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View Full Version : What do we do with Marc Staal?



RangersFan
07-04-2014, 11:40 AM
Staal has a year left on his contract and he will probably make over 5 mil. What do we do with him? Trade him? Resign him? I would like to resign him but having 20 mil locked up in 4 defensemen doesnt seem like a good idea in a cap world. Thoughts?

Chizz
07-04-2014, 12:10 PM
Trade him. He'll demand 5mil per and he doesn't deserve it. Get value for him while we can.


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Dunny
07-04-2014, 12:11 PM
Of course he deserves 5 million.

Chizz
07-04-2014, 12:17 PM
Why? Because he plays solid defense? He's had Girardi and Stralman as his partners. A lot of players would succeed with those 2 by their sides. There are 2 sides to a hockey player. Offense and defense. He plays solid defense and contributes very little offense. In order to get paid towards the top at your position, you need to play well on both sides of the puck.


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Chizz
07-04-2014, 12:25 PM
His cap hit from his last contract is currently 3.975. What has he done to warrant a raise?


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Dunny
07-04-2014, 12:54 PM
What did he do? Achieved UFA status. That's all he really needs to do.

CreaseCrusader91
07-04-2014, 12:58 PM
Why? Because he plays solid defense? He's had Girardi and Stralman as his partners. A lot of players would succeed with those 2 by their sides. There are 2 sides to a hockey player. Offense and defense. He plays solid defense and contributes very little offense. In order to get paid towards the top at your position, you need to play well on both sides of the puck.


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Not every defenseman making big money plays both sides of the game. Just saying.

Chizz
07-04-2014, 12:59 PM
What did he do? Achieved UFA status. That's all he really needs to do.

That's where I call bullshit. You don't get a raise because your contract is up. You need to earn it. He hasn't.


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Chizz
07-04-2014, 01:01 PM
Not every defenseman making big money plays both sides of the game. Just saying.

Of course. That's what's wrong with the NHL. Some of these players are making absurd amounts of money for such little skill. It'll continue happening. Doesn't make it right.


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Gunnar Stahl
07-04-2014, 01:02 PM
Staal to the Canes for Semin and Justin Falk :D

Pete
07-04-2014, 01:18 PM
Why? Because he plays solid defense? He's had Girardi and Stralman as his partners. A lot of players would succeed with those 2 by their sides... Oh it's quite the opposite, IMO. Girardi should thank Staal and McD for his fat contract.

A good portion of the advanced stats community feel he hooks McD back. That's for another thread though.

Staal carries his own weight, and then some. I'd rather have paid Staal than G. A thousand times over.

Chizz
07-04-2014, 01:22 PM
You're thinking along the same lines as I am. I believe Staal and Girardi really helped each other. They had great chemistry. I don't believe Girardi should have been given such a lucrative contract. I would've been ok with $4.5 mil. At the time I didn't think it was a terrible contract but in such a short period of time it's become more apparent that he was overpaid. I really don't want to go down the same road with Staal.


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CreaseCrusader91
07-04-2014, 01:26 PM
Of course. That's what's wrong with the NHL. Some of these players are making absurd amounts of money for such little skill. It'll continue happening. Doesn't make it right.


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I really think you are undervaluing Staal. But you are entitled to your opinion. As to your point about a raise, when he signed his last deal, his contract took up 6.691919191919192 percent of the salary cap. Cap for next year could be $73M, so I will use that. $5M a year would take up 6.8493150684931505 of the salary cap, and it would be a .15 increase in salary. That is nothing to sneeze at. I feel he is valued more than that, but agree it makes sense to trade him because he has value.

This guy is one of the league's best defenders that has overcome concussions and an eye injury. He has shown he has played amazing defensively, he can be physical and I don't blame him for having low offensive numbers. Lets see how he does this year before writing him off.

Chizz
07-04-2014, 01:28 PM
I believe Staal is an important part of this team. I just don't believe we can tie up so much money with our top 4 dmen. If we could trade Girardi and get a nice return, I'd much rather do that but I believe he has a NTC.


