's not trade Hagelin, Duclair takes his spot. It's trade Hagelin, if Duclair can take his spot great, if not, send Duclair down and fill the spot with one of the other handful of guys who should be ready.

Phil in Absentia
10-23-2014, 10:24 AM
I'm not saying to move him to find a spot for Duclair. I'm saying move him because including Duclair, we can slot in 4-5 other guys in his spot without much of a drop off, and one of them at least stands a fair chance of being an improvement. At the same time, all of those options will improve our cap position and Hagelin should have a pretty good value in regards to upgrading a spot where we're weaker. In short, it's not trade Hagelin, Duclair takes his spot. It's trade Hagelin, if Duclair can take his spot great, if not, send Duclair down and fill the spot with one of the other handful of guys who should be ready.

I don't know if that's necessarily true, though. Is there someone available right now who can step in and give you the same 15-15-30-type production, along with penalty killing and maybe even power play time? Miller was just sent to the AHL. He still seems to have some developing to do before he's a full-time NHL player. Fast also seems to have a ceiling that I'm not sure he can match Hagelin on. Duclair is probably the closest, but it seems like an unnecessary risk. At least today. Talk to me closer to the deadline and my mind might change — especially if it might mean a substantial upgrade up the middle.

Mike
10-23-2014, 10:59 AM
yes



no
I think you're making too much of it. AV isn't playing a chess game with his team to get 1 19 year old player fired up to play in his home town for the 8th game of the season. If you keep things simple in hockey, it's not hard to figure out. It seems like you're looking for a dramatic moment that really doesn't exist even if he does play, and pots 3 goals.

Valriera
10-23-2014, 11:08 AM
He had a cup of coffee with the big club, made them out of camp and produced in his short stint — those are all positives to take with you back to Junior so you continue to develop and grow as a player, which makes next years' roster decisions that much harder when you come in demanding a full-time spot again.

This is the best argument for sending him back. Duclair has done nothing but impress everyone this year. He scored points. He played with and against strong players, and he got a taste for what the games in the NHL are like. Keeping this guy on the team this year will not make us win a Stanley Cup, so there's no reason to keep him here and out of the lineup, or in a fourth line role that he will not perform well in. Send him back with the pat on the back and "see you next year".

I'm also in full support of moving Hagelin...at the trade deadline. That guy will get paid this year, and I don't want to be the team stuck with him demanding $5-6M. We all know it's going to happen. He will earn a ransom at the deadline for sure.

Pete
10-23-2014, 11:20 AM
I said it before, there is physically tired and mentally tired. A 19 year old should be fine physically with that kind of work load. Trying to learn as much as you can and apply it to your next game is a different matter.

As far as a player getting worse for being allowed to develop, while this is true, it has to be the right kind of development. Playing under or over your ability can both hurt your development. If he's sent back to Juniors, there is a good chance he'll dominate because he's so much better/more developed than his competition. Dominating can be good, but it can also slow your development because you're not having to learn how to play against stronger opposition.

I don't believe that Duclair will become worse by going to junior. I just don't. He has a lot to look forward to, he's never played WJCs, he had his cup of coffee here.

Phil in Absentia
10-23-2014, 11:27 AM
This is the best argument for sending him back. Duclair has done nothing but impress everyone this year. He scored points. He played with and against strong players, and he got a taste for what the games in the NHL are like. Keeping this guy on the team this year will not make us win a Stanley Cup, so there's no reason to keep him here and out of the lineup, or in a fourth line role that he will not perform well in. Send him back with the pat on the back and "see you next year".

I'm also in full support of moving Hagelin...at the trade deadline. That guy will get paid this year, and I don't want to be the team stuck with him demanding $5-6M. We all know it's going to happen. He will earn a ransom at the deadline for sure.

I don't think Hagelin will command that much, but I do agree he's going to get a sizable raise, likely in the $4M~ range per season. Too rich for my blood based on the needs of this team.

Myusername
10-23-2014, 11:58 AM
Sorry, but 5 in 8 days is nothing for a 19 year old who didn't play a full season last year.

