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View Full Version : Cup Final to the Cup Viewing Party?



jsm7302
07-01-2014, 08:57 PM
Maybe a merge-able topic but we just lost a large part of a team whom just went to a Cup Final. How are we replacing Richards & Pouilots production? Dan Boyle upgraded Stralmans spot but I am extremely concerned we may have downgraded quite a bit. Hope AV works some magic with this roster. Discuss.....:banghead:

Phil in Absentia
07-01-2014, 09:00 PM
I'll ask you the same thing I asked RangersFan — what is/was your solution, then?

To sign Pouliot to a five-year/$20M contract? To give Boyle an increased role his play doesn't warrant? To risk recapture and not buyout Richards? To give Strålman the same money we're paying Boyle for a third of the point production?

I see a lot of people complaining (it's day one, mind you), but no one willing to offer what they would have done instead.

jsm7302
07-01-2014, 09:10 PM
I did not mean to come off as complaining but more concerned. I don't think retaining any of the contracts those players got would have been a good idea. My plan of attack would consist of packaging JT Miller, Klein and a 2nd for Joe Thornton and (insert name here). Move Allen into our third pair. Just my suggestion.

Cash or Czech?
07-01-2014, 09:13 PM
I don't think San Jose accepts that trade, TBH. Plus we're so out of picks and prospects we can't really afford to trade the few that we have.

Phil in Absentia
07-01-2014, 09:14 PM
I did not mean to come off as complaining but more concerned. I don't think retaining any of the contracts those players got would have been a good idea. My plan of attack would consist of packaging JT Miller, Klein and a 2nd for Joe Thornton and (insert name here). Move Allen into our third pair. Just my suggestion.

Which would have been shot down in a heart beat, because Thornton is still not waiving his No-Trade Clause in the first place.

jsm7302
07-01-2014, 09:16 PM
I thought he was willing to waive to come to NY.

RangersFan
07-01-2014, 09:16 PM
I'll ask you the same thing I asked RangersFan — what is/was your solution, then?

To sign Pouliot to a five-year/$20M contract? To give Boyle an increased role his play doesn't warrant? To risk recapture and not buyout Richards? To give Strålman the same money we're paying Boyle for a third of the point production?

I see a lot of people complaining (it's day one, mind you), but no one willing to offer what they would have done instead.

For the record, if we resigned our guys to those contracts, i would have puked

Vodka Drunkenski
07-01-2014, 09:17 PM
Biting my tongue really hard right now

RichieNextel305
07-01-2014, 09:18 PM
Am I the only one who thought we did well for ourselves today given our current cap situation?

jsm7302
07-01-2014, 09:18 PM
Biting my tongue really hard right now
Let it fly. Haha

Gunnar Stahl
07-01-2014, 09:19 PM
We did as best as we could. But losing Boyle, Richards, Stral, and Pou is gonna hurt. We cant deny that, we lost a good core.

On the bright side, I thought our draft was fantastic.

Vodka Drunkenski
07-01-2014, 09:21 PM
Let it fly. Haha

No, I'll get banned and I've worked to change my attitude here.

Captain Clutch
07-01-2014, 09:21 PM
I didn't see much wrong with today. Signing of glass was crap but i didn't think we'd keep Moore and Boyle. Boyle wanted more of the role that he was now sharing with Moore and he got to be in his wife's hometown. i don't think he was staying a Ranger. Stralman clearly wanted more years and a bit more actual income than the Rangers wanted to give, so he goes to Tampa where the tax won't bother him

As for Pouliot...that deal is just awful. He went for the check. There was not much this team could have done, but it's not over. they're still going to work on getting 2 new players. i don't see anything to really complain or be worried about yet. 9 and a half hours into free agency and so many are doom and gloom.

Phil in Absentia
07-01-2014, 09:22 PM
I thought he was willing to waive to come to NY.

According to whom? Last I remember, he had no intention to waive his NTC for New York, or otherwise.


Am I the only one who thought we did well for ourselves today given our current cap situation?

Nope. Dave and I have both said similar things today.

Vodka Drunkenski
07-01-2014, 09:26 PM
Am I the only one who thought we did well for ourselves today given our current cap situation?

Nope. At first I was confused about the Glass singing with trading Dorsett but at the end of the day, we still got 2 picks out of it. Boyle at 2 years is a safe risk signing, if that makes sense.