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Puck Head
07-04-2014, 01:34 PM
I'm somewhat disappointed in Staal, always thought he'd become what McDonagh has.
That being said, the market will set with Staal can get, and that will be a hefty pay raise.
UFA means everything here.

CreaseCrusader91
07-04-2014, 01:42 PM
I believe Staal is an important part of this team. I just don't believe we can tie up so much money with our top 4 dmen. If we could trade Girardi and get a nice return, I'd much rather do that but I believe he has a NTC.


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Here are some rough figures.

NYR
Girardi-$5.5M
McDonagh-$4.7M
Staal $5.0M
Boyle $4.5M, two year deal that eventually is replaced by Moore or ELC defender (Skjei)
-----------------------------------
$19.7M for top four defense

CHI
Seabrook $5.8 M
Keith $5.538 M, funky math deal that they benefit from previous CBA
Hjalmarsson $4.1M
Oduya $3.375 M, UFA next year
-----------------------------------
$18.81M for top four defense

BOS
Chara $6.9
Seidenberg $4M
Boychuk $3.36, due for raise next summer
Hamilton 894K, ELC due for raise
-----------------------------------
$15.154M for top four defense

LAK
Doughty- $7M
Voynov- $4.16M
Greene-$2.5M
Muzzin $1M, but RFA next year.
-----------------------------------
$14.660M for top-four

As you can see, this is what top teams pay their defense. We come close to CHI territory, and that is fine by me. We have some kids coming up that could be on an ELC and save us money we pay Klein in our bottom six.



I'm somewhat disappointed in Staal, always thought he'd become what McDonagh has.
That being said, the market will set with Staal can get, and that will be a hefty pay raise.
UFA means everything here.

He would be had not he been ailed with concussions and an eye injury. When you consider that, and look at how he's played, that has to be looked at as a major win.

Chizz
07-04-2014, 01:50 PM
Chicago has 1 60 point defenseman 1 40 point defenseman 1 30 point and 1 25 point. Boston has 2 40 point defenseman and 2 25 point defenseman. LAK has 2 35 point and 1 25 point defenseman and the Rangers have McDonagh at 43 points and then Girardi being the closest to him with 24 points.

All of those teams defenseman contribute so much more on the offensive side than our defenseman yet we pay more for our defense than any of those teams.




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CreaseCrusader91
07-04-2014, 01:52 PM
Chicago has 1 60 point defenseman 1 40 point defenseman 1 30 point and 1 25 point. Boston has 2 40 point defenseman and 2 25 point defenseman. LAK has 2 35 point and 1 25 point defenseman and the Rangers have McDonagh at 43 points and then Girardi being the closest to him with 24 points.

All of those teams defenseman contribute so much more on the offensive side than our defenseman yet we pay more for our defense than any of those teams.




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It is a different style of play. Rangers have played defensive for the last few years. Last year was only year one under a more offensive minded, mobile Vigneault. There were growing pains, and they will be better equipped this season.

Drew a Penalty
07-04-2014, 01:54 PM
I'm somewhat disappointed in Staal, always thought he'd become what McDonagh has.
That being said, the market will set with Staal can get, and that will be a hefty pay raise.
UFA means everything here.

He was on his way in that direction before his injury though he lacks McDonagh's skating and offensive skills.

Staal is going to get paid by someone, but not us. If Brooks Orpik can get $5.5M as a shutdown defenseman with problems, so can Staal. I'd ship him off at some point before he hits UFA to get something for him. Then start easing in the kids to take on his role. Maybe Allen or Moore takes his role very short term while Skjei prepares for another season or two.

Chizz
07-04-2014, 01:55 PM
It is a different style of play. Rangers have played defensive for the last few years. Last year was only year one under a more offensive minded, mobile Vigneault. There were growing pains, and they will be better equipped this season.

I hope so, but we can't pay these guys because we think they could add more offensively. Especially when they have showed no signs of it. McDonagh is the only one you can realistically say will add more offensively.