Sending him back now just gets you a highly motivated player who's more physically mature, and has an AHL backup plan next season.

Again, no player ever got worse for being allowed to develop.

Yeah, that can't be true. It's just harder to prove that someone regressed by staying in juniors because usually they are already so far above the competition that even if they regress they will still put up a substantial amount of points. Unless the drop in numbers is significant, you would have to watch him play regularly to come to any kind of conclusion. Meanwhile, if he doesn't light it up in the NHL right away people will be crying foul that "we ruined him or bust" before the all-star break.

I just think that Duclair will improve in the areas he actually needs to improve much quicker if he continues to play against better competition. We've already seen that he has a laser for a shot and is offensively gifted in many other ways. He needs to improve his defense and other small things, which I doubt will happen in what is probably the most offensive minded junior league there is.

Myusername
10-23-2014, 12:00 PM
I don't think Hagelin will command that much, but I do agree he's going to get a sizable raise, likely in the $4M~ range per season. Too rich for my blood based on the needs of this team.

I don't think he'll get that just yet. As of now he's a good two-way third liner, but not anything more really. Those kind of player only fetch $4+ million if they are already established. Hagelin has just a few seasons under his belt.

Also, he's off to a pretty slow start... 1 point in 7 games. He better pick it up if he wants $4+ million

Phil in Absentia
10-23-2014, 12:04 PM
I don't think he'll get that just yet. As of now he's a good two-way third liner, but not anything more really. Those kind of player only fetch $4+ million if they are already established. Hagelin has just a few seasons under his belt.

Also, he's off to a pretty slow start... 1 point in 7 games. He better pick it up if he wants $4+ million

This is true. But that's also why I'm using the ~ range. I'd say it's give or take $500K (or so) at this point. Breakout year? Yeah, I could see him going as high as $4.5M per, based on years bought (if they go long-term). Shorter term? $3.5M minimum, considering his actual salary this season is $2.4M. Players tend to use actual salary, plus about a million, this early in this career when jumping to third contract.

Pete
10-23-2014, 12:17 PM
Yeah, that can't be true. It's just harder to prove that someone regressed by staying in juniors because usually they are already so far above the competition that even if they regress they will still put up a substantial amount of points. Unless the drop in numbers is significant, you would have to watch him play regularly to come to any kind of conclusion. Meanwhile, if he doesn't light it up in the NHL right away people will be crying foul that "we ruined him or bust" before the all-star break.

I just think that Duclair will improve in the areas he actually needs to improve much quicker if he continues to play against better competition. We've already seen that he has a laser for a shot and is offensively gifted in many other ways. He needs to improve his defense and other small things, which I doubt will happen in what is probably the most offensive minded junior league there is.

Well then I'll wait while you find an organization who said about a star player "Wow, we really fucked him up by taking our time with him."

Dunny
10-23-2014, 12:20 PM
Loan to Europe would be best. I'm mostly worried about getting his eggs scrambled again.

I'm excited to see him in the WJC's, very likely on a line with McDavid.

Vodka Drunkenski
10-23-2014, 12:21 PM
I don't see how Duclair will improve himself by playing on the 4th line against better competition. Defensive flaws to his game can be taught at lower levels by good coaching.

MacTruck
10-23-2014, 12:55 PM
I don't think he'll get that just yet. As of now he's a good two-way third liner, but not anything more really. Those kind of player only fetch $4+ million if they are already established. Hagelin has just a few seasons under his belt.

Also, he's off to a pretty slow start... 1 point in 7 games. He better pick it up if he wants $4+ million

Hagelin is definitely established.

He's won 6 playoff series in 3 years
He's scored 96 points in 191 games (over 0.5 PPG)
He scored 7 goals in 25 playoff games last year (2nd on the team)
He's arguably this team's best defensive forward
He is among the fastest players in the NHL

He's a lock for $4m+ '

Duclair should be sent down. There is no spot for him without an injury, unless we move Stempniak/Hagelin to the 4th permanently which I don't see happening.