Phil in Absentia
07-01-2014, 09:30 PM
Nope. At first I was confused about the Glass singing with trading Dorsett but at the end of the day, we still got 2 picks out of it. Boyle at 2 years is a safe risk signing, if that makes sense.

Dorsett trade? Four, actually.

Got a third-rounder for him (85th — Keegan Iverson) which allowed the Rangers to trade their third (89th) to Washington for two fourths (104th — Ryan Mantha, 118th — Igor Shesterkin) which allowed them to trade their fourth (119th) for two fifths (122nd — Richard Nejezchleb, 140th — Daniel Walcott).

That trade got them four draft picks, in short, where they only had two originally.

Vodka Drunkenski
07-01-2014, 09:33 PM
Well yeah but you get what I'm saying.

jsm7302
07-01-2014, 09:38 PM
So you guys think we will be able to make up the production from Richards and Pouliot with the current roster or do you see more moves for more goals in the coming days/months?

Vodka Drunkenski
07-01-2014, 09:40 PM
It's July 1st. Take a seat, put some sunblock on, grab a beer and relax

Ranger Lothbrok
07-01-2014, 10:00 PM
We went to the SCFs. Fortunately, that means that means almost all of our young guns have already been to the biggest dance there is, which is valuable for the rest of their careers. Unfortunately, that necessarily means that several of our guys came up huge, and the entire world saw it. There was just no possible way, salary-wise, to keep the entire roster together. Not when every single player was getting better offers elsewhere.

For the money we had, and for the options that were available, we did well for ourselves. We brought Moore back, who IMO was the glue that made that 4th line work. I'm confident he can work wonders with whoever he plays with. Nobody was talking about the "best fourth line in the league" before this season. We needed a PP QB to replace Richards, but there weren't any Drew Doughtys on the free agency. We got the best offensive defenseman available, and even better, it's a guy who wanted to come here and took less money to do it.

We were smart, and judicious, with our contracts today. We made efforts to address obvious needs while working with our cap situation and what was available. When your choices are between knowingly getting worse and at least trying to get better, I'll take the latter. As for the Thornton thing, it wasn't going to happen. He doesn't want to go anywhere. And even if he did, the amount we would have to give up would be prohibitively expensive, especially in light of some of our recent trades.

What happens when we don't win a Cup this season, our two best offensive players are 39 and 35, we're in salary cap hell, and we have absolutely zero coming through the system because we traded it all? At some point you have to stop trying to force it and think about your future. Thinking about our future and exercising patience got us to where we are now. We've already gotten away from that and back to our old ways somewhat. There's no point in completely blowing up our future for a slow, 34 year-old who disappears in the playoffs.

This isn't Neil Smith adding the final pieces to a roster that already featured Leetch, Messier, Graves, Kovalev, Zubov, Beuk, Richter, etc.. This is a continual work in progress. We had to walk a fine line of being smart while trying to get better. I think we did that. And I think Phil's question is very telling, and easily sums up everything I just said: what were the other options? If you aren't happy, what else was there to do?

Phil in Absentia
07-01-2014, 10:02 PM
So you guys think we will be able to make up the production from Richards and Pouliot with the current roster or do you see more moves for more goals in the coming days/months?

I'll let you know my feeling on the team in October, not July.

jsm7302
07-01-2014, 10:06 PM
I'll let you know my feeling on the team in October, not July.
Good response.

jsm7302
07-01-2014, 10:07 PM
It's July 1st. Take a seat, put some sunblock on, grab a beer and relax
Even better advice. [emoji106]

RichieNextel305
07-01-2014, 10:42 PM
Nope. At first I was confused about the Glass singing with trading Dorsett but at the end of the day, we still got 2 picks out of it. Boyle at 2 years is a safe risk signing, if that makes sense.

The way I see it, we lost a little and gained a little with the Boyle for Stralman swap. We gain more offense, while losing a little defense. That being said, Boyle's defense isn't putrid, and his offense is still pretty good.

The only one of our UFA's who I couldn't stomach to see leave was Moore, and he was re-signed. We replaced Boyle/Dorsett with a guy in Glass who brings physicality, can PK, fight, etc. So I don't mind that.

Still need help up front, and like Gorton said, the search for that is on-going.

All in all, not a bad July 1.