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cousin
07-04-2014, 02:04 PM
Like I said in the other thread. Don't be surprised if staal flipped in a deal for a forward instead of Klein. I think it's the move that has to be made now before he walks and we get nothing. Someone will over pay him as ufa.

leetchy2
07-04-2014, 02:19 PM
I love Staal and also feel he's an integral part of the team. Really wish we could turn back the clock and have Dubi & Artie instead of Nash. That would solve our 3C and 2LW positions. I prefer to retain home-grown talent as much as possible.

josh
07-04-2014, 02:42 PM
Why? Because he plays solid defense? He's had Girardi and Stralman as his partners. A lot of players would succeed with those 2 by their sides. There are 2 sides to a hockey player. Offense and defense. He plays solid defense and contributes very little offense. In order to get paid towards the top at your position, you need to play well on both sides of the puck.


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Pretty much the opposite of this post.

Lt. Dan
07-04-2014, 02:53 PM
Pretty much the opposite of this post.

:word:

Maybe he's confusing him with Girardi :p

Chizz
07-04-2014, 03:19 PM
People seem to forget how long it took him to get back to the player he was before injuries and frankly I don't believe he's back yet. It's amazing how if he was another teams FA, you'd all be crying about his past concussions and eye injury but because he's a Ranger he's exempt from that discussion? He's shown signs of getting back to the player he once was. There were many times where he looked slow and got beat in the playoffs. I just don't believe he's a $5 mil player. I don't believe Girardi is either.


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RangersFan
07-04-2014, 03:25 PM
I just cant see how Staal can get 6 mil+. He is a great shutdown dman but has no offense whatsoever. I would offer him 5 years at 5 mil

josh
07-04-2014, 03:28 PM
People seem to forget how long it took him to get back to the player he was before injuries and frankly I don't believe he's back yet. It's amazing how if he was another teams FA, you'd all be crying about his past concussions and eye injury but because he's a Ranger he's exempt from that discussion? He's shown signs of getting back to the player he once was. There were many times where he looked slow and got beat in the playoffs. I just don't believe he's a $5 mil player. I don't believe Girardi is either.


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Rewatch the first 2 rds of the playoffs when he was by far the best dman on this team. Without him, we don't get through Philly or Pittsburgh.

josh
07-04-2014, 03:29 PM
I just cant see how Staal can get 6 mil+. He is a great shutdown dman but has no offense whatsoever. I would offer him 5 years at 5 mil

Obviously the deal needs to be reasonable.
But he's not the type of dman you can find on the FA market for cheap

Drew a Penalty
07-04-2014, 04:05 PM
People seem to forget how long it took him to get back to the player he was before injuries and frankly I don't believe he's back yet.

That's a tough thing to say. I think he's back 100%, but not 100% in the way we'd want him to be. Staal isn't going to ever be what he once was. His injuries have affected him in such a way that he can't return to what he once was. In terms of his capabilities after injuries, I think he's absolutely recovered to his fullest extent. He's never going to get his vision back to what it was.

I don't think his injuries exempt him from any discussion. Frankly, I would look to move Staal, but I wouldn't discredit him in some of the ways you have. His injuries are certainly a cause for concern as is his asking price. The Rangers have three defensemen locked up for a rather long term, I'm including Klein here, and have major defensive prospects coming through the system. Staal seems like someone that would be the odd man out given that he's approaching free agency. He's going to want to get paid and he'll probably want to get paid as the former All Star defenseman that he once was, but that player is gone.

Puck Head
07-04-2014, 04:25 PM
Rewatch the first 2 rds of the playoffs when he was by far the best dman on this team. Without him, we don't get through Philly or Pittsburgh.

Not really saying much with the way McDonagh was playing, (which lead to Girardi's play).
He essentially was better then Stralman for 10 games.

As soon as AV attempted to match Stralman and Staal with the other teams top forwards, it kind of exposed them.
Luckily McDonagh came back to form.

josh
07-04-2014, 04:32 PM
Not really saying much with the way McDonagh was playing, (which lead to Girardi's play).
He essentially was better then Stralman for 10 games.