Future
10-23-2014, 01:05 PM
I don't believe that Duclair will become worse by going to junior. I just don't. He has a lot to look forward to, he's never played WJCs, he had his cup of coffee here.
Agreed that he won't become worse, but I think my concern is whether or not he actually gets any better. He's already dominated at the junior level, what does another year there really do for him, other than keep him playing every night?

Pete
10-23-2014, 01:08 PM
Agreed that he won't become worse, but I think my concern is whether or not he actually gets any better. He's already dominated at the junior level, what does another year there really do for him, other than keep him playing every night?

It keeps him playing every night. He's in limbo right now. It's so clear to me that he needs some AHL seasoning that he isn't going to get. He might even had went down and been a mid-season call-up. But that option just isn't available right now. He's a victim of circumstance. What's also clear to me is that he isn't going to get better by NOT playing.

I understand the infatuation with the kid, but being a fan of is isn't a reason to keep him in the NHL. Lots of kids in his situation go back to junior. Being in the NHL at 19 is rough. Being in the NHL at 20 is rough. But at least you can go down to the AHL and get your bearings.

Thump23
10-23-2014, 01:48 PM
The only way Duclair was going to stick around is if his play made it virtually impossible for management to send him back to juniors. It hasn't. In fairness to him, he's only played in a few games but with the way the schedule shook out and the team in the midst of a winning streak, you have to wonder when he'll get another shot.


Agreed that he won't become worse, but I think my concern is whether or not he actually gets any better. He's already dominated at the junior level, what does another year there really do for him, other than keep him playing every night?

Worst case scenario, another year let's him mature a bit physically. He needs to be playing, a lot. Doesn't seem like he's going to get that opportunity here, it's best if he goes and plays 20+ a night, in every situation. Then he has WJs.

GordonGecko
10-23-2014, 01:54 PM
I think you're making too much of it. AV isn't playing a chess game with his team to get 1 19 year old player fired up to play in his home town for the 8th game of the season. If you keep things simple in hockey, it's not hard to figure out. It seems like you're looking for a dramatic moment that really doesn't exist even if he does play, and pots 3 goals.

I think the way it went down is AV thought duke needed a breather so he was a healthy scratch on the first game. Then the Rangers won and everything clicked so he had to make a decision. He decided to stay with a good thing and not touch the lineup, also taking into consideration that this would mean a long period of rest for tony D and the opportunity to really prove what he can do in Montreal where he'll be fully rested and most motivated to put a good showing in front of his hometown crowd. If he doesn't show something there, then his days will be numbered before he gets sent down this year.

Thump23
10-23-2014, 01:59 PM
I think the way it went down is AV thought duke needed a breather so he was a healthy scratch on the first game. Then the Rangers won and everything clicked so he had to make a decision. He decided to stay with a good thing and not touch the lineup, also taking into consideration that this would mean a long period of rest for tony D and the opportunity to really prove what he can do in Montreal where he'll be fully rested and most motivated to put a good showing in front of his hometown crowd. If he doesn't show something there, then his days will be numbered before he gets sent down this year.

I don't think tiredness/needing rest even comes into the equation. The kid is 19, not a 38 year old vet with cranky knees.

Myusername
10-23-2014, 02:26 PM
I'm just wondering what the coaching staff's expectations were for Duclair to begin with. Remember, they are the ones that decided that he should start with the team based on his preseason performance... it wasn't the fans. He hasn't replicated his preaseason performance (understandable), but 3 points (all primary assists) in 5 games is nice start for a young player coming into the league, realistically speaking. If you're going to keep him around then at the least give him more than 5 friggin' games to show he belongs.

I like this lineup, but I guarantee you the lines will be switched come the next lose or losing streak. I think they could find a nice medium where he is slotted in and out of lines as they become stale (which will happen) to freshen them up. I don't see why he has to be perennially relegated to playing with Glass and Moore.

Myusername
10-23-2014, 02:27 PM
I don't think tiredness/needing rest even comes into the equation. The kid is 19, not a 38 year old vet with cranky knees.