TwoMinutesForNothing
07-01-2014, 10:49 PM
Here's what some people aren't realizing when they are talking about replacing Richards' production. It's been replaced. Dan Boyle replaces it. 20 of Richard's points came on the PP, Boyle will fill that role. That was the part of Richards' game that was going to be tough to replace. At even strength he was nothing special, in fact a lot the time he was just flat out shitty. I don't see it as a stretch to think that JT Miller or some other addition couldn't replicate or even improve on his even strength effectiveness.

Boyle also replaces, maybe upgrades, Stralman on D due to offense. His D will be fine paired with Staal. Glass replaces Dorsett just fine, and Lindberg will fill in for Boyle, we'll see what happens there, but he's a very capable player. We just have to replace Pouliot's production which will likely be there focus with a short term deal to a guy like Heatley or Penner or somebody else. He's replaceable, Zuc and Brass made him to begin with.

The way I see it we are just as good, if not better due to the offensive boost of Boyle and the experience and growth that last year will give our young guys. Not worried at all, think Slats did a great job today.

RichieNextel305
07-01-2014, 10:56 PM
People have to factor in St. Louis for a full year, Kreider's 2nd full year and Nash has no where to go but up.

RangersFan
07-01-2014, 11:34 PM
Will Nash score some damn goals?

Pete
07-01-2014, 11:36 PM
Here's what some people aren't realizing when they are talking about replacing Richards' production. It's been replaced. Dan Boyle replaces it. 20 of Richard's points came on the PP, Boyle will fill that role. That was the part of Richards' game that was going to be tough to replace. At even strength he was nothing special, in fact a lot the time he was just flat out shitty. I don't see it as a stretch to think that JT Miller or some other addition couldn't replicate or even improve on his even strength effectiveness.

Boyle also replaces, maybe upgrades, Stralman on D due to offense. His D will be fine paired with Staal. Glass replaces Dorsett just fine, and Lindberg will fill in for Boyle, we'll see what happens there, but he's a very capable player. We just have to replace Pouliot's production which will likely be there focus with a short term deal to a guy like Heatley or Penner or somebody else. He's replaceable, Zuc and Brass made him to begin with.

The way I see it we are just as good, if not better due to the offensive boost of Boyle and the experience and growth that last year will give our young guys. Not worried at all, think Slats did a great job today.

While I don't mind the Boyle signing, I don't agree he'll be "fine" with Staal. Staal and Stralman got tough assignments and Boyle just can't handle that anymore.

TwoMinutesForNothing
07-01-2014, 11:49 PM
While I don't mind the Boyle signing, I don't agree he'll be "fine" with Staal. Staal and Stralman got tough assignments and Boyle just can't handle that anymore.

Idk I didn't watch much of him last season, but 21 mins a night in that conference. Who was he paired with last year? It seems like the same fit as with Stralman. Staal does most of the battling and Boyle uses his skating to get pucks out of the zone like Stralman did.

Pete
07-01-2014, 11:50 PM
Idk I didn't watch much of him last season, but 21 mins a night in that conference. Who was he paired with last year? It seems like the same fit as with Stralman. Staal does most of the battling and Boyle uses his skating to get pucks out of the zone like Stralman did.

He was minus 18 getting the easiest matchups, according to dem fancy stats.

Dunny
07-01-2014, 11:57 PM
Boyle makes me nervous, but yeah, thanks to this thread for talking me off a cliff. Gonna miss BGBB though. That one hurts.

TwoMinutesForNothing
07-01-2014, 11:57 PM
He was minus 18 getting the easiest matchups, according to dem fancy stats.

Yeah I've seen that, but it depends who his partner was. Maybe he was responsible for some of that. I'm just wondering if Staal is better or worse than what he was playing with last season. We also have stronger goaltending to cover for more blunders than SJ did.

TwoMinutesForNothing
07-01-2014, 11:59 PM
He was minus 18 getting the easiest matchups, according to dem fancy stats.

And wait what does this mean cuz he was only -8 last year. He was +10 against tougher competition?

CreaseCrusader91
07-02-2014, 12:02 AM
Yeah I've seen that, but it depends who his partner was. Maybe he was responsible for some of that. I'm just wondering if Staal is better or worse than what he was playing with last season. We also have stronger goaltending to cover for more blunders than SJ did.

Vlassic and Braun were his two partners.