As soon as AV attempted to match Stralman and Staal with the other teams top forwards, it kind of exposed them.
Luckily McDonagh came back to form.

Are you ok with giving Staal a deal similar to Girardis? That's essentially what it will be. I'm fine with that.

AmericanJesus
07-04-2014, 04:36 PM
It's a shame with Staal, because the offense was there. You look at the two years before the injuries started and he was at 27 and then 29 points in consecutive seasons.

I'd trade Staal for value before the season starts, but if I'm keeping him through the season and we're rolling, I'm not moving him at the deadline. I'd just as soon stick with him and risk him walking as a UFA. That said, if he has an injury free season and raises his game another level, I'd bring him back at around $5M, but the deal wouldn't be more than 3-4 years.

Puck Head
07-04-2014, 05:03 PM
Are you ok with giving Staal a deal similar to Girardis? That's essentially what it will be. I'm fine with that.

I don't think that number gets it done.
He's at 4 million per season now.

josh
07-04-2014, 07:01 PM
It's a shame with Staal, because the offense was there. You look at the two years before the injuries started and he was at 27 and then 29 points in consecutive seasons.

I'd trade Staal for value before the season starts, but if I'm keeping him through the season and we're rolling, I'm not moving him at the deadline. I'd just as soon stick with him and risk him walking as a UFA. That said, if he has an injury free season and raises his game another level, I'd bring him back at around $5M, but the deal wouldn't be more than 3-4 years.
We contemplated paying Stralman 4/4.5. How could you pass up Staal at slightly more?

Respecttheblue
07-04-2014, 08:08 PM
I don't think that number gets it done.
He's at 4 million per season now.

I look at stall as a heart and soul/identity of the NYR Rangers type of player, a quiet pillar of stability. But I have a hard time with a Girardi type Contract given how Marc is damaged goods and a concussion liability.

I love this guy, I think he's part of a winning team equation, but I hate to say it, I'd like to see what he's got next season before I hand over a Girardi type contract. I'd like to see him helping the offense a lot more again, but he started back at square one almost. Maybe he might be getting going again, but at $6 million levels? He's only 27 so the time is ripe for a 5 year contract if we think he can still shutdown the leagues best for another 5 years and contribute again on offense. I have a lot of loyalty to Staal, I'll admit, and I might let it blind me to other options; but he's part of the reason this team is successful, despite the injuries.

The quiet way he goes about his business should probably not be mistaken for a lack of competitiveness.

Pete
07-04-2014, 09:44 PM
Staal is getting $6 in his next deal folks.

Valriera
07-04-2014, 10:01 PM
Staal is getting $6 in his next deal folks.

I'm not sure why people think he's getting less. Staal at $4-5M? This guy is a top 2 defenseman in this league playing second pairing because the Rangers' top 4 are easily the class of the league. You could make arguments for LA and some other teams, but the Rangers are right in the conversation and it's because all four of those guys are really solid players.

I don't buy all this stuff about Girardi either: he had an average season this year but the dude plays a boring game and was an all star. That should say something. He's not there because he's flashy, he's there because he gets his job done. He looked bad against LA but the guy can play and any other team in the league would love to have him.

With Stralman gone you can't dump Staal unfortunately. I think Klein is a solid player, but the real problem is that Dan Boyle is not a Stralman replacement. You can't pair Klein and Boyle and hope to be nearly as successful. We need Staal to anchor that second pairing so Boyle can play his game and so that Klein doesn't have to overachieve to fit our needs. I think you see how this goes at the deadline, but I don't see him getting traded unless we're tanking it this season and we want a draft pick.

BlueJay
07-04-2014, 10:43 PM
Staal is getting $6 in his next deal folks.

If not us, easily some where else and be on the 1st pairing.

Dunny
07-04-2014, 11:44 PM
I bet the fuckin Leafs would do 6.5.

RangersFan
07-05-2014, 10:55 AM
I bet the fuckin Leafs would do 6.5.