The quote from A.V. contradicts that

Vodka Drunkenski
10-23-2014, 02:33 PM
I think the way it went down is AV thought duke needed a breather so he was a healthy scratch on the first game. Then the Rangers won and everything clicked so he had to make a decision. He decided to stay with a good thing and not touch the lineup, also taking into consideration that this would mean a long period of rest for tony D and the opportunity to really prove what he can do in Montreal where he'll be fully rested and most motivated to put a good showing in front of his hometown crowd. If he doesn't show something there, then his days will be numbered before he gets sent down this year.

You're putting wayyyyyy too much thought into this

Slobberknocker
10-23-2014, 02:54 PM
hard to say what the staff thinks at the moment. ill take it that they wanted to ice a bigger line against the sharks and it worked so carry it over for the dev's game which can get chippy.

no way does this kid need to be a 4th liner.

nothing wrong with having played a few and now sit out and watch a bit. he's still practicing with the team.

i read something the other day thought that if/when he is sent down he cant come back. is this true?

Thump23
10-23-2014, 02:59 PM
The quote from A.V. contradicts that

What quote was that?

leetchy2
10-23-2014, 09:16 PM
hard to say what the staff thinks at the moment. ill take it that they wanted to ice a bigger line against the sharks and it worked so carry it over for the dev's game which can get chippy.

no way does this kid need to be a 4th liner.

nothing wrong with having played a few and now sit out and watch a bit. he's still practicing with the team.

i read something the other day thought that if/when he is sent down he cant come back. is this true?

Correct, once he is sent to Juniors he can't come back this season.

Bretzky
10-24-2014, 02:10 AM
Correct, once he is sent to Juniors he can't come back this season.

Are you sure about this?

I know there was some misinformation going around about the 9-game rule. The 9-game rule only has to do with his ELC. It's not that he can't be sent to juniors after the 9th game. He could play 10, 20, 40, 60 games and still be sent down to juniors after that.

I guess what you're saying is that if he is returned to juniors, he can't be recalled until his junior season is over? I had never heard that, but I'll take your word for it for now. Can anyone else confirm this 100%? Thanks.

Bretzky
10-24-2014, 02:48 AM
If he's scratched for Saturday's game, can we please start a

PLAY - DU - CLAIR!

PLAY - DU - CLAIR!

chant!?


I know the game is in Montreal, but we always have a lot of fans there so all of you Frenchies, get it going!

Worst case scenario, we start the PLAY - DU - CLAIR ! chant on Monday at MSG against Minnesota, but I have a feeling Duclair will be playing before then.

LET'S GO RANGERS!!!

I start to lose my mind when there are too many days off in between games like this!!!

AmericanJesus
10-24-2014, 09:09 AM
Are you sure about this?

I know there was some misinformation going around about the 9-game rule. The 9-game rule only has to do with his ELC. It's not that he can't be sent to juniors after the 9th game. He could play 10, 20, 40, 60 games and still be sent down to juniors after that.

I guess what you're saying is that if he is returned to juniors, he can't be recalled until his junior season is over? I had never heard that, but I'll take your word for it for now. Can anyone else confirm this 100%? Thanks.

Considering that during the lockout the NHL had to work out a special exception for teams to be allowed to list up to three junior players that would be available to them mid-juniors season if the lockout ended, I would assume the old rules are still in place. Once a player rejoins their junior team they can't be brought up until their team's season is over. This includes the playoffs.

Myusername
10-24-2014, 09:11 AM
Are you sure about this?

I know there was some misinformation going around about the 9-game rule. The 9-game rule only has to do with his ELC. It's not that he can't be sent to juniors after the 9th game. He could play 10, 20, 40, 60 games and still be sent down to juniors after that.

I guess what you're saying is that if he is returned to juniors, he can't be recalled until his junior season is over? I had never heard that, but I'll take your word for it for now. Can anyone else confirm this 100%? Thanks.

It's true, that's why I would give him a longer look

Myusername
10-24-2014, 09:13 AM
What quote was that?

This.