Pete
07-02-2014, 12:07 AM
Yeah I've seen that, but it depends who his partner was. Maybe he was responsible for some of that. I'm just wondering if Staal is better or worse than what he was playing with last season. We also have stronger goaltending to cover for more blunders than SJ did.that's a mistake, he was -8.

Looks like mostly Matt Irwin, who was +5, was his partner most of the time. Boyle's minus rating was way worse than any other Shark D, he was the only minus D.

Pete
07-02-2014, 12:09 AM
Vlassic and Braun were his two partners.

Nope.

http://leftwinglock.com/line-combinations/san-jose-sharks/?team=san-jose-sharks&strength=EV&gametype=ALL

CreaseCrusader91
07-02-2014, 12:12 AM
Nope.

http://leftwinglock.com/line-combinations/san-jose-sharks/?team=san-jose-sharks&strength=EV&gametype=ALL

OK it was Irwin and Vlassic. I asked a Sharks guy on Twitter and he said Vlassic and Braun

RangersFan
07-02-2014, 12:12 AM
Some shitty partners. Irwin and Hannan? lol

TwoMinutesForNothing
07-02-2014, 12:13 AM
that's a mistake, he was -8.

Looks like mostly Matt Irwin, who was +5, was his partner most of the time. Boyle's minus rating was way worse than any other Shark D, he was the only minus D.

That's what I was hoping because these advanced stats say that Irwin was much worse than Boyle.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/dashboard?team=sj&pos=D

Pete
07-02-2014, 12:17 AM
That's what I was hoping because these advanced stats say that Irwin was much worse than Boyle.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/dashboard?team=sj&pos=D
Yet he was a +5 and Boyle a -8 in the same situations...

http://www.extraskater.com/players/dashboard?team=sj&pos=D#player-usage-chart

Similar zone starts and QualComp.

TwoMinutesForNothing
07-02-2014, 12:29 AM
Yet he was a +5 and Boyle a -8 in the same situations...

http://www.extraskater.com/players/dashboard?team=sj&pos=D#player-usage-chart

Similar zone starts and QualComp.

I don't see how that's possible if they were playing together most of the time. To have different ratings they must have played apart and faced different competition, maybe they got tougher match-ups when Irwin played with Boyle and Irwin got easier match-ups when they were apart.

Also factor in the minus for 6 short handed goals allowed that there is a very good chance Boyle was on for and also empty net goals against, which Boyle was likely on for a good amount of and you might make up a good portion of the difference.

Pete
07-02-2014, 07:05 AM
I don't see how that's possible if they were playing together most of the time. To have different ratings they must have played apart and faced different competition, maybe they got tougher match-ups when Irwin played with Boyle and Irwin got easier match-ups when they were apart.

Also factor in the minus for 6 short handed goals allowed that there is a very good chance Boyle was on for and also empty net goals against, which Boyle was likely on for a good amount of and you might make up a good portion of the difference.

That's all very possible, but at the same time, you're using the same logic others used, defending the same type of player, who puts up the same numbers as a guy you spent 3 years comparing about. Just to keep perspective...

TwoMinutesForNothing
07-02-2014, 08:21 AM
That's all very possible, but at the same time, you're using the same logic others used, defending the same type of player, who puts up the same numbers as a guy you spent 3 years comparing about. Just to keep perspective...

Ask Nashville if he puts up the same numbers as Dan Boyle.

Pete
07-02-2014, 08:28 AM
Ask Nashville if he puts up the same numbers as Dan Boyle.

That's a cheap and disingenuous reply, and we both know it, and not even worth pursuing.

I'm not going to keep crushing the Boyle signing because I don't mind it. Let's just not pretend we're going to be as good defensively as last year; we probably aren't. But it's a trade off we might have to have made.

Kevin
07-02-2014, 08:53 AM
I think this is why you have to keep Klein. He'll be out there with staal occasionally and it will limit some of boyle's even strength time. This will have to happen because I assume that Boyle will be out there for long pp stretches and won't do much pking. Using them like this, which is almost inevitable, will make the d stronger imo.

RangersFan
07-02-2014, 11:35 AM
I think we get better offensively and a bit weaker defensively but sometimes thats how it works in hockey, cant have it both ways.