I'll trade him to Toronto for Kadri and Gardiner. They can have him for 6.5 mil

Slobberknocker
07-05-2014, 01:38 PM
i agree with rather paying stall over girardi. only reason that wasnt a consideration was due to the unfortunate injury history of stall. At least that's my personal opinion.

i just dont see us keeping stall. would be great if we could move him for a top center and bring up a kid like allen.

Ba Ba Bluey
07-05-2014, 02:31 PM
The only benefit I see in trading Staal is that it'd be one less name for people to butcher around here..

CreaseCrusader91
07-05-2014, 03:13 PM
The only benefit I see in trading Staal is that it'd be one less name for people to butcher around here..

Hey show Mark Stall some respect.

Puck Head
07-05-2014, 03:36 PM
Stall sucks.

RangersFan
07-05-2014, 04:21 PM
He made one spelling mistake. Relax

CreaseCrusader91
07-05-2014, 04:33 PM
He made one spelling mistake. Relax

It's a running joke on the forum. No one is targeting anyone.

Phil in Absentia
07-05-2014, 05:39 PM
The problem here is that, again, we're talking about buying all UFA-eligible years from this player, and the market for him is in that $5M to $6M range based on deals signed by comparable players.

Brooks Orpik $5.5M over five years
Dan Girardi $5.5M over six years
Jay Bouwmeester $5.4M over five years
Andrew MacDonald $5.0M over six years

Wouldn't shock me to see the Rangers essentially duplicate the Girardi contract for Staal and call it a day, and potentially add another year to allow their term expiration dates to be in the same year.

RangersFan
07-05-2014, 05:43 PM
It's a running joke on the forum. No one is targeting anyone.


Didnt know, my bad.

RangersFan
07-05-2014, 05:44 PM
The problem here is that, again, we're talking about buying all UFA-eligible years from this player, and the market for him is in that $5M to $6M range based on deals signed by comparable players.

Brooks Orpik — $5.5M over five years
Dan Girardi — $5.5M over six years
Jay Bouwmeester — $5.4M over five years
Andrew MacDonald — $5.0M over six years

Wouldn't shock me to see the Rangers essentially duplicate the Girardi contract for Staal and call it a day, and potentially add another year to allow their term expiration dates to be in the same year.


i agree. 5.5 for Staal is more than fair

Puck Head
07-05-2014, 06:05 PM
Didnt know, my bad.

Started with me I believe, I have a terrible habit of destroying any names with more then 4 letters or 2 syllables.

RangersFan
07-05-2014, 06:09 PM
Started with me I believe, I have a terrible habit of destroying any names with more then 4 letters or 2 syllables.


Lol it happens

CreaseCrusader91
07-05-2014, 06:58 PM
Didnt know, my bad.

No that's fine, just wanted to provide context.

Puck Head
07-05-2014, 07:09 PM
Seriously, "how cares".

Slobberknocker
07-06-2014, 08:53 AM
we could always bring up macalrath.

josh
07-06-2014, 09:27 AM
Seriously, "how cares".

You mean Howe?

Future
07-07-2014, 11:31 AM
You're thinking along the same lines as I am. I believe Staal and Girardi really helped each other. They had great chemistry. I don't believe Girardi should have been given such a lucrative contract. I would've been ok with $4.5 mil. At the time I didn't think it was a terrible contract but in such a short period of time it's become more apparent that he was overpaid. I really don't want to go down the same road with Staal.

I think Staal, to be honest, is more talented than Girardi, though, and has more upside. Staal is still only, what, 27? I don't think he's always played as well as G, in part because of injuries. But having said that, I think that both G and Stralman were made better playing with Marc, not the other way around.

I have no problem giving stall $5 mil. I don't think $20 mil on the blueline on a team that wins with its defense is too much, especially when you have three guys who are legit first pair defensemen.

In a perfect world, I'd actually like to see Staal paired with Girardi and McIlrath with McDonagh a year or two from now. Might be wishful thinking, but I think that's how you'd get the most out of all those guys.