:tweet:@AGrossRecord: AV says couple things factor into Duke healthy scratch: 1. 5 G/8 days; 2. Wants Duke in top 9Fs and no spot vs. SJ

Could just be an excuse, but it's not really A.V. to sugarcoat things

Phil in Absentia
10-24-2014, 09:18 AM
If he's scratched for Saturday's game, can we please start a

PLAY - DU - CLAIR!

PLAY - DU - CLAIR!

chant!?


I know the game is in Montreal, but we always have a lot of fans there so all of you Frenchies, get it going!

Worst case scenario, we start the PLAY - DU - CLAIR ! chant on Monday at MSG against Minnesota, but I have a feeling Duclair will be playing before then.

LET'S GO RANGERS!!!

I start to lose my mind when there are too many days off in between games like this!!!

"WE ARE SEL-FISH!" is a lot more à propos considering the team is on a winning streak and fans are calling for line-up changes.

Thump23
10-24-2014, 10:11 AM
This.



Could just be an excuse, but it's not really A.V. to sugarcoat things

I buy that he wants the kid in the top 9, but the 5 games in 8 days things seems like a stretch considering he played the first three and hasn't dressed since. I don't buy the fatigue thing.

AmericanJesus
10-24-2014, 10:25 AM
I buy that he wants the kid in the top 9, but the 5 games in 8 days things seems like a stretch considering he played the first three and hasn't dressed since. I don't buy the fatigue thing.

5 games in 8 days could mean more than just physically tired. As far as getting back in the lineup, that's a different story. I'd imagine the plan was to sit him for a game, have him watch the team play, do homework and then get back in the lineup. The results from that lineup are what have kept him out further, I would think. Most coaches won't change a winning lineup unless a top player is ready to come back in. So would Mueller sit for Stepan coming back in the lineup? Sure. But would Malone sit and would the lines get shuffled for Duclair? No. And that's as it should be.

Thump23
10-24-2014, 10:29 AM
5 games in 8 days could mean more than just physically tired. As far as getting back in the lineup, that's a different story. I'd imagine the plan was to sit him for a game, have him watch the team play, do homework and then get back in the lineup. The results from that lineup are what have kept him out further, I would think. Most coaches won't change a winning lineup unless a top player is ready to come back in. So would Mueller sit for Stepan coming back in the lineup? Sure. But would Malone sit and would the lines get shuffled for Duclair? No. And that's as it should be.

I agree with all of this.

Myusername
10-24-2014, 11:37 AM
5 games in 8 days could mean more than just physically tired. As far as getting back in the lineup, that's a different story. I'd imagine the plan was to sit him for a game, have him watch the team play, do homework and then get back in the lineup. The results from that lineup are what have kept him out further, I would think. Most coaches won't change a winning lineup unless a top player is ready to come back in. So would Mueller sit for Stepan coming back in the lineup? Sure. But would Malone sit and would the lines get shuffled for Duclair? No. And that's as it should be.

I'd probably do the same honestly. I don't think he's getting sent back anytime soon though. Has there actually been a report that presents this as a possibility? Sitting for 3 games does not necessarily mean A.V. plans to ship him back just yet

TwoMinutesForNothing
10-24-2014, 11:56 AM
He's going back in.

:tweet: Jim Cerny ‏@JimCerny 49m49 minutes ago
looking like Duclair could be back in and play in his hometown of Montreal--he is skating with D. Moore and Hagelin, while Malone is extra

AmericanJesus
10-24-2014, 12:44 PM
He's going back in.

:tweet: Jim Cerny ‏@JimCerny 49m49 minutes ago
looking like Duclair could be back in and play in his hometown of Montreal--he is skating with D. Moore and Hagelin, while Malone is extra

Seems right to me. Malone didn't show very much and Montreal is a fast team.

JOHN
10-24-2014, 12:45 PM
As long as he isn't a liability (and it sounds like he won't be on that line) it's a good place to swap him for Malone. The Habs are quick and aren't too big, and that's a matchup he's better suited for than Malone.