Respecttheblue
07-06-2014, 11:42 AM
We went to the SCFs. Fortunately, that means that means almost all of our young guns have already been to the biggest dance there is, which is valuable for the rest of their careers. Unfortunately, that necessarily means that several of our guys came up huge, and the entire world saw it. There was just no possible way, salary-wise, to keep the entire roster together. Not when every single player was getting better offers elsewhere.

For the money we had, and for the options that were available, we did well for ourselves. We brought Moore back, who IMO was the glue that made that 4th line work. I'm confident he can work wonders with whoever he plays with. Nobody was talking about the "best fourth line in the league" before this season. We needed a PP QB to replace Richards, but there weren't any Drew Doughtys on the free agency. We got the best offensive defenseman available, and even better, it's a guy who wanted to come here and took less money to do it.

We were smart, and judicious, with our contracts today. We made efforts to address obvious needs while working with our cap situation and what was available. When your choices are between knowingly getting worse and at least trying to get better, I'll take the latter. As for the Thornton thing, it wasn't going to happen. He doesn't want to go anywhere. And even if he did, the amount we would have to give up would be prohibitively expensive, especially in light of some of our recent trades.

What happens when we don't win a Cup this season, our two best offensive players are 39 and 35, we're in salary cap hell, and we have absolutely zero coming through the system because we traded it all? At some point you have to stop trying to force it and think about your future. Thinking about our future and exercising patience got us to where we are now. We've already gotten away from that and back to our old ways somewhat. There's no point in completely blowing up our future for a slow, 34 year-old who disappears in the playoffs.

This isn't Neil Smith adding the final pieces to a roster that already featured Leetch, Messier, Graves, Kovalev, Zubov, Beuk, Richter, etc.. This is a continual work in progress. We had to walk a fine line of being smart while trying to get better. I think we did that. And I think Phil's question is very telling, and easily sums up everything I just said: what were the other options? If you aren't happy, what else was there to do?

:repped: :repped:

I'm glad I came upon this post.

Last season I took a buckle up the seat belts, and just "go along for the ride, this could be a lot of fun approach" from the outset, not try to get too caught up in, or upset about the weak spots, just enjoy the positives.

The visit to the SCF has raised the bar for a lot of fan expectations now; but we got pillaged in free agency for our pleasure. The ironic thing, at least for me was that we didn't have an astonishingly strong team as the finals approached, just a very very good team that could compete with any other team on any given day, if it/they played their cards just right, and if everybody showed up and played to near to top of their potential, including Richards.

This season and off season I'm going to try to not get caught up in how we are fix the considerable damage (and maybe some silver lining in amnesty cap relief) of losing Richards' production that helped put us in a position to win (but not finish on the deal) Pouliot's great fit on the PBZ line, and Boyle's better-than-his-numbers presence in toughest series.

It is what it is.

Instead, I'll ready myself for a season that could again be "interesting," or could surprise, as it goes along, and one that could see some young players seize their opportunities or not. And I'll try to remember that Slat's work is never done -- and AV's ability to get the right players in place as the season matures, is not to be underestimated.

I'll also be looking to camp to see if any surprises emerge, and also will watch for the time of the season when AV casts off the Taylor Pyatts and Arron Ashams [after he's seen enough of what they can or cannot do] and he and Slats tinker with other prospects, players, whether it be JTMiller breaking out (hope reigns eternal), Lindberg, Kristo (we have a system for a reason), Haggerty (they seem quietly rather intent on this guy), and possible boom/bust surprises like Kostka, or foreign developments like Zamorsky, or future signings/trades (???? we know not who or what).

Future
07-07-2014, 12:45 PM
So you guys think we will be able to make up the production from Richards and Pouliot with the current roster or do you see more moves for more goals in the coming days/months?
Its not going to be bring in 2 new guys and get the same 87 points, I don't think that's realistic. But I still think they can easily be replaced...Richards more than Pouliot.

You figure Richards' 19 on the PP will be replaced by Boyle, which leaves 30ish for Miller to get even strength. I think he'll do that easily, as long as he plays with some other talent, which he should.

Pouliot only had like 8 even strenght goals, which shouldn't be too hard to replace regardless of who comes in. What will be tough is to find someone who has the skill but can also take some of that pressure off of Brassard and Zucc. I'm not sure who does that.

But if we're talking about points production, I think they are both pretty easily replaced. Plus I really like the speed that Miller will bring to the lineup whereas Richards looked really, really slow.