AmericanJesus
10-24-2014, 12:49 PM
:tweet: @stevezipay AV jokes that he expects a couple free suits from Duclair's uncle for putting him in lineup in Montreal, where The Duke has family, friends

:tweet: @stevezipay Actually, AV says Duclair, who has sat out two games, deserves a chance to play; has practiced well

Everything you read about this kid tells you whether he makes it now, sometime in the future or even not at all, he's got a pro's mentality.

RichieNextel305
10-24-2014, 02:23 PM
Agreed. The last thing you want from a talented 19-year old is for him to think he deserves anything. Duclair is showing he knows he has to prove it at this level, and is proving he can't and won't get frustrated at the first signs of trouble. He's young. He's learning. He'll be a fine player for this team moving forward.

DiJock94
10-24-2014, 04:04 PM
I don't know if it's the best idea to send him back to juniors. I mean even if he had to be a healthy scratch for 30 games he would still play basically the same amount of games. At a level that will also challenge him to be better. There's no real benefit to sending him back. They burned a year of his elc either way

SaveByRichter35
10-24-2014, 04:17 PM
Plus better practices.

TwoMinutesForNothing
10-24-2014, 04:59 PM
No way a team that struggles to find offense in the playoffs every season should be sending a player like him away. His type of speed and creativity is the very thing our offensive philosophy is built on. You let him learn and develop here, even if he has to come in and out of the lineup a few times. It would be different if we could send him back and then bring him back up after his Junior season for the stretch run and playoffs, but his Junior team is hosting the Memorial Cup, meaning his season won't be ending until the Stanley Cup Finals are happening.

SaveByRichter35
10-24-2014, 05:12 PM
I know we can't send him down and bring him up again but can we loan him to Hockey Canada for the WJC? I think I remember some NHL kids from other clubs going and some being denied permission to go within the last few years but I don't remember if they would have had to have been sent back down to their club first.

Pete
10-24-2014, 06:28 PM
I know we can't send him down and bring him up again but can we loan him to Hockey Canada for the WJC? I think I remember some NHL kids from other clubs going and some being denied permission to go within the last few years but I don't remember if they would have had to have been sent back down to their club first.

Yes.

Pete
10-24-2014, 06:29 PM
No way a team that struggles to find offense in the playoffs every season should be sending a player like him away. His type of speed and creativity is the very thing our offensive philosophy is built on. You let him learn and develop here, even if he has to come in and out of the lineup a few times. It would be different if we could send him back and then bring him back up after his Junior season for the stretch run and playoffs, but his Junior team is hosting the Memorial Cup, meaning his season won't be ending until the Stanley Cup Finals are happening.

There's no way a team with Cup aspirations should be relying on a player like him in the playoffs.

Myusername
10-24-2014, 06:46 PM
He could be end up being an x-factor though

Pete
10-24-2014, 08:53 PM
So could Matt Hunwick. Just like Doug Lidster.

TwoMinutesForNothing
10-24-2014, 09:23 PM
Yeah, Hunwick's possession numbers look very good so far, just wish he was a righty so he could play with Staal.

If Duclair is in he is a Calder candidate. That would help any team in the playoffs. He has the type of natural hockey sense that most players can never learn. He'll be naturally making things happen on offense any time he's in the lineup.

Dunny
10-24-2014, 10:25 PM
I really want to believe that.

Pete
10-25-2014, 07:17 AM
Bigger, better, and more experienced players have been shut down in the playoffs.

Too many expectations placed on the kid.

The Dude
10-25-2014, 10:43 AM
Agreed. The last thing you want from a talented 19-year old is for him to think he deserves anything. Duclair is showing he knows he has to prove it at this level, and is proving he can't and won't get frustrated at the first signs of trouble. He's young. He's learning. He'll be a fine player for this team moving forward.


Yeah and a team that got pushed around and man handled for years, shouldn't be sitting a front of the net presence that can play on any line and not be out of place.

I think Malone has been really damn good in every game he's played. No need to sit him just to play some kid in his home town. Teams been winning and AV is going to mess with the lineup? Crap. You dont sit Malone. Maybe Zuccs as a message. Hes been invisible.

torontonyr
10-25-2014, 01:21 PM
You can take everything away from Duclair, but you'd still be left with a player who possess one hell of a trigger. I wasn't as impressed as some with his pre-season efforts, and even less with his limited showcase in the NHL - but he did show a knack for turning meager chances into banked results by simply using his outstanding shot.

I'm not sure he's quite ready for the big leagues, at least not yet, but if he can find time and space to get that shot off - he may wind up prolonging his current stay.

torontonyr
10-25-2014, 01:22 PM
Yeah and a team that got pushed around and man handled for years, shouldn't be sitting a front of the net presence that can play on any line and not be out of place.

I think Malone has been really damn good in every game he's played. No need to sit him just to play some kid in his home town. Teams been winning and AV is going to mess with the lineup? Crap. You dont sit Malone. Maybe Zuccs as a message. Hes been invisible.

I think the rational is that Montreal is a speedy team that doesn't mind trading chances. If you're going to be fighting fire with fire, you're probably going to need all the gas you can get. Plus, obviously, the hometown deal plays a factor too.

Dunny
10-25-2014, 04:03 PM
Zucc has been a complete non-factor. Very troubling.

Pete
10-25-2014, 04:04 PM
Zucc has been a complete non-factor. Very troubling.

I'd agree, but he started slow last year, too. And I bet he's still banged up.

Dunny
10-25-2014, 05:08 PM
I remember. He was a healthy scratch and all that good stuff.

Arbitrary endpoint alert but in his last 32 games including playoffs he has 14 points.

NYRangers723
10-25-2014, 05:31 PM
Zucc has been a complete non-factor. Very troubling.

true but i bet he snaps out of his funk Soon . Personally i think he is injured after taking a beating the first two games. In regards to duclair i always loved the kid but he is getting too much praise on the nhl level. When stepan comes back there will be no room. Despite what some say going back to juniors isnt the worst thing fir a 19 year old

Dunny
10-25-2014, 06:07 PM
He fucking better or he's going to cost me a lot of $$$ in one of my pools.

leetchy2
10-25-2014, 06:46 PM
Since the majority seem to think Duclair isn't NHL ready then how about packaging him in a trade for an established center? Maybe we can fleese Galchenyuk from Monteal for Duke plus whatever else. We would get a young center that would solidfiy our roster down the middle & would be a good fit for AV's system, and Montreal gets a home town kid that they seem to like so much.

Dunny
10-25-2014, 06:49 PM
Well the simple answer is that Montreal would have to be retarded to make that specific trade.

Entry level contracts that can produce for your team are the single most valuable thing in a cap world. Let's just take a deep breath and have a little patience.

NYRangers723
10-25-2014, 07:01 PM
Since the majority seem to think Duclair isn't NHL ready then how about packaging him in a trade for an established center? Maybe we can fleese Galchenyuk from Monteal for Duke plus whatever else. We would get a young center that would solidfiy our roster down the middle & would be a good fit for AV's system, and Montreal gets a home town kid that they seem to like so much.

what is the rush with this kid. He is gonna be a impact player it just might not be this year

cousin
10-25-2014, 07:13 PM
Obviously they feel he's too good for juniors but too young for Hartford. AV will do right by the kid and the team. Hell of a dilemma to have with a young player. I trust the coach.

leetchy2
10-25-2014, 07:17 PM
No rush with this kid, I just would like to put the best players on the ice for our team, and so far I've seen nothing to suggest that he's not one of our top 12 fowards.

SaveByRichter35
10-26-2014, 12:12 PM
No rush with this kid, I just would like to put the best players on the ice for our team, and so far I've seen nothing to suggest that he's not one of our top 12 fowards.

He's a 19 year old rookie. Patience is a virtue...

EdMc28
10-26-2014, 12:30 PM
He's third on the team in points and a plus 5. I really don't have a problem with the way AV is using him. Let him play vs the smaller quicker teams that don't hit as much and toss Malone in there on nights when we need a more physical presence.